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Interview with SubEthaEdit Developer

Posted by pudge on from the collaboration-is-for-mortals dept.

WaxPoetic writes "There is a fun interview with the developers of SubEthaEdit, the only collaborative editor for Mac OS X. Topics covered include Apple slowing developing, BEEP, why they kept a free version, being a German Mac user, hopes for the Tiger release, and their hatred of metal interfaces."

60 comments

  1. The joys of collaborative editting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wouldn't it be great to edit the same document, live, in realtime, together with everyone in your group?

    No. Fuck, it would be chaos.

    1. Re:The joys of collaborative editting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chaos? You misspelled "IRC".

    2. Re:The joys of collaborative editting by Skibbering · · Score: 3, Funny

      I dunno.. Wouldn't mind seeing a /. thread done live with SEE! That would be so ..BEOWULF CLUSTER?All your text are belong to us!I FOR ONE, WELCOME OUR NEW TEXT EDITING OVERLORDS!I totally pwn SubEthaEdit!IT SUX!it rox!COOL...

  2. Really good program by Llywelyn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I don't use the networking capabilities of SubethaEdit, it has largely replaced BBEdit for me as my "editor of choice" for programming. Sleek, lightweight, and efficient (not to mention free for noncommercial use), it has a lot going for it.

    I did have to write a python script that would work like bbedit's command line tool (with a few of the same options, such as -c), but once that was taken care of I started using it as my primary text editor.

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    1. Re:Really good program by daeley · · Score: 3, Informative
      I did have to write a python script that would work like bbedit's command line tool (with a few of the same options, such as -c), but once that was taken care of I started using it as my primary text editor.

      A shortcut for that if you don't mind simple capabilities would be to add an alias to your .bash_profile, a la:
      alias see='open -a SubEthaEdit'
      Then you can open/edit a file thusly:
      see foo.html
      which will open the file in SubEthaEdit for editing.
      --
      I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    2. Re:Really good program by Llywelyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      I tried this, but it didn't quite do it for me--it wouldn't let me open a file that didn't already exist (something I do all of the time), for example

      I was also very used to the syntax of BBEdit's command line tool, so I wanted to type "subetha -c filename.m"

      An alias is a good solution, but wasn't quite enough.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    3. Re:Really good program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      Uh-

      They have a shell script listed in the FAQ on their site:
      See if this does it.

    4. Re:Really good program by Llywelyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, it is new with 2.0 :-)

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    5. Re:Really good program by Goo.cc · · Score: 3, Informative

      "I did have to write a python script that would work like bbedit's command line tool"

      I e-mailed the creators of SubEthaEdit about this, as I would like to use it was an editor for Mutt, and they told me that a command line tool for SubEthaEdit is in the works.

    6. Re:Really good program by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

      Evidently they just released one last month.

      http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/goodies/ se e.zip

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    7. Re:Really good program by javax · · Score: 2, Informative
      try this one in your ~/.bashrc:
      subetha() {
      if ! test -f ${1}; then
      touch ${1};
      fi;
      open -a SubEthaEdit ${1}
      }

      this will work with files that not yet exist.
  3. subethaedit style editors by OmniVector · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those who don't know, SubEthaEdit is a fantastic text editor for the mac. It's main benefit is the ability to do live text edit collaboration with many other users, and the ability to find these users with rendezvous (zero-setup networking). The program has a great niche in things like notetaking. I and my group members for a particular human interface class studied it in greater detail.

    --
    - tristan
    1. Re:subethaedit style editors by thulsey · · Score: 1
      I would LOVE to try this collaboration thing everyone raves about, but can't get rendezvous to work.

      I don't get it.... Rendezvous seems to work for EVERYONE else that tries it... Yet my Macs at home, though they can talk to each other, are all on the same little subnet, etc.

      Til this works I can't give good feedback as to how useful something is.

      Guess I should just shut up, eh?

    2. Re:subethaedit style editors by Mononoke · · Score: 2, Informative
      I would LOVE to try this collaboration thing everyone raves about, but can't get rendezvous to work.
      Have you got port 5353 open everywhere? If you've got any firewall (including Apple's) running, it might not be.

      "Well Known" TCP and UDP Ports Used By Apple Software Products.

      --
      NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
  4. Five days earlier by mattkime · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/09/133823 4&mode=thread&threshold=-1

    --
    Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
    1. Re:Five days earlier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic
      /.-apple step 1) Scan MacSlash for a good story

      /.-apple step 2) Regurgitate submission to /.

      There...is...no...step...3. There's no step 3 (chuckle)

      /.-apple step 4) Profit?

  5. Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    Why not just use Vim? It has a client-server feature as well. Plus, the license is truly free, as in no restrictions on commercial use.

    1. Re:Pfft by Llywelyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know why I am bothering to respond to an AC...

      Vim is not *nearly* as elegant, integrated, nor as clean as subethaedit is.

      First of all, Vim is still based on vi and requires that you know a variety of interesting things on the keyboard before you can effectively use it (what happens when I hit "d" depends on the mode--when I hit "d" in subethaedit I see a "d").

      Second, it is very much not a Cocoa application. Services do not work, it has a nonstandard highlight for a MacOS X program (Carbon or Cocoa).

      It neither looks nor feels like a native MacOS X app. Little things, such as the command-keys being listed in the menus, just aren't there. Example: I quit using command-q and Vim gives me an ugly dialogue that reads "Save changes to 'Untitled'?" with the options Yes, No, and Cancel (in that order, yes default). The escape button does nothing.

      With SubethaEdit when I close a window I get a standard MacOS X close dialogue, showing the app's icon and saying "Do you want to save the changes you made in the document 'Untitled'? Your changes will be lost if you don't save them" with the options Don't Save, Cancel, and Save, in that order with Save as the default. The escape button cancels.

      A thousand little things like that really add up.

      The way preferences are handled, color syntax modes, an actual toolbar, indicators as to where the cursor is and basic information about the encoding of the file at my fingertips, the ability to highlight a block of code and indent it all or comment it all, showing line numbers or invisible characters, change how lines are terminated...

      The list of differences--both functional and cosmetic, big and small--that make SubethaEdit a better choice than Vim for most Mac developers is enormous.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    2. Re:Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. I was going to respond to the parent post, but you said everything (and more) that I would have said.

      Mod this post up!

    3. Re:Pfft by thulsey · · Score: 0, Redundant
      I have tried subEthaEdit. It is nice. I have NEVER been able to get Rendevouz to work on ANYTHING in my home network (iTunes, etc.) but as a text editor, it was ok.

      But in defense of the parent's post about vim, try gvim (same flavor, different can). Most of the "cryptic" yet commonly desired commands are in the menu.

      As for syntax hiliting.... :syntax=php (or html, or pl, or txt, or c++, or......)

      colorschemes are nice, as well.

      Very graceful, if you ask me... and powerful when you get into vimdiff and folds. Yowsa.

      And control v puts you in block mode, so you can select columns of text, and if you just want blocks of code, type $... (don't need to do that in gvim, anyway... you can use a little thing called a mouse...)

      You can indent, too. But I didn't mean to type a tutorial. :-)

      Anyway, beside the point. I still use BBEdit on my Macs, unless I'm doing remote work on a server somewhere. I can't stand the delay using the built-in FTP method.

    4. Re:Pfft by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I use Vim a lot (it's included with OS X, after all), but when I go into a meeting I can fire up SEE, create a document, see everyone on the local network and invite them to join in editing it collaboratively (no locking required). Perhaps you could tell me how I do this with Vim?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      :help clientserver

    6. Re:Pfft by Genady · · Score: 1

      While I agree with most of your points, as a Mac user who has taken the time (and blood and sweat) to lean vi keyboard shortcuts I must say I would LOVE some cocoa app that allowed me to use them. Esc-$ is now a muscle memory thing for me, and Apple-LARROW just doesn't feel right.

      I do use SEE because gvim on OS X is such crap, but I'd really like to see vi key bindings in a native cocoa text editor.

      --


      What if it is just turtles all the way down?
    7. Re:Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't know why I am bothering to respond to an AC...
      It is becuase you are a raving zealot whose only real complaint is that Vim is not written to support MacOS X and ignore everything else.
    8. Re:Pfft by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Funny
      (what happens when I hit "d" depends on the mode--when I hit "d" in subethaedit I see a "d").

      But that's the beauty of vi -- the joy of the unexpected lurking in every keystroke.

    9. Re:Pfft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One person's joy is another person's nightmare.

      VI proves there are some strange people in this world.

      Paris Hilton proves this too.

  6. Enhanced Carbon Emacs by edmz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I recently switched to Mac OS X and gave bbedit a try (I also tried the top rated editors from Macupdate).

    I ended up forcing myself to finally learn to use emacs. It has been worth it.

    http://www.inf.unibz.it/~franconi/mac-emacs/

    Thought I mention it even though SubEthaEdit is pretty handy too.

    --
    This paid my last vacation, it mi
    1. Re:Enhanced Carbon Emacs by mjc_w · · Score: 1

      I like emacs also, and have been using it for over fifteen years (I run cygwin on Winspire).

      One reason is that my scripting language of choice is gawk (contact my analyst for the sordid details), and emacs supports it. If SEE supported it, I might try it - heck, from the comments, I might try it anyway.

      --
      This is the Constitution.This is the Constitution under the Bush administration. Any questions?
    2. Re:Enhanced Carbon Emacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      SEE's syntax highlighting system is user extensible, you can add gawk support yourself pretty easily.

  7. for different operating systems... by 1isp_hax0r · · Score: 5, Informative
    From the FAQ:

    Any chance of a *nix or Windows version?
    We love developing macintosh applications with Cocoa and are determined to improve SubEthaEdit on that platform. We currently have neither resources nor experience to port our products to other platforms.

    While I use a mac, most of my development is using unix editors like emacs or vim. As a unix developer you do not have to wait for these guys to port to *nix. You already have this functionality!
    Just install screen. First user starts screen with an editor inside. Make a new screen console and change the permission of the personal screen socket. Let other users log in and hook into your screen using
    screen -x
    Done! Oh, for chat, use irc :) Or communicate via comments like real geeks do!
    --
    my cat's breath smells like cat food
    1. Re:for different operating systems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      They are just saying this to be polite, they use Cocoa which is Apple-only. They are locked into the mac whether they like it or not with OBJECTIVE-C. IF they really wanted to go to windows or unix there is GNUSTEP but it is not really alpha quality for Windows.

      They would have to rewrite in C++ or Carbon to port SubEthaEdit.

    2. Re:for different operating systems... by IAmATuringMachine! · · Score: 1

      Objective-C is a language, and is available on a variety of platforms. Their usage of Objective-C has almost nothing at all to do with portability of the application. Porting to Carbon would not yield much in the way of advantages in portability, and would be a step back in the richness of the APIs.

      --
      "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
      -E. W. Dijkstra
    3. Re:for different operating systems... by Durin_Deathless · · Score: 5, Informative

      That means everyone shares an insertion point, which isn't how SEE works. Everyone has a distinct insertion point.

      --
      You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
    4. Re:for different operating systems... by MoneyT · · Score: 1

      The rest of us will wait, as it consumes less time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    5. Re:for different operating systems... by martingunnarsson · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, and SubEthaEdit isn't a communication tool, it's a text editor with multi-user support. Grandparent has got it all wrong!

      --
      Martin
    6. Re:for different operating systems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'm sure watching "The Simple Life 2" consumes a lot of your energy. Er. Wait - if it does, please don't tell me about it.

  8. Hard to take serious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    ...anything on a blog called "Drunkenblog" and written by someone named "Drunken Batman". Must be a slow news day, I'm surprised the moderators let this through.

  9. More options... SubEthaEdit isn't the only one. by ShallowThroat · · Score: 3, Informative

    there is also iStorm", which uses rendezvous and can do more than just text/code. it's worth a look if you are in the market for that kinda thing.

    --
    The "Insert Quote Here" line is almost as predictable as inserting an actual quote.
    1. Re:More options... SubEthaEdit isn't the only one. by HaloZero · · Score: 1

      Chief difference: SubEthaEdit is free.

      --
      Informatus Technologicus
  10. Further testimony by nicky_d · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'd like to add my voice to the praise for SEE we've already seen. I've only tinkered with the collaborative editing on my home network (and it's very impressive), but without that feature SEE would still be my editor of choice, and I've been through the expansive .emacs and minimal vi mastery stages.

    Just this morning I noticed that when editing a CSS file, SEE will not only give you a drop-down box of all your symbols / definitions, but also place an icon next to them identifying them as ID definitions, class definitions, and so on.

    It's small, clean and extremely funcional - it feels pristine to use. I'd absolutely recommend trying it out, whether the collaborative features interest you or not.

  11. Sounds familiar by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    Wasn't the HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy updated via the SubEtha-SenseONet?

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Sounds familiar by ioErr · · Score: 2, Informative
      Frequently Asked Questions: What about the name?

      The name has been chosen to honor one of the greatest visionaries of computer supported collaborative writing, Douglas Adams, author of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", one of the funniest and greatest books on earth. In his books he envisioned a travel guide for aliens, which was updated by multiple editors collaborating over the "SubEthaNet". To quote him:

      The Guide was compiled by researchers roaming round the galaxy, beaming their copy in, which was then instantly available to anybody to read. Over, believe it or not, something called the SubEthaNet. [...] I really didn't foresee the Internet. But then, neither did the computer industry. Not that that tells us very much of course - the computer industry didn't even foresee that the century was going to end. But I did have the inkling of an idea that a collaborative guide, one that was written and kept up to date by the people who used it, in real time, might be a neat idea.
    2. Re:Sounds familiar by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "a collaborative guide, one that was written and kept up to date by the people who used it, in real time, might be a neat idea. "

      And now we have it. It's called Wikipedia!

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  12. Mac user outside of the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Funniest part of the interview:

    I think Apple Germany should invest more in marketing [...] placing a few TV ads would be a good start.

    Hehe.

    1. Re:Mac user outside of the USA by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hope you are German and lough out of despair. The last TV commercials from Apple in Germany were IIRC for the first white iBooks - maybe even flavoured iMacs. Hell, I've seen more Compaq Proliant commercials on German TV than Apple adds ever.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    2. Re:Mac user outside of the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I guess it's because Germans would see Apple, an american company, on TV and be angry because they can't invade the US and take it over.

      In all seriousness, I've been getting some VERY strange german-language emails from Germany lately (well, at least relayed off a server in Germany). I never knew how much some Germans hated the Italians & Turks that are living in your country. The one before last was blaming them for the lack of jobs, the last blamed them for the failure of the german healthcare system. Seemed very Mein Kampf-ish to me...

    3. Re:Mac user outside of the USA by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      You see, that's because most Spammers are Nazis. Those mails all came from the Sober.H worm - it's all a Windows problem actually.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  13. Easy port number! by nacturation · · Score: 1, Funny
    From the FAQ:
    • Did the port number change?

      Yes. Version 1.x used port 30729. Version 2.0 introduced a new, more efficient network protocol and therefore changed the port number to port 6942, easily remberable by "Six times nine is fourtytwo".

    Um... is it just me, or is memorizing a port number using an incorrect math calculation *not* intuitive?
    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    1. Re:Easy port number! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Perhaps, for those of us less Douglas Adams aware, 69 is 4 2 would be a more memorable ;-) However, if you see nine dolphins, maybe working on your Douglas Adams lore would be more appropriate.

  14. 6x9=42 by mbaudis · · Score: 4, Funny

    If 42 is the answer to the question of life, the Universe and everything(wikipedia.org), the equation probably is correct and easily to memorize. You may need a larger computer, though...

    So much for Germans not being funny.

    1. Re:6x9=42 by nacturation · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, missed that -- I shall forgo wearing my geek hat for the day and meditate on whales and petunias.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:6x9=42 by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 2, Funny
      If 42 is the answer to the question of life, the Universe and everything(wikipedia.org), the equation probably is correct and easily to memorize. You may need a larger computer, though...
      The math also works if you work in base 13.

      Which, by the way, means that the folks who created this buggy 'universe' thing most likely counted on 13 digits. Which 13, like everything else, is left as an exercise for the reader.

      --
      You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
  15. The ONLY collobaritve editor? by AusG4 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Before anyone jumps to suggest that Hydra pre-dated this as the first collaborative text editor, I should point out that Hydra became SubEthaEdit, so they are in fact one in the same. Hydra is a better name, but I digress.

    --
    bash-3.00$ uname -a
    SunOS panda 5.10 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-2
    1. Re:The ONLY collobaritve editor? by momerath2003 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hydra is a better name, but I digress.

      Sorry, but Hitchhiker's Guide allusions trump Greek mythological allusions any day of the week. :P

      --
      I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
  16. I'm all for metal interfaces... by nazzdeq · · Score: 1

    ..and quite frankly, don't see why people bitch about that. Apps with the metallic look much better than the other apps. Apple is about design, looks and usability. Metal looks good. Just like the G5. You want irritating? Try those fuckin' pop up windows like in Photoshop. That's irratating.

  17. NOT the only collaborative editor for Mac OS X by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ".. the only collaborative editor for Mac OS X" is false. JEdit with the DocSynch plugin also works on OS X, and is the only thing I can use as all my buddies are on PC. :)

    http://docsynch.sourceforge.net/

  18. 6*9=42 in base 13, not 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i remember reading somewhere that adams said it was picked totally by random - the number really had no significance - and that 6 * 9 equals 42 when it's done in base 13. intuitive? no (unless you're some freak that thinks in base 13).. but hey,it's a little geeky tribute ;)

  19. nice attitude, pal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic
    I don't know why I am bothering to respond to an AC...


    nice attitude, pal. so you think you're better than all of us that don't require a slashdot username to feel like our penis size is good enough? i post often (well.. at least once a week), but i don't really see an incentive in getting my own username. so please, knock off the attitude - you aren't better than anyone.

    (p.s.: sure there are those that hide behind AC just to troll, but you'll always have that.)
  20. Apple makes me boo-hoo by gwoodrow · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I love Apple, although our relationship is a little rocky right now. Apple is a beautiful girlfriend, and she does her housework really fast and efficient, but there are problems. Namely, she won't let me listen to her sing. I mean, I bring home the bacon daily, but if I want to hear her sing I have to go in a specific room of the house. Pretty lame if you ask me. If I try to listen to her in a room of my choice instead of hers, she kicks me in the nads.
    Ouch.

    The girl I dated a few years ago - Napster - and the one after that - Kazaa - were much more trusting of me. But they were ho's and gave it up to anyone. Apple is much classier than those, but I miss being trusted. Heck, Apple even makes me wear a chastity belt because she doesn't trust me with myself.

    Needless to say, Apple is making me pretty uncomfortable lately with this squeamish distrust. I thought the basis of any good relationship is trust and understanding, but apparently she thinks it's all about control and restriction. That's no way to live life. If she's not careful, she may end up a lonely spinster with no sustainable long-term relationships. Please Apple, I love you - don't treat me like a child! Give me the freedom I long for, and I promise I'll be faithful to you!

    1. Re:Apple makes me boo-hoo by gwoodrow · · Score: 2, Funny

      Someone please moderate my previous comment down - I somehow managed to post it to the wrong story!