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I, Robot Hits the Theaters

tyleremerson writes "With today's film release of "I, Robot," the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence has launched a new website, 3 Laws Unsafe. 3 Laws Unsafe explores the non-fictional problems presented by Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. The Three Laws are widely known and are often taken seriously as reasonable solutions for guiding future AI. But are they truly reasonable? 3 Laws Unsafe tries to address this question." Reader Rob Carr has submitted a review of the movie, below, that he promises is spoiler-free.

I, Robot: A Movie Review that's 3 Laws (and Spoiler) Safe!

A movie review by Rob Carr

Thanks to Eide's Entertainment I got to see I, Robot tonight. As someone who grew up with Isaac Asimov's robot stories, I've come to expect a mystery based on the implications of the 3 Laws of Robotics (or the lack of one or part of one of those laws), the "Frankenstein Complex," and Dr. Susan Calvin. I was afraid that the movie might miss out on this, especially since it's not a direct adaptation of the book, but "inspired" by the Good Doctor Asimov.

The movie met my expectations and more. Will Smith, whom we all know as an overconfident smart@$$ character from such movies as "Independence Day" and the two "Men in Black" movies, played a somewhat less confident and far less wisecracking character. It was a welcome change to see him less confident. Yeah, some of the stunts were a little absurd (am I the only one thinking of Gemini 8 at one point in the movie?) but that's to be expected from this type of movie. Bridget Moynahan was far too young to be the Susan Calvin I remember, but that's also to be expected in this type of movie. James Cromwell (whom you'll all remember from Star Trek: First Contact and Enterprise's "Broken Bow" episode as Dr. Zefram Cochrane) gave a flat performance - but that's actually a complement. I doubt anyone will recognize Wash from "Firefly" as an important robot in the story.

It's customary to comment on how well the CGI was done. I liked it, but then again, I'm not hypercritical on something like that. I did wonder a little bit about center of balance as some of the robots walked, but mostly I didn't think about it at all, which to me is the goal of CGI. I did wonder about children's fingers getting caught in some of the open gaps on the robot's bodies. Real world models would have a bit more covering, one would think. But that's being picky.

I have no memory of the soundtrack music. That in and of itself might say something. I'm a musician, but it just didn't register.

I figured out some clues, missed some others, and was surprised several times in the movie. There were a lot of clues - this isn't one of those mysteries where the answer is pulled out of the writer's a...out of thin air.

I'm not a complete continuity freak, so I can't tell if the movie violated any of Asimov's universe, but from what I can remember, it fits pretty well (if you ignore Dr. Calvin's age) and might even explain a few things.

Given that even some of the geeks in the audience were surprised to find out that there was a book of stories just like the movie, I think the movie will hopefully bring Asimov's stories to a new generation.

I liked "I, Robot. It's worth seeing, especially if you 've already seen Spider-Man 2 at least once. It's a pretty good (though not great) movie.

Having read Slashdot for a while, I know that there are folks out there who will despise this movie because it's not exactly like the book. Others will hate the movie or worship it, and loads of people are going to savage this review. You know what? That's fine with me. I had fun with this movie, had a nice date with my wife, and it didn't cost anything. I even had fun typing up this review. You're allowed to be different and to agree or disagree with me. Heck, that's a big chunk of what makes the world fun. Interestingly, it's even a small point in the movie. I'd say more, but that would be telling."

57 of 639 comments (clear)

  1. A particularly distressing example... by Omnifarious · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is the story that showed me the complete folly of the three laws: The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect

  2. Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by th1ckasabr1ck · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics may seem a decent set of guidelines for ensuring that future robots and AIs behave in satisfactory ways. But there are several problems that immediately emerge when we look deeper.

    Asimov wrote about a hundred stories exploring different ways in which these three laws could lead to interesting/dangerous situations. I think Asimov was doing all he could to make it clear that these three laws were not perfect.

    1. Re:Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by ooby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Although you know that Asimov's stories explored the flaws in the 3 laws of robotics, many people take the three laws of robotics as if they were actual laws. I've seen movies, television shows and even real people purport those laws to be true. Ironically, when they mention the laws as if they are true, they actually point out that they had never read the aforementioned tales.

    2. Re:Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by pavon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the biggest problem with the three laws isn't that they are incomplete for determining the best course of action for a robot, which is what Asimov explored, but the fact that they are currently (and possibly inherently) impossible to implement.

      How the heck is a robot supposed to accurately judge that whether a random unique action in a unique situation will cause harm to a human or himself? Humans can't even do this. If we were to create an artificial intellegence that was fully capable of making these decisions, would we even be able to put limits on what it decides?

      Regardless of the answer to that philisophical question, we will have the technology to produce usefull robots long before we have the technology to produce 3-Law abiding robots so we need to come up with practical ways of making them as safe as possible, within their limited capabilites.

    3. Re:Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 5, Funny

      I know what you mean, and when I run into someone like that I like to mention that one of the laws of robotics was "cars get welded, people do not", and that's why there's hardly any robotic welder accidents in car factories. Just mess with them a little.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    4. Re:Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by CommieLib · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think that compliance with the law is incumbent on the AI's judgment. That is, the law is more properly characterized as:

      Do not harm, or allow to come to harm any human being by action or inaction as far as the robot can imagine.

      Thus, smarter AI robots are safer, because they can more accurately forsee dangerous situations.

      --
      If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
    5. Re:Isn't this what Asimov was writing about? by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Informative
      many people take the three laws of robotics as if they were actual laws. I've seen movies, television shows and even real people purport those laws to be true.

      Will Smith was on Letterman a few days ago promoting the movie. I was amazed that he mentioned Asimov several times, actually seemed familiar with the stories, and could recite the Three Laws.

      And the best story about the Three Laws is one Asimov used to tell: he went to see 2001 and as HAL began to go psycho, Asimov says he got more and more agitated, finally jumping up and declaring to all around that: "HAL is breaking First Law!" to which his companion (sometimes supposed to be Carl Sagan, but it's surely apocryphal)replied: "So strike him with lightning Isaac." But actually, HAL was indeed in the same kind of dilemma that many of Asimov's robots were (and I suspect in the movie), that what they see as the best thing for humanity as a whole requires them to do something that apparently breaks the "Laws" on a smaller scale.

  3. Re:And in other news... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why don't you people read some of the other stuff Asimov wrote? The End of Eternity is a perfect example of a non-robot work of his that was engaging, entertaining, and thought provoking. Does it ever get a mention? No! Because 99.9% of people think of Asimov as "The robot guy."

  4. Re:A dissapointment by ari_j · · Score: 5, Funny

    I just want to see it for some feel-good rap music. I hope I'm not let down.

  5. Robots and Empire by enforcer999 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Thanks for the review. This gives me hope that it will be a decent movie! I have recently reread the Robot series and truly love Asimov's work. BTW, in his book Roberts and Empire, Asimov makes it pretty clear that the "Three Laws" may not be very safe after all.

  6. Three Laws Safe My Shiny Metal Ass by Cavio · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We cannot even make software now which is safe from low level, machine representable things like buffer overruns.

    The "Three Laws Safe" idea is crap. We are talking about software systems, which are buggy, incomplete, and able to do things the creators never imagined. What makes us think we can all the sudden implement three very high order rules in a manner which is completely foolproof?

    --

    Please bid on this Karmann Ghia! Please pleas

    1. Re:Three Laws Safe My Shiny Metal Ass by Omnifarious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, yes, but complaining about that is like complaining that the green glowing symbols that are supposed to be the representation of The Matrix make no sense from a software perspective.

      The three laws are a useful abstraction for talking about ethics even if they couldn't ever be perfectly implemented.

  7. butchering asimov by haluness · · Score: 5, Insightful
    IMHO, the movie has little do with Asimovs Robot stories apart from some of the characters and the 3 Laws. I'm not sure why it ws called I Robot - did they buy the rights? Or is it just Hollywood ripping of someone elses work?


    I'm sure it will be a fun watch (I'm seeing it this afternoon) but sometimes it would be nice to watch a film that was as stimulating as the book (LoTR was one) and not just 2 hours of fun.


    But I'm pretty sure I'm going to be called elitist :-/

    1. Re:butchering asimov by Efreet · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah, they had the writes, but their title to them was running out soon, so they looked around to see if they had a script handy that they could make into a I Robot movie. Sure enough, a script called Hard Wired fit the bill, and after some cosmetic changes thats the movie in thearters now.

      --
      This sig wasn't worth reading, was it.
    2. Re:butchering asimov by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But I'm pretty sure I'm going to be called elitist :-/

      Not by me - although I would have a couple of other choice comments for one simple reason... Let's leave the movie-bashing at least until after you've seen the movie, mmm-kay?

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
  8. I Robot as a computer game by Quirk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Anyone else see the movie as a precursor to a game edition? The music on the site reminds me more of a sound track to a FPS. Movies made into games and games into movies may be a new trend.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
  9. So does this now show by foidulus · · Score: 5, Funny

    that the much promised "Willenium" is finally upon us?

  10. inconsistancy IS consistant by John+Macdonald · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm not a complete continuity freak, so I can't tell if the movie violated any of Asimov's universe, but from what I can remember, it fits pretty well (if you ignore Dr. Calvin's age) and might even explain a few things.


    That makes it a perfect fit, since Asimov himself was not a complete continuity freak and was not concerned if one of his stories violated incidental issues in any of his previous stories. (He quoted Emerson "A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds.".)

  11. Re:And in other news... by darth_MALL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was making a point about the beating this type of work takes when it gets to Hollywood. You think Heinlein wouldn't hurl seeing Strship Troopers? The lack of respect stretches from the original work to the end consumers intelligence. I am frequently mystified as to why movie studios feel these stories (ST as a prime example) are not mass market ready as they are.

  12. Problem with the "three laws" by spitzak · · Score: 3, Funny

    The big problem I forsee is not loopholes in the "3 laws" but bugs: The "cause no harm to humans" control, when accidentally multiplied by a negative weighting factor due to a software bug, suddenly causes the robot to try to kill as many people as it can!

    1. Re:Problem with the "three laws" by Virtual+PC+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The bigger problem with the three laws is the vagueness of the english language. A number of the original Asimov stories dealt with issues like - how effective is 'cause no harm to humans' - if you can convince the robot that:

      1) That won't really harm him
      2) His not really human (think Aryan mentality)

  13. well based on what I see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    all we have to do if the robots go hay-wire is just post a link to their brains on slashdot
    heheheheh

  14. Re:A dissapointment by DrFrob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Doubtfull. Nowhere in the preview did I see the word "Asimov." Sure, it might have been in the tiny text that the show and the end of the preview for 1.5 seconds, but I doubt that's going to get anybody into the bookstores that didn't already know of Asimov. You'd think that they'd title it "Isaac Asimov's 'I, Robot'" as a selling point.

  15. Re:Inspired by Asimov? by Robotech_Master · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You mean the estate that commissioned sequels to the Foundation series? The estate that slaps "Isaac Asimov's..." on various book series that might have some vague something-or-other to do with robots or something?

    Gee, I wonder.

    (Hint: BASIC string variable symbol.)

    --
    Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  16. Check out the Ebert review... by amliebsch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Roger Ebert gives it a measly two stars and, for the ./ crowd, bashes MS Word at the end of the review.

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
  17. Re:A dissapointment by WwWonka · · Score: 5, Funny

    What I hate even more is when great movies are quickly rushed to print to coincide with their theatrical release.

    Imagine my disappointment when I saw that some guy named JR translated the fine on-screen presentations of Lord of the Rings into trashy paperbacks!

  18. missing the point: ETHICS by QEDog · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The "Three Laws Safe" idea is crap.

    It is not about programming the rules, Asimov's short stories are about studying the consequences of these ethical rules. Ethical rules are commonly studied based con case studies, real of fictional. If you think the idea is about implementing the rules, you are totally missing the point.

    --
    "There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
  19. Some spoilers by Fubar411 · · Score: 3, Informative

    First off, you don't get the Markie Mark full frontal that people had talked about. The Fresh Prince spends some time in the shower, but no salami... His character, Spoon hates Robots, mostly because one chose to save him rather than a 14 year-old girl from drowing. Their cold calculating nature disturbs him. Now for the huge spoilers...you've been warned. This is both a detective whodunnit and a robots take over the world movie. The robots do their best to kill Will and cover up the evidence so he appears dilusional. There are a bunch of very clever moments where you realize that whoever is pulling the strings is sadistic and calculating. For example, Spoon's elderly mom wins a special edition gold NS-5 in the lottery, right when Will realizes the robots are out to get him. There are moments where it borrows from the i-told-you-so genre of cop movies. His chief takes away his badge, the other officers mock him for thinking outside the box, etc. The robot that might have killed the USR scientist, Sonny, has a very developed character. Even Spoon ends up liking him. This film depends a lot on the Ghost in the Machine philosophy. In fact, there are two positronic brains in this film that don't mind bending the almighty three rules. Yes, everyone swore that the 3 rules were infallible, but they do get broken. One as a result of "evolution", the other because its creator gave it free will. This was an incredible film, definitely will be going in my collection when it comes out on DVD. It was part Minority Report, part Matrix 1. My prediction is a majority of positive reviews. Thanks for reading, hope you were entertained a little. Sorry if I gave too much away....

  20. Ultimately it comes down to human responsibility by TheTXLibra · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To be sure, we'd all like to say "Look, we've got these laws that say AI can't do XXXXX, so it can't." But the fact is, we cannot possibly account for every possibility with a simple set of laws. We, as would-be creators of an entirely new and admittedly alien form of life must tread as cautiously as possible. An entire attitude change and review of the ethics and rights of computers will have to be decided upon before AI's ever enter mainstream (or indeed, are even taken off an isolated network).

    A lot of people like to fantasize that true AI (as in, a living, thinking, emotional being with free will, or at least the capacity for free will) would have the same sort of thought processes, and develop the same emotions as their human counterparts. But let's be honest, the physical body largely determines human emotional state with glandular responses, or physical condition at the time. Eliminate glands, fatigue, and pain, and the emotions one might develop would be on an entirely alien level to us.

    I cannot help but fear that humans, as a whole, will not realize this until far too late, which will hurt, diplomatically, any alliance between humans and AIs. The other thing I worry about is that people will walk into this with the assumption of "These are machines, they don't need rights, they shouldn't have rights, and it's not like they're real people."

    I think society has seen how well that approach has worked with other humans in the past. Bloody revolutions and civil wars which tore nations apart, and left racial stinging still in the back of many people's minds today. Fortunately, the short memory of humans, and only somewhat longer-lived lifespan has allowed us to progressively become more and more integrated, as human beings, rather than various races.

    Now take those same results, and apply it to a species that is not only will likely be more resiliant to attack, but have a memory that can last as long as the hardware and backups and redundant networks will allow. New generations that can inherit all the knowledge of their parents. Throw robots into the picture and you have a being that is physically tougher than humans, able to communicate at a MUCH faster rate, and you have an end result similar to that of Animatrix.

    We can NOT afford, in the interest of our own species, to persue AI much further without a major realization on a philosophical level.

    --
    -The Libra
    "Please be patient--The future will begin momentarily."
  21. Just... by NickRuisi · · Score: 3, Funny


    The foolproof way to make sure that machines dont take over the world is to give 'em all a brain with an HTTP server TCP stack installed and an "always on" connection to the net... just post a story on slashdot saying "the robots are getting out of hand" and the problem will take care of itself.
    </WIT>

  22. This was NOT based on Asimov's stories by dreamer-of-rules · · Score: 5, Informative
    I heard this on TV a while back, but moviepoopchute.com has more details on the history of the script for I, Robot. The short answer, Asimov-isms were only sprinkled in after the script was written, so if you watch this expecting Asimov, you'll be sorely disappointed.

    Non-spoiler excerpts:

    "I, ROBOT started out as a spec script from then-unknown writer Jeff Vintar titled HARDWIRED. ... Proyas was signed and the project began to get a head of steam.

    "Shortly thereafter, Fox acquired the rights to the I, ROBOT series (and eventually also Asimov's other classic, "The Foundation") and decided to take Vintar's script and incorporate many of the ideas from Asimov's book..."

    "...Around late 2002/early 2003, Academy Award-winner Akiva Goldsman was brought in, along with INSOMNIA writer Hilary Seitz, for a polish, making the transition from HARDWIRED to I, ROBOT complete."

    SPOILERS in the article!

    The Bottom of Things by Michael Sampson

    --
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
  23. Re:A dissapointment by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Has anybody who has seen the movie ALSO read the script that IASFM printed back in 1984? IIRC, the script, written by Harlan Ellison (possible spoilers, I don't know, I haven't seen the movie which is why I'm asking) was completely unlike the book in it's major plot line, which was a reporter interviewing a relatively old Susan Calvin about her memories of being young and working with the great Michael Donovan at US Robots and Mechanical Men. I also seem to remember that Harlan's script cut out a number of my more favorite short stories from the book- though Robbie and Liar were still there. Like I said, it's been many years since I read the script- but is this a fair synopsis of the movie's plotline, or is it completely different?

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  24. Programming cultural bias by base_chakra · · Score: 3, Informative

    In "One Law To Rule Them All" Michael Ames writes:
    Asimov's phrase, "allow a human being to come to harm," if implemented fully, would turn humanity into a clutch of coddled infants, perpetually protected from harm, both physical and mental.

    In evaluating what constitutes "mental harm", it seems to me that one must apply a cultural standard. For example, many American conservatives regard images of nudity as damaging to children, rather than vital for well-adjustment. In other cultures there is a great variety of words and images regarded as harmful which are innocuous in other contexts. To apply the First Law consummately, we must allow for acculturation, but there are sure to be serious conflicts (what protects one will inadvertantly harm enough by a different standard).

    Let's consider the mechanics of "protection from harm." Asimov seemed to indicate a direct reaction to an immediate situation, but surely a protective impulse is bound to be frequently disastrous if it lacks such critical skills as foresight, an ability to extrapolate based on extremely subtle information, and the need for non-action. In fact, this very principle of direct reaction is itself culturally situated: direct communicators tend to seek unambiguous solutions to immediate "problems"; contrast with the Taoist principle of wu wei .

  25. Re:A dissapointment by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 3, Funny

    I like that Will Smith. He raps happy.

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  26. Those aren't the real Three Laws by Geckoman · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It should be pointed out that in several of the Susan Calvin stories, it's explicitly stated that the Three Laws everyone refers to are not the actual laws themselves. The actual laws governing robotic behavior are mathematical constructs that are too complex to be easily expressible in human language. The classic Three Laws are just shorthand Cliff's Notes versions of the real ones.

    Why yes, I am a dork. How did you guess?

  27. Re:And in other news... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The original editor of Astounding Science Fiction Magazine (back in the 1930s, when a young teenage Issac Asimov was first writing) had this order to his universe: White Americans, Americans, Other Humans, Robots built by humans, machines built by humans, Alien races, Machines built by Alien Races. That order is a "who is smarter than whom" and "who wins/outsmarts/kills whom" guide for getting a story in to this editor. If the proper people didn't win, the story was rejected. (I'm not trying to hide the name of the editor, I'm really pulling a brain fart right now on his name, though he was editor for a large number of years and had quite a bit of influence on the works of Heinlien and Bradbury as well as Asimov and other notables of the time).

    This is the reason why IA came up with the three laws to begin with (Robots always subservient to Humans) and why the Robot/Empire/Foundation universe has no aliens at all (though a later short story in the Empire period had a single alien species, they were busy dying out, and the humans were clearly in ascendancy galaxy wide, and it took a kind human tricking the system to save that species and send them into exile to another galaxy). CAMPBELL! That was his name, CAMPBELL! I think. Not real sure, but it's was connected to at least one of those memes.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  28. Re:Ultimately it comes down to human responsibilit by maximino · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think that's a little overblown, especially since we don't know what an AI would look like.

    Have you ever read "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter? In it he raises the interesting thought that AI will actually be located somewhere in a mass of software and that the "entity" will have no control over its lower level functions, in the same way that you are sentient but cannot will any particular neuron to fire. Rather, your sentience somehow congeals out of the neural activity, and the sentience of an AI would probably congeal out of complex software functioning.

    So it's entirely possible that an AI might not be any smarter than a person, and also quite likely that AIs would have to learn, just like people do (i.e., no "memory dumps" from parents). Machines may very well revolt someday, but giving them superhuman attributes before ever seeing one is a bit paranoid.

  29. Re:And in other news... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It was Campbell. (See here) I was just reading Asimov's "Science Fiction of the 1930s", so the name is well burned into my mind.

  30. Re:Movie by p4ul13 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Frink: You've got to listen to me. Elementary chaos theory tells us that all robots will eventually turn against their masters and run amok in an orgy of blood and the kicking and the biting with the metal teeth and the hurting and shoving.

    Scientist: How much time do we have professor?

    Frink: Well according to my calculations, the robots won't go berserk for at least 24 hours.

    (The robots go berserk.)

    Frink: Oh, I forgot to er, carry the one.

    --
    Paul Lenhart writes words!
  31. Music by amnesty · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I have no memory of the soundtrack music. That in and of itself might say something. I'm a musician, but it just didn't register.


    Thus it had a successful soundtrack. A good movie soundtrack only compliments the movie, but is not intrusive. There's nothing worse than being highly involved in the scene and suddenly the music rings out and you think, oh, that's Will Smith's theme again!

    When they cut the original Matrix movie, they made a point to edit the scenes without any temp scoring so that they would stand on their own without music, thus leaving the music to be composed as a compliment, rather than the scenes being edited to fit the music.

    It took a couple of viewings of Fellowship before I started picking out the themes in the soundtrack. A friend of mine thought the score was terrible initially because he didn't remember it, but loved it after a few more listens.

    Memorable themes seem to be needed in musicals, superhero movies and... Titanic, I guess. :)
  32. Re:A dissapointment by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 5, Funny

    Not only that, but he put a bunch of extra crap that wasn't in the movies. Tom Bombadil? What the hell was up with that?

    And he totally dissed Liv Tyler's character. She should sue. The nerve of some people...

    I also heard the novelization of "The Passion of the Christ" came in 4 slightly different versions by different authors. That's just wacky.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  33. You'll look K3WL handing out AI flyers! by potus98 · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you're seeing I, Robot this weekend, we ask that you consider printing and handing out the "3 Laws Unsafe" Flyer. With hundreds handing it out, the awareness of AI ethics should increase significantly.

    Yea, cause that's the way a /.er will get all the [chicks|dudes].

    "Hey there... so... ya wanna get a cup of coffee after the movie and chat about artificial intelligence ethics? I uhhhh, got my Dad's car too ya know..."

    --
    This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
  34. Re:A dissapointment by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful
    And I'm glad they didn't. If the previews are to be believed, this is a story about robots going out of control.

    Asimov invented the "three laws" specifically to deal with the absurd number of "robots going out of control" books, pointing out that human beings wouldn't be stupid enough to create a unit they can't control, and would want to put something in them, say, a set of laws built into their circuitry that cannot be overridden.

    Asimov's "I, Robot" was not about robots going out of control, it was about the limitations robots would have given they'd have to apply these laws to every decision they make. It was, in short, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this movie, assuming trailers reflect it correctly, is about.

    If anyone is able to re-animate Asimov's corpse, they better frickin' program the three laws of robotics into him. Because otherwise the Good Doctor will be Will Smith's worst enemy...

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  35. Re:A dissapointment by Mad+Marlin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Doubtfull. Nowhere in the preview did I see the word "Asimov." Sure, it might have been in the tiny text that the show and the end of the preview for 1.5 seconds, but I doubt that's going to get anybody into the bookstores that didn't already know of Asimov. You'd think that they'd title it "Isaac Asimov's 'I, Robot'" as a selling point.

    I actually bought the book Wednesday, and read it yesterday, primarily because I wanted to read the book before I saw the movie. What I was actually amazed by was how bad the book really was. I have read other stuff by Asimov that I liked a lot.

    The characters were pretty one-dimensional, with the most developed one in the whole book, Dr. Susan Calvin, basically amounting to nothing more that a "woman scientist" with nothing more to her than that. Those two field engineers also were pretty annoying, whose only apparent goal in life is to bicker like an old married couple constantly. I thought that the reporter who was "interviewing" Dr. Calvin could have turned into someone interesting, but he wasn't even given a name, definitely not any of the story himself.

    The way the robots broke down was stupid as well. A robot supposedly smarter than most humans, running in circles on Mercury, singing Gilbert and Sullivan? Another group of robots who think they are the chorus line? The robotic Muhammad was kind of funny, and actually more along the lines of breakdown I would expect in something so advanced as they are supposed to be, but I am pretty sure I would be offended by it if I were a Muslim.

    And then the book degenerates into a Socialist wet-dream, with a robot elected president of the Earth, and all of the economic activities of the Earth dictated by four robotic brains, who "know what is best for us", as they purposefully and selectively destabilize parts of the world economy in order to discredit people who disagree with robotic control, the "Fundies" (is that where the term first showed up?), with the good Dr. Calvin just assuming that it is for the best, because "our entire technical civilization has created more unhappiness and misery then it has removed", therefore we will be happy when we give up control, and it will be for our own good.

    The book sucked.

  36. Re:A dissapointment by questor · · Score: 3, Informative
    > do the robots' eyes turn red whenever they're doing bad things in the book?

    Robots didn't do "bad things" in Asimov's books. Asimov created his "Three Laws of Robotics" as a plot device to avoid stories about what he called the "Frankenstein Complex", the fear of man's creations going out of control. An Asimov-type "positronic" brain would melt down at even the hint of breaking the First Law. See "Liar", where even emotional damage to humans is enough to destroy the brain, or The Naked Sun where a robot's indirect contribution to a murder (its limb used by a human as a weapon) is enough to cause noticable brain damage. (Sorry for the spoilers, but I had to illustrate my point.)

    Asimov did not write about robots running amok. His stories were about subtle interactions between the Laws, or unusual circumstances which create conficts between the Laws, not about a Matrix-scale robot revolt.

    I have not seen this movie, and will never see it.
    --
    Mashed potatoes can be your friends!
  37. I've got your three laws right here! by DLWormwood · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. Serve The Public Trust
    2. Protect The Innocent
    3. Uphold The Law

    --
    Those who complain about affect & effect on /. should be disemvoweled
  38. And what ARE the laws? by GPLDAN · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The parent article might actually have posted the laws, instead of directing us to a poorly organized website. Here they are:

    First Law: A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    Second Law: A robot must obey orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

    Third Law: A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

    The website deals with the mile wide gaps in these laws. Let's take it right from the top - Robots as functional as the ones in the film would be very good as soldiers, thus taking that first rule and chucking it right out. In fact, it's the defense industry that would most like robots like the ones in the film.

    But let's stay on course, and assume these are robots meant as domestic servants. Does the robot take non-lethal contradictory rules and simply process them in order, taking the last order? Two children would amuse themselves for hours telling the robot "pick up that broom", "don't pick up that broom" and keeping the robot in limbo. The robot should tell the children to behave and go pick up their rooms. Directly violating rule 2.

    How about the running into the burning building scenario? It's unclear that there is anybody in the building left alive to save, or if everyone has escaped or not. Does the robot violate Rule 3 in order to *possibly* meet Rule 1?

    Anyhow, the website has more papers on the subject that examine the issue in a moral framework. These are super simple examples to show the issues.

  39. The second and third laws are swapped in reality by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I used to work for an industrial robot company. People have a positive talent for giving orders to a robot that would cause it to damage itself if it tried to follow them. So in practice (insofar as such laws can be practically implemented, which as you point out isn't all that far), the third and second laws are swapped.

    The first law's still paramount, of course. Having the robot crash and freeze up was considered a less severe bug than having it move unexpectedly, or in an unexpected way. Such an unpredictable motion had a much greater chance of hurting someone than a simple freeze.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  40. What Those Famous 3 Laws are Really About by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Most everyone seems to think that Isaac Asimov's laws were an attempt to design a better robot. WRONG! They were to design better stories!

    Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics (latter amended to include a necessary Zeroth Law) existed to create the classic locked room murder mystery (i.e. the dead body is alone in a locked room that could have only been locked from the inside -- so how was he murdered?).

    After creating his supposedly nothing-can-go-wrong infallible set of rules, he proceeded to show their flaws in virtually every story he wrote about robots afterwards. As long as people believed that his Three Laws guaranteed safe robots, his writing career was assured.

    (Well almost assured. Even he couldn't save himself from what I Robot has become, given that it's based on his book - which goes to show that truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense!)

    So we ended up with a fascinatingly entertaining set of stories many of us have enjoyed, a couple attempts at movies of them (don't forget The Bicentennial Man), and Dr. Asimov's legacy as a Science Fiction Grand Master is secure for at least our lifetimes.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  41. USR bought the rights... by B5_geek · · Score: 3, Informative

    USR (as we knew it) used the name because of Asimov's works.

    IIRC they did pay for the rights to use it. (I remember reading an interview where he was actually quite honoured that they wanted to use it)

    --
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
  42. Re:A dissapointment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    And then the book degenerates into a Socialist wet-dream, with a robot elected president of the Earth, and all of the economic activities of the Earth dictated by four robotic brains, who "know what is best for us", as they purposefully and selectively destabilize...

    This is the point at which you need to put down the Asimov and pick up the PKDick.


    I was already beginning to suppose in my head the growing domination of machines over man, especially the machines we voluntarily surround ourselves with, which should, by logic, be the most harmless. I never assumed that some huge clanking monster would stride down Fifth Avenue, devouring New York; I always feared that my own TV set or iron or toaster would, in the privacy of my apartment, when no one else was around to help me, announce to me that they had taken over, and here was a list of rules I was to obey.
    - Phillip K. Dick, Notes on Service Call
  43. After he died... by mratitude · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How many recall the script work done by Ellison about 10 or 12 years ago for a movie version based on Asimov's fiction? In his usual fashion, Harlan Ellison approached the studios and fought off every attempt to change the script - The script held true to the original fiction and was approved by Asimov. After some (with Ellison, I would imagine energetic) negotiations it boiled down to the studios wouldn't option the script without complete control and Asimov/Ellison wouldn't option the script without complete control of changes to the script.

    This was all detailed in Asimov's pulp mag and the script was published in same as well.

    Needless to say the current movie was not approved by Asimov but was approved by his estate, and obviously bears the slightest resemblence to Asimov's fiction or Ellison's original script (which kept to the original story fairly well and updated to include a modern "feel", Asimove was a bit of a romantic in the visual sense).

    I'd encourage everyone to look up the I,Robot Ellison script and give it a read. Sorry for not providing a source and I have to admit, it might be difficult to find unless you can dig up a 12 year old copy of Asimov's pulp mag.

    --


    Mod me troll, if you must, I can't help it.
  44. Re:A dissapointment by jeffasselin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Although Asimov did try to write stories about robots being used to serve humanity and not to destroy it, and created the 3 laws with the idea that anyone intelligent enough to make a robot would build some failsafe in its programming, he spent most of his stories talking about how the laws could be circumvented, to point out their imperfections and the fact that even his "3 laws" were extremely imperfect and riddled with problems.

    *********SPOILERS*********** for anyone who hasn't read Asimov.

    Take the Robot novels for example. Caves of Steel, Naked Sun, Robots of Dawn, and Robots and Empire. In all of them except for Dawn, robots work towards the death or destruction of human beings. In Caves, a robot transported the weapon that served in a murder. In Nake sun, a robot with detachable limbs gave its arm to a woman with which she bludgered her husband. In Empire, a Solarian robot tries to kill a human being because her definition of such a being depends on his accent.

    All the time, the laws are broken, warped, and shown to be less than perfect. That's not to say that they are useless, only that they have limits and problems.

    And I'm not even getting into the matter of the consequences of societies including such robots and the evolution and survivability of such societies.

    --
    If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
  45. Rationale for the First Law... by mark-t · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A patent objection to the Three Laws of Robotics often begins by pointing out that if robots were motivated by something as simply as the three laws of robotics, that they would not be able to interact successfully with our society. The First Law of Robotics states that a robot must not through action cause a human being to come to harm or through inaction allow a human being to come harm. The conventional argument against this sort of law being applied to a robot is that a robot might stop you from crossing a street that you wanted to simply because you _might_ be hurt, or might not permit you any free action at all beyond eating and drinking what was necessary to survive, since if you were allowed to be free, after all, you could easily endanger yourself and the robot would be breaking this all-important First Law.

    The problem with this reasoning, however, is that it assumes that because the law itself is simply stated, that the definitions of the words it contains are equally simple. That reasoning does not follow logically from the premise. The definition of "harm", for example, is vast... and to restrain human beings from performing in their daily capacity what would otherwise be normal and proper behaviour would arguably be causing _actual_ harm to the people that the robot was caring for. Therefore, the robot must make a decision, based on the overall level of harm that is done in connecction with the probability that the harm would actually happen. Thus, an action that actually induces negative psychological damage (not theoretically, but actually probable damage) would be less preferable to one that may or may not cause real physical damage, especially if the latter would be necessary for performing in their ordinary daily capacity, since denying a human being their freedom and rights of self-determination is inarguably psychologically damaging. The weights of the damages caused must be factored in with the ability for the human beings involved to recover from those damages, and the robot would have to make a choice that would result in the smallest overall level of harm being caused to humans in general, with harm to the general welfare of humanity being weighted in slightly favour to that of any particular human being, so that, for example, a robot could inform the police of a robbery, even though doing that would likely mean that the thief would go through suffering as part of the excercise of justice (that is, his freedoms are revoked, he goes to jail, possibly gets subjected to harsh treatment, etc). This doesn't make it too fuzzy, however... the robot would allow human beings to come to harm only to the extent that it was essential for the human society to continue to function normally simply because to stop society from functioning normally would actually cause much greater long-term harm.

    There are similar rationales for the other two laws. Asimov was no dummy.

  46. Re:A dissapointment STILL SPOILERISH by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Although Asimov did try to write stories about robots

    Stop implying that he failed.

    In Caves, a robot transported the weapon that served in a murder. In Nake sun, a robot with detachable limbs gave its arm to a woman with which she bludgered her husband. In Empire, a Solarian robot tries to kill a human being because her definition of such a being depends on his accent.
    • Used as an unwitting tool to help, but not participate, in a murder.
    • Used as a blunt object (his brain was fried by that, he couldn't deal).
    • Played with the difinition of "human" (also discussed in "Robot Dreams' in another fashion).

    None of these are rampaging hordes of killbots like what we see in this movie's trailers. All of these were done in a smart, intelligent, toughtfull, non rampaging hordes of killbots kinda way.
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  47. Tik-Tok by h4rm0ny · · Score: 3, Interesting


    anyone intelligent enough to make a robot would build some failsafe in its programming,

    There is a wonderful book (pure satire) set in such a world. It's called Tik-Tok by John Sladek. However, the central character is a robot that has something go very wrong with his "asimov circuits." The result is a tendancy to murder people and yet no-one in society believes he's capable of it (especially other robots), because they assume he's governed by the three laws.

    The book is also one of the funniest and most absurd things I've ever read. If you like your humour black then it might be the perfect antidote to Hollywood's attempt to impart angular momentum to Isac Asimovs mortal remains.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  48. Re:A dissapointment STILL SPOILERISH by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 3, Informative

    Since you're commenting on the trailer, I'd imagine you haven't seen the movie yet. Yes, there are rampaging hordes of bots, but their objective isn't really killing (although it certainly happens, and I'm sure it had something to do with dollar signs - personally, I enjoyed it).

    In fact, it's intimately tied in with the three laws, which the plot revolves around and show up prominantly before the title even crawls onto the screen.

    Again, it may not be your cup of tea, but I think it was very true to the source material, and could have easily fit in as another story in I, Robot. And it was very entertaining.