Slashback: Munich, Harlan, Alacrity

Read on below for tonight's edition of Slashback, with followups to several previous Slashdot stories, including the Linux-in-Munich saga, Harlan Ellison's feud with AOL, Hotmail's response to the growing space for webmail, and more. Read on for the details.

Please don't link "here": case in point. Kent Brewster writes "As previously mentioned here(1), here(2), and here(3), national treasure Harlan Ellison has been fighting a drawn-out battle with AOL over alt.binaries.e-book. Looks like a settlement has been reached; details (such as they are) are on AOL."

Papa Legba adds a link to an informative page on the suit's progress, with lots of informative links.

The basement dwellers burrow deeper. kevin_conaway writes "Accoring to this article on Tech Target, the DNS outage at Akamai was caused by a massive DDOS attack on Akamai's servers. Akamai Technologies Inc. said a 'sophisticated, large-scale distributed denial of service attack' on its domain name service bogged down several of its clients' Web sites yesterday morning, and that it's investigating the incident with federal authorities."

Time to quit your Winin' marmoset writes "As a followup to this story, Dave Winer has posted information about transitioning weblogs.com sites. Rogers Cadenhead and Steve Kirks pitched in to help. The plan includes a 90-day free evaluation period, during which the affected users will be able to make local copies of their data, sign up for paid hosting, or move to another hosting solution."

Pay up, Pal. ack154 writes "Following up from a previous slashdot story, PayPal may have reached a preliminary settlement in the class action lawsuit brought against them in 2002. The lawsuit was regarding the freezing of suspected fraud accounts and communication of limits on accounts. Limited details are available right now, but the eBay announcement states that anyone who signed up for a PayPal account between Oct 1999 and Jan 2004 may be eligible."

Forkenbrock points to this USAToday today article which says that "Ebay's Paypal will pay a total of 9.25 million dollars to its users (businesses and individuals)."

What about Java vs. T++? Stefan de Bruijn was one of several readers who reacted to the benchmarks cited in the Slashdot post titled 'Java faster than C++'.

He writes "I took the liberty to re-write a major piece of the C++ part of the benchmark. Furthermore, the Intel compiler has been tested as well. The Java code was assumed 'correct.'

The results are quite different than the former posting. Here, C++ appears to be a winner for the vast majority of programs; where Java scored better with (recursive) algorithms and the use of file IO (where it must be remarked that the C++ code uses iostreams)." joekaylor writes "I did a similar study 6-months ago to the study sited recently here on Slashdot, and I did it with java jdk 1.4.x. Java performance has been underestimated for QUITE some time. It's not the best tool every time, but it is not considered often enough and for the wrong reasons."

And an anonymous reader writes "This article by USC graphics researchers surveys a number of good (mostly numeric) benchmarks and then explains the theory of why maybe java should be faster than C++. It also raises the (unanswered) question of why geeks (ostensibly intelligent and scientifically-minded people) continue to believe some ideas (for example, 'garbage collection is slow') despite strong evidence to the contrary that has been available for many years."

Well, it's sort of like a gigabyte. helloanand writes "So, a day after yahoo relaunched their email service with 100 MB space, hotmail also expanded their offering to 25 MB. Just logged into my hotmail account and saw the space bumped up. The thing that I noticed is that MSN/Hotmail didn't make a big splash about it. Its actually a good thing for the users. Gmail started this trend by coming up with 1 GB (yes! gigabyte) worth of space. Then yahoo joined the party with their own 100 MB version and now the latest to join in bill gates & co (aka MSN Hotmail). Lets see what other changes does Gmail stimulate to the email service. Also the thing to note is that Google's gmail is being closely observed by the established players like MSN and Yahoo."

Each city represents a star system; players alternate by country. Wudbaer writes "The Munich city council has finally OK'ed the multi-step 30 Million Euro project to migrate the Munich city council to Linux, as heise news reports (German text). The planned high-profile migration of the administration of one of the largest cities in Germany has already created a lot of interest both in pro and anti-OSS camps, and was rumored to have run into substantial problems at the beginning of the year which might have endangered the council's final OK for the project. But now apparently the road is open for the project. Go Tux !"

Marcus links to this announcement on the city government's web page, and suggests that you put it through Google.

securitas writes "Hot on the heels of Munich's decision to go with Linux, the City of Bergen, Norway will replace its Unix and Windows core infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 8. The second part of the implementation will migrate the city's educational network - with 100 schools and 32,000 users - from 100 Windows application servers to 20 Linux IBM eServer BladeCenters. Bergen is Norway's second-largest city. ZDNet UK's Michael Parsons discusses the choice in an interview with Bergen CTO Ole Bjoern Tuftedal."

Making less of a mess. HishamMuhammad writes "The GoboLinux story featured recently on /. got the project some publicity, but again a number of misconceptions showed up, from people who think we are "just another user-friendly distro", because of our verbose pathnames like /System/Settings. Here is an article I wrote in order to explain the principles behind the design of GoboLinux (also in PDF), which tells our side of the story."

Comments

Harlan is just pissed no one posts his books

[Black Art]

Harlan's books are rarely posted to alt.binaries.ebooks. The only times i have seen it happen is after he has one of his legendary tanrums.

If he really wants to do justice to the authors whos work does get posted to that group, he should work to see that their work remains in print and available in local bookshops.

Media tie-ins and "books in the world of famous author by someone you never heard of" do more harm to real authors than e-books ever will. The less you can find real authors in your local bookstore, the more people will turn to e-books.

Garbage collection vs. manual allocation

[miu]

A couple of the referenced links on java note that GC is likely to increase memory locality, but I have never seen non-trivial (greater than 20k lines) C or C++ code that did not use a memory arena or customer allocators. Even smaller programs benefit from simple techniques like using std::vector to emulate a std::map for increased memory locality

I think the fact that new/delete are a huge part of the overhead of complicated programs is pretty obvious to anyone who has every profiled their code. Once you throw threads into the mix you will see another massive hit to time spent in allocation.

Re:Garbage collection vs. manual allocation

[Markus Registrada]

The original report (anonymously) parrots common propaganda in favor of garbage collection. In fact, people who think Java is slow think so because when they run real Java programs, they find that real Java programs really do run slowly. The question why has lots of good, easily articulated answers, having to do with virtual memory locality, and cache locality, and cache poisoning, and even hard-to-avoid misconfiguration. (Do you know how much memory to tell your Java runtime to allow each of your programs to use?)

Nobody complains that C++ programs are slow, because they aren't. Nobody is obliged to notice they are C++ programs, because they are easy to install, and they just work. They don't call much attention to themselves, because they rarely suffer from the security flaws common to C programs. (Some people think C++ iostreams are slow, but gcc-3.4's iostreams are as fast as, and often much faster than, libc equivalents; the slowness turned out to be just a bad implementation, now fixed.)

In principle a really good garbage collector might not be slow, for certain common kinds of jobs, However, Java runtimes generally can't use those garbage collectors; they have to use the slow ones instead. Haskell is supposed to be (uniquely) very good at helping its GC maintain locality, but that doesn't matter much because Haskell is slow anyway.

The presence of garbage collection actually prevents the language from offering the kind of automated, encapsulated resource management uniquely possible in C++, leaving coders to use essentially C-like management for resources other than memory. Does garbage collection really carry its weight? It has been years since I last coded a "delete" statement. What could GC possibly do for me, to make up for eliminating the most useful library idioms I have?

GC propaganda is common in academic Computer Science departments, but real programs are built by engineers who are not fooled. LISP has failed to take the world by storm, decade after decade, for sound reasons, just like so many more-modern languages also crippled by GC and LISP apologia. GC doesn't just automate memory management; dependence on it automatically confines the language to niche uses.

You can tell a bad benchmark because it seems to show that languages you already know are slow aren't.

Re:Garbage collection vs. manual allocation

[LoocSiMit]

In fact, people who think Java is slow think so because when they run real Java programs, they find that real Java programs really do run slowly.

In my experience people find that the GUIs on Java programs run slow. Which they do. That makes the whole thing feel slow. It's a real concern, but not directly related to the language, VM, garbage collection, level of abstraction or the rest.

Gnome is noticably slower on my PC than Win 2000. That does not mean the Linux kernel is slower than the NT5 kernel.

All those benchmarks have shown me is that unless I am writing a huge computationally intensive application then performance should not be one of the criteria on which I decide whether to use C++ or Java.

Re:Garbage collection vs. manual allocation

[Decaff]

they find that real Java programs really do run slowly.

Not true. Most people who run Java programs have no idea that they are running Java programs.

Nobody complains that C++ programs are slow, because they aren't. Nobody is obliged to notice they are C++ programs, because they are easy to install, and they just work. They don't call much attention to themselves, because they rarely suffer from the security flaws common to C programs.

This is so wrong, its hard to know where to start.

First, installation. Java apps can be packaged as a single JAR or WAR file that can be run just by clicking on it, or putting into the right directory of an app server. Alternatively, you can set up networked installs via WebStart. The thing is you can prepare a single binary for all platforms.

With C++ you need to get the right compiled binary for the processor, and the right versions of system libraries: just look at the trials of installing something via rpms.

As for speed - you must have a short memory. In the 80s and early 90s there were serious worries about C++ performance, with many complaints that it was far too slow when compared with C or assembler. Remember the complaints about the speed of early versions of Mozilla? It was so bad that many of us assumed it was some interpreted system. No - it was C++!

As for 'just working' and 'security flaws' this is directly contrary to evidence. Unless you code using bounds-checked collection libraries (which can be intrinsically slow) there is absolutely no difference between C++ and C in terms of memory access, and an equal possibility of buffer overruns.

As for garbage collection: The comment about niche uses is just nonsense. Not by any rational definition could languages such as Java and C# be defined as 'niche'.

Alas, But Hotmail sucks even more now

[sovtekmidget]

i don't pay anything for yahoo, and they give you ten times what hotmail will give you for free- while microsoft tries to charge you 20 bucks fo a tenth of the space! Also, to no matter what I do, my inbox is filled with atrocious amounts of spam ARRGH!

No wonder...

[Ianoo]

he thing that I noticed is that MSN/Hotmail didn't make a big splash about it. Its actually a good thing for the users. Gmail started this trend by coming up with 1 GB (yes! gigabyte) worth of space. Then yahoo joined the party with their own 100 MB version and now the latest to join in bill gates & co (aka MSN Hotmail).

No wonder MSN Hotmail isn't making a "big splash about it" considering their service has managed to cough up one fourtieth of Gmail's space and one quarter of Yahoo's space. I'd hardly call that "joining the party" - more like a desperate move. Let's hope that Gmail and a "new wave" of similar services drives these ad-ridden insecure proprietary badly-run messes under once and for all. Who on earth would want to use MSN Hotmail when Gmail goes to full public access?

Re:Thoughts

[cpt kangarooski]

Regarding Ellison, he's actually done somewhat less than you think. He came up with story ideas on two, count 'em two episodes (admittedly from 1998) but didn't even do the scripts for either.

Frankly, he's been a jerk about this whole deal -- but then, when has he _not_ been jerk?

The Logic of Ellison

[geekwench]

Harlan Ellison is a decent writer. However, he's also a fantastic grandstander. His temper tantrums and aggressive behavior at writers' conventions are nothing short of legendary. The quality of his writing aside (I like most of his short stories), a good portion of his popularity is tied directly in to his notoriety. He knows, much to the chagrin of many people, that his antics keep his books on the shelves where less - colorful - authors disappear from print.
It doesn't surprise me that AOL settled. Having seen the man on one of his torrential rants (not, thankfully, as the focus of his ire), I almost feel sorry for the execs of AOL/Time/Warner, imagining what sort of invective must have been leveled against them.

Re:Hotmail? That's a lie!

[stevesliva]

Yup, I still have Hotmail's 2MB limit going. Sure is nice watching bounce-notice 40KB viral .pif attachments with my address spoofed as the sender bump my quota up in 2% increments about 5-10 times/day, to say nothing of the dozens of other messages that aren't so large. But I hear that a full Junk Mail folder cannot actually stop incoming mail.

I do however feel like mailing MS a floppy so that they can double my storage. Cheapskates... the postage would cost more.

Geek-machismo..

[k98sven]

It also raises the (unanswered) question of why geeks (ostensibly intelligent and scientifically-minded people) continue to believe some ideas (for example, 'garbage collection is slow') despite strong evidence to the contrary that has been available for many years.

It's not an unanswered question, it was answered quite long ago, in satirical form:
Real programmers don't use Pascal.

The same attitude prevails today, albeit the programming languages are different.

Personally, I've been around long enough to have heard "C is slow, you should be writing that in assembly language". And now the mantra is "Java is slow, you should use C/C++".

That is the first category of machismo anyway: speed-freaks who are quick to recommend C, yet seem surprized when their favorite program turns out to have a buffer-overflow exploit.

The second category appears to be the CS-geek-machismo which is more academic.. These are the guys who are talking about how it all should be Lisp, no matter what. And Java sucks because of its typing, etc. Practical use of the language seems to be of less concern than the design of the language itself for these guys.

Then there are those who believe in using the right tool for the right job. Sadly, you don't hear as much from these guys, probably because macho-geeks are loud and obnoxious by definition.

Anyway, I used to teach a beginners' course in programming, and often got the question on what the 'best' programming language was. I usually answered by asking: "What's the best tool, a screwdriver or a hammer?"

Re:Geek-machismo..

[Too Much Noise]

"What's the best tool, a screwdriver or a hammer?"

how big a hole do you need to punch?

Re:Thoughts

[mfarah]

Harlan Ellison hasn't written anything significant since Babylon 5

Actually, Harlan worked there as creative consultant, not as a writer. Sure, he does share story (not script!) credits in a couple episodes, but I still think it's too much to call him a writer in B5.

Straczynski, on the other hand...

Re:Not hotmail, it's yahoo that could kill gmail

[dubiousmike]

unfortunately, many of us still feel that Yahoo isn't far enough removed from their shady past (spamming me once they bought Launch, and changed their privacy policy qhich automatically opted me into a bunch of third party mailings).

I do agree that Yahoo is cleaner than Hotmail, but I will certainly move over to try Google once it is available to me. Google has never struck me as dishonest while Yahoo has.

Re:Thoughts

[orthogonal]

The confusing part is that I also subscribe to Yahoo's business email (don't ask why I do both... It's either complicated, or I'm stupid or both) Anyway, their business mail, which goes for $10 per month, is still only getting 25MB. Note, this is 1/4 the space of what the free email people get and, well, a whole, whole lot less than the mail plus people, but at a much higher price.

Yahoo's not pricing what's "fair", they're pricing what the market can bear.

They've figured (probably correctly) that business users can and will pay more -- and probably also would find it more disruptive and expensive, in terms of lost business --, to change addresses.

Since businesses can, and will, and have more to lose if they won't, pay more, Yahoo is more than willing to charge business users more.

Re:Nothing in this hat but the same old rabbit.

[aardvarkjoe]

That sounds a bit like Windows Dominance and all the /. stories lately.

If the limit had been raised to ten gigabytes, everyone would be complaining about how they're using their vast cash reserves to drive everyone else out of the webmail market. If they had left the limit at two megs, the complaint would be that they're just using their market dominance and not innovating. If they got rid of hotmail completely, everyone would be whining about how their five-year-old address was disappearing, and if they sold the hotmail domain to Google, the conspiracy theorists would have a field day.

No matter what the situation, you guys always seem to know Microsoft is at fault. It's just the reason why that changes.

Re:Not hotmail, it's yahoo that could kill gmail

[tfoss]

Yes, I am talking about gmail demise.

Oh c'mon, you just wanted the first "Gmail is dying" post, didn't you?

We all love google and hate yahoo ads, but, with the release date of gmail still uncertain, privacy rumours in everyones mind, the chance of gmail taking a lead might be really slim. It might verywell be a email_SE (read special edition) for the geeks. Nothing more

Or maybe it'll do to Yahoo mail what Google did to Yahoo search.

I wonder how many would trade the superior spam filtering of yahoo for the 900MB extra storage of gmail.

Superior? To what? The still beta Gmail filter about which very little is really known? Doesn't it seem likely that a company as into research as Google would be able to create a damn fine filter technology? (Beyond which, I wouldn't even call yahoo's spam filter that good...)

There is atleast 6 months before gmail goes public. Yahoo could make a killing in this period.

Make a killing off of all those users of its free email system?

Yahoo has done its homework this time. Just a little bit of storage hammer can keep the gmail away.

I don't buy it, but more to the point, Gmail is still in beta. Still will be for a while, and making any predictions of how things will go is just kind of silly.

-Ted

I have no case and I must scream....

[billstewart]

Somebody really needs to put Harlan and RMS in the same room for a while. Maybe with ESR to moderate.

AOL didn't put enough work into blowing off Harlan and his lawyer when they first complained. The DMCA is an awful mess, and people besides Harlan have found even worse things to do with it than he did, but he really does not appear to have understood Usenet or ISPs or the Internet particularly well, except as a medium for evil nassttyy fffffile ssssharrerrrssss to steal hisss preciousssss. Now, piracy is not unknown on Usenet, and while it's not quite mandatory in many of the alt.binaries newsgroups, that's only because spam fills up the rest of the spare bits. But that not only doesn't mean that he can reasonably expect ISPs to pay copyright lawyers to read through every terabyte of slowly-moving-self-parody that comes in on the newsgroups to determine what might or might not be pirated, it also doesn't mean that it's reasonable for him to demand that they block access to material or sites that their subscribers might try to access, any more than he can reasonably demand that Xerox not sell devices that facilitate book piracy.

Re:Thoughts

[miu]

Harlan Ellison hasn't written anything significant since Babylon 5, and that was over 10 years ago in 1994

But lots of his old stuff is gold. He may be something of a dick (although I think the legend may be bigger than reality there), but the man has wrote some of the best short fiction of the 20th century.

Also, as a couple people have mentioned already Harlan was a story consultant (wrote the series bible) and that was about it for B5.

Gobo Linux...

[evilviper]

After reading the doc, I think I can answer all questions rather quickly...

Q: Why change the directory names/structure?
A: Because he can. No other reason.

Q: Why aren't user and superuser programs seperate?
A: He just does not understand the numerous benefits of doing so. I really mean that.

Q: How can I boot into a skeleton (single-user, root / only) system?
A: You can't. He's decided that you must use bootable media, and no other way. I leave it to you to discuss the problems with that...

Q: How about remote mounts and/or seperate partitions?
A: You have one choice... Union mounts. He believes doing it the normal Unix way is morally wrong, or something like that.

Q: Why is the name of root changed?
A: This is a multi-part answer:

1. He dreams of a no-root system, where everything is peaches and cream, but since it doesn't work well in the real world, there is still a root.
2. He feels more secure in the cloud of obscurity that comes when root isn't named "root".
3. He likes people to ask, so he can take the opportunity to rant about how a Unix user/root system is wrong, and terrible. He's not trying to work on the new (theoretically superior) system, he just wants to complain.

I think that covers it pretty well.

Re:Gobo Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: Why aren't user and superuser programs seperate?
A: He just does not understand the numerous benefits of doing so. I really mean that.

How did this get "Insightful"?

What benefits? The added security that comes from knowning users must type /sbin/halt instead of just halt? As he points out, many superuser programs are already in /bin, and it doesn't do any harm.

Note: I've never used Gentoo, but the arguments he makes are mostly good (apart from the 'root' nonsense).

Re:Gobo Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Take "He believes doing it the normal Unix way is morally wrong, or something like that." for instance. Complete crap, he says nothing like that.