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Sun will Open Java's Source
bckrispi writes "An announcement from Sun spokesman Raghavan Srinivas indicates that, contrary to what we've heard in the past, Java will be Open-sourced. "We haven't worked out how to open-source Java, but at some point it will happen," Srinivas said."
so, java and solaris will be open source, and hardware will be free. so basically we'll be paying for our work?
Not to be a cynic, but "at some point" they will "somehow" figure out how to open source Java?
And at some point I'll somehow figure out how to make a million dollars while sitting at home playing my Playstation, too.
I fail to see how this qualifies as news.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I really can't see any good reason for Sun to open Java or Solaris. They won't accept patches unless the copyright is assigned to them, and Sun will have a license that wont allow code from GPL work to enter Solaris or Java and vice-versa. If they really did, I would take it as more of a "We Give-Up" move just before everything falls apart. I personally would hate to see Sun go.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Instead of waiting two years, do it now when it counts most. If Sun feels some degree of uncertainty, then test the waters by open sourcing selective parts of the JDK - especially the parts of the Java libraries that are widely perceived to be neglected.
The true source of java has been known for many long years now: "The best Java coffee is grown on the far eastern end of the island on five estates established by the Dutch government." Evidence.
warmest regards,
Juan Valdez
You gotta admire the effort Sun is making to even maintain Java, anymore... Bless their hearts.
It doesn't sound that challenging. Slap a CPL on it and dump it on SourceForge. I think they are trying to figure out a way to make it Open Source, yet still retain control over it and derive revenue from it. Sooner or later, they are going to realise that they only have three choices, none of which are very good (for Sun):
- but-we'll-call-it-open-source license which alienates the OSS crowd and causes open rebellion. Same outcome as #1, only quicker.
1. Java is not open-sourced and falls out of use like most closed standards eventually do.
2. Java is released as open-source and they lose control of it.
3. Java is released under a pussyfoot-shared-source-with-lots-of-restrictions
Overall, it doesn't look like Sun can win with this.
Unknown host pong.
Very Funny!
People often don't realize how expensive/lucrative Enterprise Support is compared to the cost of H/W and S/w. Companies charge as much as 29-35% of the product cost as support per year and support is never discounted. i.e companies give away s/w and h/w worth a million and charge say 290k per year in support.
Support/services is often the number 1 consideration in purchasing.
So, I would not be surprised if sun's net revnues do not decrese after they opensource all of their s/w, including OS.
Besides, why does Sun want to fix a bug for which there is no revenue tied? Sun might rather fix an obscure bug from a paid customer than fix the most popular bug. By opensourcing Java/ or OS, they will be opening a new maintenance channel for their platform while still making the same service revenues.
In our company, Sun support team is respected and our IS claims it is worth all the cost.
I think that people who worry themselves over the ominous and supposedly inevitable "fragmentation" really need to take a second look at things.
1-There are numerous examples of open source programming languages that have remained centralized and unfragmented, like Perl and Python.
2-Because java depends on a uniform standard and VM, any attempts to split off or fork the source tree will die miserably due to a lack of compatibility with the massive pool of existing code and classes.
3-In fact, there is actually LESS chance of fragmentation when Java lies in the hands of the public, first because it means that no one will start up a competing "openjava", a venture that would almost certainly lead to incompatibilities, and second because, as the example of the death of xfree86 shows, too much central and absolute control over software by a small group will inevitably anger developers and users alike, leading them to search for an alternative.
Honestly, this is slashdot. You people should have more faith in OSS.
Let's assume this isn't horseshit fed to the masses to keep using Java technology.
(eg. like dressing up in a Penguin suit while handing SCO a paper bag full of money under the table.)
From a business point of view, what's the point?
Mono is nearing release 1.0 and is a very attractive platform for developers. Releasing Java open source 3 years ago would have screwed Microsoft hard, but now I'm not so sure.
I still think open sourcing is the best strategic move for Sun, but I think they have no clue on how to exploit it. They will probably do something silly like release it under the IBM CPL since that's what their competitors are doing.
The best move for them is obviously to GPL it, and use a Trolltech style licensing model. GNU Classpath will naturally get in the way. (again, should have did it 3 years ago).
However, the COO, Johnathan Schwartz recently teased in the media that they might release Looking Glass, Sun's new 3D desktop widget toolkit as open source. I've seen it, it looks great.
If they GPL'd that as well, Sun might have a chance at getting a serious revenue stream happening.
I doubt this will happen though. Sun will keep withering out of fear and inertia. It's the nature of the beast.
The reason they don't know how long it'll take is likely due to licensing agreements, patent royalties, and other little issues encumbering the code, on top of the normal burocracy.
Inevitibly, in large organizations with large projects, some manager attempts to (and often succeeds in) shortcutting the development time by licensing or purchasing some outside code or technology. I would be surprised if Sun's implementation of Java was completely developed in house and/or completely owned without exception by Sun. They have to vet all the code and modules to be certian that they have the right to release Java. I doubt they'll release the unencumbered parts before it's all ready.
Further, there are likely to be patent and legal encumberances to the code which may prevent immediate release. It could even be that people along the line have said, "I'll patent this technique later, for right now it's a trade secret." There may yet be code in there which they can capitalize off of by patenting, while allowing for usage within java without charge.
And, of course, they have to make sure the company lawyers and accountants are satisfied with whatever terms they release it under. They may even wait until the SCO thing blows over if they really want to use the GPL (Unlikely).
So don't hold your breath. The ideal outcome would make one able to compile it for platforms which it does not yet run on natively and stable.
-Adam
It seems from analyzing sourceforge that Java seems to be doing quite all right within the OSS community just as they are. Coming a clear third behind C++ and C is not bad in terms of language use.
There is enough OSS built around Java to keep it alive in the OSS community and popularity as a whole is right across the board.
They do have real concerns about losing control. Usually, without too much hassle, Java can live up to its write once, (test and then) run everywhere. Will this be so if there are forked projects?
It would be great to get the OSS community in on improving Java but I can see why Sun want to remain in control.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
Remember that java isn't just the jvm or the class library source. It also includes JSSE, java's encryption framework which probably can't be open sourced (comercial restrictions, export laws, legal liabilities of possible changes to shipped trusted certificates...). I am sure there are other pieces that are sensitive as well. You wouldn't be able to use SSL out of the box with a JRE that didn't have a JSSE implementation.
"So you call this your free contry, tell me why it costs so much to live?" - Three Doors Down
Well, i'm not sure how sun is making a ton of money off of java now. They give the virtual machine as well as the web client away as it is. Maybe it is somethign to do with thier java desktop wich I asume won't be gpl'ed. Maybe if "opening the source" will get things runing faster and a little smoother There would be more of an market for thier desktop system.
AS far as running microsoft and liking it? Thats because it is there. Most people won't even look under the hood and care, with java, people are going out ang getting it so they know what is there and more of the people using it are the ones that would bitch about microsoft. The difference is the amount visible to the public. Microsofts users would have more that didn't care where java users would have more that did care.
Is it really that important to be able to distribute the built binaries for people? Without paying Sun for it, that is?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Java is managed by a standards organization. It's call the Java Community Process. Any individual can join for free and contribute to the Java standards. Companies can join for a reasonable cost. Everything that goes into Java is standardized by the JCP and every JCP standard is freely implementable.
.NET is better because it's an ECMA standard. He's too dense to understand that not all of .NET is part of the ECMA standard and it's not truly an open standard because although I can freely implement what the ECMA standard says, I can't do jack crap to change what's in the ECMA standard. The standard is controlled wholly by Microsoft.
Explain to me why we need ANSI or ISO?
A colleague of mine insists that
Explain to me how this is better than the JCP?
The JCP is already slow enough. The last thing Java needs is some bloated organization like ANSI or ISO to get involved.
By a strange set of circumstances I found myself, a little over a year ago, sitting in a small room with RMS and a standard-issue complement of corporate Win32 support slaves. A FOSS missionary had brought us all together.
I've been a GNU/Linux user since 1997. At home I am now exclusively a G/L user. Am gunning for that at work.
Yet, when RMS told the gathered geeks and semi-interested bystanders (and I paraphrase) I think one should be willing to use inferior free software instead of superior closed software (/paraphrase) I thought Bull fucking shit.
That was before SCO filed suit. That was before I paid enough attention to what's going down in the patent realm. That was before Redhat sold out freedom for whatever it is they think they're getting in exchange for freedom. (The money ain't worth it, guys. You know in your souls -- if you haven't sold them -- that it ain't.)
I was running Redhat then. I'm running Debian now. It's inferior in many respects. It's maddening in many respects. It's free. I'm free.
People who have more chops than I compile their own custom kernels and their own sets of GNU & other FOSS. That's not just freeom. That's power. That's one future that any user is free to choose.
I'm so grateful to those who code in the name of freedom. I am writing this to you on a computer that's as free as I know how to make it, because of Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds and thousands of like-minded coders.
If, in order to stay free, I have to sign an effing affidavit every time I log on, I will do it.
And I know the coders who believe in what they have taught me to believe in will take the time to certify their code. It's a *very* small price for freedom.
QT/KDE Java already exists.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
``That said, I hope java doesn't end up fragmented.''
You mean, more fragmented than it already is with Sun, Microsoft, Apple, Kaffe, gcj, Latte, Jikes, and so on and so forth all providing their own implementations?
``One of the really nice things about java is that despite a few problems, it's very portable.''
Oh yes. About as portable as C, Python, Fortran, ADA, Pascal, Common LISP, Scheme, PHP, Ocaml and a plethora of other languages.
``I've never personally had a problem moving my code from one machine to another.''
You lucky bastard. You must never have moved your code developed with a modern Sun JDK to a machine using Microsoft's VM. Or an old (1.0.x or 1.1.x) Sun JVM, for that matter. Or tried running AWT code on pretty much any of the open source JVMs, which are kind of your only choice if your machine is not x86, PowerPC or SPARC, or the operating system is anyting besides GNU/Linux, Solaris, Mac OS, OS X, or Windows.
Java is a dream that never came true:
1. Write once, run everywhere is a myth, because you need a good VM and class libraries, which are only available for a few platforms.
2. The official distribution is bloated to the top and runs slow even with JIT compilation. Java programs use lots of memory. This makes Java unnatractive even if you can guaratee it will work on your target system.
3. GUIs in Java are a nightmare. AWT can be a bitch to code for, lacking many useful components. Swing uses "pure Java" widgets, which are slow and don't fit well with the native widgets on your system. SWT ought to be better, but is not included in the distribution, so if you want it, you need more bloat.
4. High performance apps are out. GUI apps are a nightmare. What's left? Simple command line utilities? Nah, much better written in a different language. Whomever heard of multi-second startup time for hello world, and BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in)); before you can do something useful with standard input?
Oh yeah, it runs on cellphones. At least, the very much scaled down J2ME does. But don't expect good performance, and don't expect software written for some cellphone to run on yours. It's the same story again.
Java has failed.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
There are various implementations of Java with truly good enhancements, like real templates, design-by-contract and other good stuff
There are two dangers to this:
1) Incompatible forks. Java is supposed to be "write once, run anywhere". Different implementations of a common standard can be good. Diverging language features can't be.
2) At heart (without the class libraries) Java is still a small, simple, clean, readable, easy to learn language. Enough well-meaning enhancements, and it could end up looking like perl. Ugg.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
- If they use the "sharing is not theft" BSD licence, then someone conceivably could take Java, modify it just enough to make it incompatible with the old version, and release their modified version -- let's call it EvilJava because I can't think of anything better -- closed-source. By writing plenty of code that only runs on EvilJava, someone can effectively usurp control of the market -- this, presumably, is the "nightmare scenario" Sun is keenest to avoid.
- If they use the "not sharing is theft" GPL, then nobody can release a closed-source modification. Somebody could conceivably write a "JavaTwoPlus" incompatible with plain old Java, but it would necessarily be GPL. We have to assume that GPL automatically means cross-platform, since there would be nothing to prevent Sun themselves from porting JavaTwoPlus to any other platform for which a version of GCC exists.
- If they go for a Pine-like licence, then nobody will be allowed to release modified binaries to the general public -- whether EvilJava or JavaTwoPlus -- in such a way that they could be confused with the "official" Java. Anyone wishing to create an improved Java would be confined to releasing patches for the source. As wonderful as this looks in theory, it's a nightmare in practice because of the problems it creates for distributors. Some Linux distros already don't include Pine, precisely for fear of running afoul of its licencing terms {You typically have to modify any source package ever so slightly to get it to work with your own distribution; that's what the configure process is about. The actual Pine licence doesn't make it clear that such modification is permitted. Even if the University of Washington turns a blind eye to some distros putting out a patched pine, there is nothing to say that one day it won't start coming down hard on distributors}. Sun presumably wants Java to be distributed widely, so should word the licence very carefully if following this route -- there is a real risk of alienating distributors.
The question boils one of balance between code integrity and the benefits of Open Source. BSD doesn't assure code integrity or cross-platform-ness. Pine-like assures integrity but impacts negatively on distributability. GPL blocks any outright threats to code integrity and cross-platform compatibility -- but potentially leaves Sun with hard work to do.All that being said, if Java has enough functionality already then nobody will really feel the need to add anything else -- which, of course, is where the greatest single threat to cross-platform-ness comes from. Those few who do have special requirements which can best be met through modifications, probably will not be releasing their modified Java versions into the mainstream.
Sun has up to now played the role of a protective parent, shielding the child (Java) from the worst elements of the outside, adult world (closed-source vendors who would take a beautiful product and distort it for their own ends). But children do eventually grow up; and after a point, when they have learned the dangers of the world, it becomes wrong not to set them free into that very world -- for all its dangers, it is still a beautiful place. If Sun has done everything right -- or even done just enough right -- then there is nothing to fear when Java makes the transistion from tightly-reined, closed-source child to well-balanced, Open Source adult with an existence of its own that does not depend on Sun.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
The shitstorms are because Die-Hard Linux geeks/distros want to have everything on their computer/CDs under the GPL.
I don't believe you. Do those distros ship without Perl and Apache, which are both not GPL licensed?
IF they release it under the GPL, I see this making the open-source world a lot friendlier to Java.
Open-source != Free. A significant group of people prefers a BSD-like license over the GPL. A GPL-compatible BSD-like license will be usable by both GPL and non-GPL programmers. Most programming language implementations do not use the GPL, and that is probably for a good reason:
Python - BSD-like license
Perl - Artistic
Gcc - GPL (but glibc is LGPL!)
Zope - BSD-like
Php - BSD-like
Scheme - BSD-like
Ada - Artistic
Eiffel - BSD-like
TCL/TK - BSD-like
Furthermore, the GPL may be a serious problem for Sun. Not all Java code is necessarily copyrighted by them. They might have licensed some code from others. With a BSD-like license, they can just keep those parts with their original license. A GPLed Java would require relicensing, which Sun cannot do. Another problem may be patents. Sun owns quite a few Java-related patents and the GPL requires them to give everyone a free license to those patents. That would allow MS to use those patents in their software and even to build another evil Java clone, but then, Sun wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Another patent problem may be that third party patents cannot be used in GPLed software (even though Sun can license it). So Sun might not be able to include some functionality in a GPLed Java.
The Drowned and the Saved - Primo Levi