Slashdot Mirror
PC Magazine Reviews Firefox, Opera
prostoalex writes "PC Magazine reviews Mozilla Firefox 0.9.1 and Opera 7.51, noting: 'Security concerns aren't the only reason to seek an alternative [to Internet Explorer]. IE's slow rendering engine and dearth of privacy features may plant the thought in some iconoclastic minds that it may not be the best browser for everyone.' 4 stars for Firefox and 3.5 for Opera, so looks like a Firefox win, although the editors do point out FF's troubles with DHTML as well as Opera issues with JavaScript."
Out of habit and ignorance, I have used IE for years. I think it is time to make the change to Firefox. Thanks for the article.
Emphasis mine.
Now explain this? It's got boatloads more functionality (find as you type, tabbed browsing, popup blocker, livemarks [0.9+], etc etc.)... but it 'doesn't include many functions'.
Now how does IE rank? Please don't tell me feature rich. That's like calling is secure.
Considering I'd give IE a 0.5/5.0, there's no debate. The point is to use either of these before you use IE. The failure to patch IE after the Russian hacking debacle was the last straw. All users at my work are now on Firefox or Opera.
Also, I have a lot of "non-techie" friends. You should see the amount of adware/spyware littered on these computers. It makes me sick, and it's all IE's fault (pop-up > get scared > *click* > install > forget > go back to "pop-up"... go to site > install under users' radar > repeat... I'm sick of it). IE sucks.
-n-
I install Firefox for everyone I help with PC's, and no one has ever complained or needed additional help to use it. I had one person tell me they need their old bookmarks, but I showed them where you can see IE's imported bookmarks in the menu.
I'm sure some of you already do this, but for those that don't, next time you're running ad-aware for your non-techie friends, install Firefox, show them the desktop shortcut, and tell them to click on that one for their Internet. They'll thank you for it when they stop getting pop ups and strange home pages and toolbars.
Yeah even the extensions thing is beautiful. Anyone know why Winamp is still so popular? Plugins. If you're willing to put a little searching time in, you can make it work exactly how you want it to, no matter how picky you are. Extensions are THE way to go if you want to browse the web on YOUR terms rather than MS's.
For reference, I highly recommend the following extensions: Adblock, Flashblock, Googlebar, Context Search, Mycroft (pick and choose these though), All-in-one Gestures, and Tabbrowser Extensions. Wonderful stuff.
In the days of 256+ MB RAM and 40+ GB HD space, having an extra 10 MB app doesn't hurt you. I have both Firefox (0.8 because I can't get TabBrowser Extensions to work on 0.9) and IE on my work computer, for the increasingly rare site that requires IE to work.
I would move that a diagnosis of IE vs. Mozilla on a site like Slashdot might not be the best test of marketshare. Many people access Slashdot from the office, where they are more likely to use IE because it is part of the base software package. Many workplaces, like mine, have rules against downloading and running software other than what has been installed on the system by the sysadmin.
I doubt this is the case - I would venture to say those that are smart enough to change the User Agent string appropriately, are also smart enough to set it back when not needed so web stats are collected properly. Particularly with the explosive growth seen over the last few days/weeks - there are a lot of people using it now that I am sure don't have a clue how to change the user agent string.
Not to mention Sun's Java plugin complains to no end that Firefox initialized it but the User Agent is set to IE... that reminder keeps me honest as well.
The brutal part about IE being part of the OS is that people seem to be retarded about opening/closing their web browser.
:P
I've heard that Moz loads too slow all the time... Waaaaa.. It's not as fast as IE.
Why don't people just realize that once you open your web browser you should just leave it open?! Why are you even on your computer?
Anyways.. back to my point. People will keep using IE simply because it's there, and the convience of being one of the fastest loading applications in Windows (oh wait.. I forgot about Calc.exe).
Oh.. And most people can't wrap their heads around tabbed browsing (or see the point of it). But tell them it blocks popups then they get excited.
R4NT.com - A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
DHTML is HTML with Javascript. Its just a buzz word, why do these PC magazines keep touting it as the latest and greatest thing???
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly, (emphasis mine).
Hello!! You said it yourselves! NONSTANDARD. Its websites that aren't perfect, not the browser. *head explodes*
The Anti-Blog
Firefox doesn't have troubles with DHTML...
"Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly, nor does the Mozilla Organization have any intention of releasing a browser that does."
Non-standard DHTML isn't really DHTML is it?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Well, I've never read FUD in a context other than the speculation and half-truths that you mention, but taken literally, I've always been told that it means "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt". There may in fact be Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt surrounding Internet Explorer and a great many other Microsoft-related things, but they're based on a great deal more evidence than we usually think of when we say FUD. Maybe "legit-i-FUD" would be better? "Factual FUD"?
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly...
So it is bad that the browser does not render bad source correctly?
Granted, the article does go on to mention that this is not Firefox's fault, but they way it is cast as a problem really rubs the wrong way.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
I'll bite, I can guarantee that some number of Mozilla developers are not competent programmers given the number of possible contributors to the project.
That said, I think MS realizes it has a problem now and is dealing with it, unfortunately it will take a year or two for it to really be dealt with. Mozilla knew (I hope and assume here) there was a problem right from the start and took steps to mitigate a lot of the problems that IE is plagued with (and netscape would probably have been plauged with before the complete rewrite of code). Its a new style vs old style mentality. Many applications (OSS as well as proprietary commercial) from the early to mid 90's are plauged with the type of problems that IE has. The problem is that MS rested on its laurels instead of continuing to push IE forward and improve it. They also were under the highly misguided impression that people didn't really care about security and weren't willing to pay for it. Hopefully the truth has come home to roost and we will see better products out of redmond.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
After noticing that people generally hated web user interfaces, Microsoft started banking on network-distributed fat clients using XAML driving the sales of Longhorn. They deliberately didn't fully implement CSS, DHTML and XHTML because the less featureful web apps are in general, the more demand there will be for XAML applications (which btw, can only be consumed on a Windows machine).
Microsoft did put the IE features team back together last month as a response to the growing threat of Mozilla - I think they made a critical error in judgement and are now going to have to play catch up to Mozilla until Longhorn comes out. More than that, Microsoft has already started to reevaluate the selling power XAML will have because whether Mozilla beats IE in the next two-three years or vice versa, more sites will capitalize on new browser technology to deliver richer UIs that reduce the need for technologies like XAML.
Now if Mozilla just gets its act together and gets a strong managed framework backend for XUL....
Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. That pretty much sums up my parents experience of the Internet while using IE.
Anything that would keep them from calling me frantically wondering why their web browser now goes to some variation of cool web search sounds great.
Microsoft has dug IE this shithole by making the browser too much a part of the operating system, trying to get as much lock in as possible. Now they get to reap the fruits of their labors and lay face down in it.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I agree. I am an Opera user since way back. It is still my main browser but I use Firefox extensively. Mainly because of Operas poor javascript implementation.
I can't read my Gmail with Opera, My online banking doesnt' work with Opera. I use add suported because if I need a second browser I am not paying for the first.
Fix that (or ignore that) and it is by far the best browser IMO. This is from someone typing on Firefox right now.
Opera even with all features integrated is leaner and faster. None of the features collide, which is a problem I have with some firefox extensions (to try and get Opera functionality).
Opera addiction. Opera seems to be the only browser with true page caching. Hit back 4 times as fast as you can and instantly you will be back 4 pages. No load times and seemingly no render times. It is totally cached. This is like browsing on JOLT. Once you get hooked on the speed it is hard to go back.
To me going to the slower browsers is like going from DSL to dialup. I need my speed.
Here's a funny snippet of their Firefox review:
Con: Will not load ActiveX and VBScript
This should be under Pros, ActiveX is good for one purpose -- Windows Update. And I've never even heard of an real web site that used VBScript. Shall we detract points for not supporting every asinine scripting language ever invented?
1) Resources. I'm running Windows XP and from what I understand, there is no way I can remove Internet Explorer from my computer. Call me a space hog, but I don't like having un-used aps on my computer. I figure better to have an inferior browser on my computer, a little extra space, and less confusion then to load both of them. Can anyone solve that problem?
Yes, get your head out of your ass. Would you remove the seatbelts from your car to have "less confusion", or "a little extra space" ??
It's 2004, not 1994. A few megs isn't even worth thinking about on a desktop computer. IE trojans and exploits are real. Deal with it.
My favorite Opera feature is the page view zoom, especially for printing. Unlike Mozilla's zoom feature, which only scales the text, Opera scales the whole page including the images, so the layout and placement look very much the same, only bigger/smaller as requested. It wouldn't surprise me if Opera's zoom violates a few standards here and there, but I wish every browser did it like that. Very handy, indeed.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
I'm sure every single 3D artist out there uses a web browser, but how many web browser users are 3D artists? Your analogy is crap. It's more like driving a car and not knowing that there are a number of models out there to choose from. I admit my ignorance in the realm of 3D modeling, but I'm also not insulted by this in the slightest.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Does PC Mag not "fact check" their articles? Something as simple as a google search would have shown them that ActiveX is an optional plug-in. In my results for firefox activex, the site of the person who develops the plugin is listed 2nd among 47,000 hits. If they have a burning desire to use ActiveX, they can do so.
That said, I would never recommend that anyone use that plugin. That's like being rescued from a burning building and setting fire to the ambulance on your way to the hospital.
Only on
I guess if you are going to make me fact-check, I might as well go all out. When I said IEHTML, I meant MSHTML -- thanks for not acronym nazi'ing me.
"According to Microsoft, IE 4 contains nine components that interoperate for full functionality (see Figure 2). These components include five DLLs--Wininet.dll, Urlmon.dll, Mshtml.dll, Shdocvw.dll, and Comctl32.dll--along with two executable files, Explorer.exe and Iexplore.exe, and a security and a Java virtual machine component. Both IE 3 and IE 4 require these DLLs to function and without them could not offer the displays we expect and the features we expect, nor access the Internet at all. Wininet.dll offers Internet services and capabilities, including HTTP and FTP access, modem dialing, and browser caching. Urlmon.dll lets developers treat URLs as if they were programmable objects and thus build them into their applications (Microsoft's own Office 97 does this). Mshtml.dll is the component that lets you view your folders as Web pages: Choose a disk drive from My Computer, for example, and what you see is Dynamic HTML, Microsoft-style, relying on this particular DLL. Shdocvw.dll (Shell Document View) lets developers build browser capabilities into software, while Comctl32.dll (Common Controls) provides low-level support for menus, toolbars, progress bars, and many other controls used across Windows applications." (emphasis mine)
Source.
As you can see, at least 2 of the 5 DLLs IE needs are in use by windows. Sure, this is IE4, but it was the first in-depth analysis I found.
Firefox's chrome is very thin layer on top of gecko, so that doesn't take long. Loading up the static GRE is what takes it the longest time. MSHTML.DLL (as well as comctl32.dll) is already in use by the windows shell before anyone double-clicks on "The Internet".
Get Firefox!