Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret

An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.

Comments

Biiig difference

[Richard_at_work]

I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox

Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99 for a new one. Anyone else spotting the difference here? They arent helping YOU, they are helping the independant garages to keep your car in good shape and help prevent a fatality or two.

Congress allowing reverse engineering of repair codes will allow third party diagnostics systems available at prices the independant can truely afford to pay. This makes them better at maintaining vehicles.

Re:Biiig difference

[PMuse]

I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.

It's not so odd. It just indicates that Midas, BP Procare, Tuffy, Meineke, Firestone, Sears, Merlin's, Speedy, Monroe, Penske, etc. have a more organized lobbying effort than all those big-time xbox modding companies out there.

They are making the case to congress that a lot of small businesses will be forced out by dealer repair departments if they cannot read the codes. They're movitated because this is a threat to a business they've had for decades, not just a wouldn't-it-be-fun idea.

There is a difference

[strictnein]

Most common use for modchips: pirating games (illegal)

Most common use for car codes: fixing your car (legal - but most likely won't be possible with future cars)

The similarity is that game makers make less money if you pirate a game (instead of buying it). Car dealers/manufacturers make less money if you fix your own car (and down pay for their overpriced service and "genuine rippof parts").

Re:There is a difference

[ddelrio]

Sorry, but I despise this argument. To use the "most common use" argument is weak. First of all, where's the evidence? The people I know with modded XBoxes use them primarily for streaming media.

Also, even if an illegal activity was the "most common" use, it still doesn't excuse limiting actual modding. Piracy is and should be illegal--but modifying physical hardware that you purchased should be legal. We can still own property in the US, right? Where's the crime?

If the music and software industries are losing money to piracy, they should concentrate on improving their business models rather than proposing legislation which limits the freedom and privacy of American citizens.

Re:There is a difference

[Gestahl]

Quoth Parent:

Most common use for modchips in computers: pirating games (illegal)

Quoth I:

Most common use for modchips in cars: circumvention of emissions/rev limiter/speed governor limitations. Many of these will make the cars illegal in some areas. Car mod chips are not illegal.

Try again.

"cheap" cars

[Mz6]

Wow... There is a lot of stuff going on in this story...Not to offend any Hyundai or Kia owners here...

First off, when purchasing a "cheap" car, you get what you pay for. Most of the commercials you see on TV for Kia, Hyundai's and offer the 10-year warranty are crap for this exact reason. The car, a 2002 model is still covered under the manufactuers warranty, however, there's some stipulations. In short, it doesn't cover "user error". Here's a college student who has had the car serviced 12 times for the same problem, and each time told the same thing. Depending on where she lives, she may need to check into her state's lemon law.

I help admin a Mazda 6 enthusiast site and have never heard of anything like this before regarding warranty problems. Any check engine light, whether the drivers fault or not is taken care of without a charge. Paying a $120 fee each time it gets services is ridiculous! Again, just another use to show you the hooks and gimmicks of buying "cheaper" cars thinking that a 10-year warranty will keep you safe from any problems. Our group was lucky. With the help of Mazda service mangers around the US, we were able to get a complete list of trouble codes posted. As was stated in the article the AutoXRay is a wonderful tool to help. It is fairly pricey, but if you have no other way of determining the problem, this would really help and saves on having the repair shop diagnose the problem for you. Instead alll it takes is this scanner to read the codes, determine the problem, and have them fix it. From the article...

"Bryan Hanks, who has taken his 2002 Toyota Prius to his local Houston dealership four times since a single sensor malfunctioned and the Check Engine signal prevented him from using the car's electronic display, said automakers should incorporate USB ports in dashboards to allow consumers to download error messages to a laptop."

Any legitimate scanner will allow you to also download a freeze frame and trouble codes to your laptop or monitor real-time data that may not be available to you through dashboard guages.

IMHO, if after 12 times, I think common sense has to play a big part in the determination process of what's going on. With the advent of cars having tons of microprocessors and computers on-board to control everything from real-time air/fuel ratios to your cabin temperature settings it's no wonder why CEL codes will light up for inane reasons, the gas cap one being the most common. When the reason shows up on the diagnostic computer it most likely shows a fuel leak (depending on car manufactuer). Out of perspective, it seems like a pretty serious problem. However, once all of the fuel lines have been pressure checked and show no leaks, the only problem could be with a loose gas cap. This can go 2 ways.. either she is taking it to the dumbest dealership service department or she is a complete twit herself.

Re:"cheap" cars

[stratjakt]

Well, what did the dealership tell the girl?

"There was a problem with the gas cap, $120 please" - leading her to assume they'd replaced/repaired it.

Or did they actually explain "There's a sensor that monitors the proper pressure in the gas tank, if it gets low that light comes on because it may be leaking. It was only getting low because you didnt twist the cap on tight enough."

I have a mitsubishi shitbox and have done the same thing. I know better, and when I see the light I take the cap off and put it back on tightly. I wouldnt expect everyone to know better. A bright red light on your dashboard that says "Check Engine" freaks people out with visions of being stranded on some dark street or desolate country road at 3 AM.

Besides, the point is, she paid 120 bucks a pop when the local garage probably wouldn't have charged her ANYTHING because they'd want her to come back.

People joke about the small-time crooked mechanic, but it's the big dealership chains that really stick it to you.

Or in other words...

[Mz6]

They are creating competition... If more service shops have these "codes" they are able to offer a better price than the dealership. This gives the consumer the choice of taking it there, having to pay less but also have less-experience machanics (for that particular model perhaps) work, or pay a slightly higher price and have the dealership do it. It creates a choice for the consumer rather than telling them they MUST go to the dealership to get it fixed.

traditional trades garner more "respect"

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Congress didn't grow up with the IT business, but they all knew the guy who owned the gas station on the corner. It is conceptually easier for a congressman to comprehend the needs of the local auto repair shop back home, than the needs of the geeks in his home district trying to run an IT business.

This does provide an opportunity to educate Congress by showing them that the needs of both professions with respect the DMCA (and other horrors) are basically very similar at heart.

Re:Biiig difference... to a Congressman

[OECD]

Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99

It probably has more to do with the number of Congressmen who own a car versus the number who own an XBox.