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The Anarchist in the Library

The Importance of writes "Siva Vaidhyanathan, an Assistant Professor in the Department of Culture and Communication at New York University, defender of Fair Use, and the author of Copyrights and Copywrongs (Slashdot interview), is branching out beyond copyright issues in his latest book, The Anarchist in the Library: How the Clash Between Freedom and Control is Hacking the Real World and Crashing the System." Read on for the rest of The Importance Of's review. The Anarchist in the Library: How the Clash Between Freedom and Control is Hacking the Real World and Crashing the System author Siva Vaidhyanathan pages 256 publisher Basic Books rating 9 reviewer The Importance of ISBN 0465089844 summary A thoughtful but pointed examination of the sparring roles of centralized control and anarchy in the control of and creation of information.

Basically, the book puts the information battles relating to culture and copyright into a broader context, ranging from Parisian enlightenment cafes through the latest copyright battles to the Zapatistas and Falun Gong. Unlike many recent books that deal with these issues, Siva doesn't approach them from a legal perspective so much as from a political/cultural/media theory basis. But don't let that scare you, the book is as readable as it is wide-ranging.

At its most basic level, The Anarchist in the Library is about control of information, both cultural and political. As Siva says in the last chapter, "This book was supposed to be about entertainment - the battle over control of digital music, text, and video ... But as I researched this new project, the world shifted beneath my feet ... My concerns moved to the regulation and control of all sorts of information, much of it cultural, much of it political." Thus, throughout the book, Siva contrasts two very different regimes of information control: oligarchy and anarchy.

Oligarchy we are all familiar with. It is the traditional, centralized control of information by the few. It is the system that, for the most part, we all grew up with and continues to be the default today. On the other hand, we've all heard of anarchy, but most of us aren't familiar with its deeper meanings and history. Siva helps us to understand anarchy as a serious positive political philosophy, something more than merely a reaction to oligarchy. To his credit, however, Siva fully endorses neither position. His is a course of moderation, avoiding the excesses and pitfalls of both sides.

The other theme that runs throughout the book is that of cynicism. Here Siva contrasts the civically engaged cynicism of the Greek philosopher Diogenes of Sinope, with the narcissistic cynicism of Seinfeld's George Costanza. Why cynicism? In Siva's words, "What could be a more ideal environment for a cynic than cyberspace...?" The question, however, is whether and how we can promote the responsible and humane cynicism of Diogenes vs. the shallow, rude and selfish cynicism of Costanza. Of course, it sort of depends on how you define rude. To make a point, Diogenes once masturbated in the market square. Says Siva, with tongue in cheek but also a valid point, "And nothing represents the overall nature and substance of the Internet better than masturbating in the marketplace."

Diogenes' zealous humanity is also an especially important consideration of Siva's. Whenever possible, Siva emphasizes consideration of the humane over cold theory. It is this concern with the humane, I think, that draws Siva from engaging with Metallica's issues with P2P to questions of terrorism and networks.

Framed by these themes, Siva proceeds to dig through the many information control issues that have come to the fore these past few years or so. He starts with Peer-to-Peer, of course, and moves through many of the issues constantly showing up in "Your Rights Online" such as MP3s, DeCSS, the broadcast flag, the Phantom Edit and many, many others. The path is not random, however; Siva is demonstrating the reactions between oligarchic control and anarchic response in the creation of culture, and that culture requires, even demands, some anarchy in order to thrive.

From this point, Siva begins to leave the world of digital rights and begins to explore other means of controlling information and culture, such as the subtle, sometimes nearly invisible assumptions made by many international institutions through trade policy and market regulations. The book also discusses how information and cultural controls (such as the PATRIOT Act) grow out of security concerns and fear.

At this point in the book, some readers who might have been nodding along in agreement so far may begin to disagree with some of the points Siva makes, as he takes on the WTO riots, "Techno-Libertarianism," and the war in Iraq. But the book is no thoughtless, radical polemic; it seeks a moderate, well-articulated and researched middle ground.

In the end, Siva's moderation is demonstrated as he concludes that there are seldom easy answers in a world where control of information and culture is sometimes necessary. Without giving specific answers, Siva argues for approaching problems from a particular perspective: with engaged, humane cynicism and a commitment to civic republicanism, both within and without our borders. It is a perspective well worth reading about.

[Full disclosure: I've met Siva a couple of times at conferences and corresponded with him by email on occasion. I would consider him a friend in the fight against copyright maximalism.]

You can purchase The Anarchist in the Library: How the Clash Between Freedom and Control is Hacking the Real World and Crashing the System from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews. To see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

33 of 377 comments (clear)

  1. Is this in english? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    humane cynicism of Diogenes vs. the shallow, rude and selfish cynicism of Costanza

    Ummm, this means that Seinfeld was right to live across from Kramer, right?

  2. We are all anarchists by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "On the other hand, we've all heard of anarchy, but most of us aren't familiar with its deeper meanings and history. Siva helps us to understand anarchy as a serious positive political philosophy, something more than merely a reaction to oligarchy."

    Nice to see a more nuanced definition of anarchy than we usually get in the mainstream news. For example, with the political conventions almost upon us, and protests scheduled for each, watch how often the mainstream press managed to slip in the word "anarchists" to describe some of the protestors, with the implication that anarchists are only interested in causing destruction.

    In fact, here on /., we are all anarchists (well, other than the Microsoft toadies and PR people and the like). We don't want centralized control of information, but rather a free flow of ideas. Whoa, dude, like that makes us like anarchists or something! Relax, doesn't mean you're going to throw a brick through a Starbucks windows. Real anarchists don't do such destructive acts. That's the job of undercover police officers trying to make protestors look bad (I joke, I joke, such a thing could never, ever happen, huh?)

    1. Re:We are all anarchists by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Insightful


      At it's core, Anarchy has a faith in mankind. The general reasoning is that any form of government can become corrupt because the people it is comprised of can become corrupt. The only revolution that will really change things is a social one, one that deals with people. If that can be achieved, then the question of what system of government to use comes down to one of efficiency, which is anarchy. Anarchy is more efficient because it is willing and unrestricted co-operation.

      Anarchy is a faith in people's ability to work together without coercian. It is most definitely not disorganisation - just lack of control.

      It's rather cruel to post a geocities site on /. but for the lucky first hundred or so, you can find some interesting information on Anarchy here. And more is here

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    2. Re:We are all anarchists by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 3, Informative
      -archy refers to ruling/ordering... In this concept the ordering of leadership.
      Oligarchy is the leadership of the few
      Hierarchy Leadership by level (height)
      anarchy the 'an' prefix means 'without' or 'not needing' as in anerobic bacteria (don't need air). or anachronism (outside it's time).

      Anarchy is not the same as disorder. It's a situation where there are not static leaders. People might (and often do) show up to take things on, and gain respect for what they do. Other people can (and sometimes do) come in and duplicate and/or replace those other active and respecte members.

      In an anarchy, one does not get respect by being a leader. One becomes an effective leader as a function of gained respect.

      The early years of The Internet were especially like this. Anybody who wanted to could easily put their two bits into any discussion. Standards really became standards by use, and the years (sometimes) of discussions leading up to the creation of 'official' net standards occured because people realized that getting a consensus meant two things:
      1: If everybody agreed, it would get wide implementation and acceptance very quickly.
      2: If everybody agreed, there was likely not to be any big, unexpected, 'show-stoppers'.
      ( A side-effect was that internet protocols tended to allow a lot of freedom, such that things like the world wide web and P2P could be become centerpieces of the 'net more than a decade after the underlying protocols were designed).

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    3. Re:We are all anarchists by kfg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anarchy is not the same as disorder. It's a situation where there are not static leaders.

      The best pragmatic definition of an anarchist I know is "Someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do."

      KFG

    4. Re:We are all anarchists by h4rm0ny · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Tad of a contradiction, no?

      Well, no actually, although I see how you read my post. Getting past our corruption is a pre-requisite for a successful anarchist society, hence the dream of such a society holds the implicit faith in mankind's ability to achieve such a state.

      1) abolish the state 2) ???? 3) utopia!

      I think it's worth taking a little longer to consider anarchist theory in depth before dismissing it - there is a great deal out there. One thing worth mentioning is that anarchism is not 'abolish' the state but more a case of make it redundant. For anarchy in action consider local currencies such as Ithaca Hours or more impressive (to my mind), Calgary dollars and these

      I believe there is some grounds to consider our current system of government (I'm in the UK) as promoting corruption, by placing excessive power in the hands of small numbers of people, instead of distributing that responsibility to a wider number, and also by concealing information and the decision making process from the public.

      Anyway, I now have work to do. Any answers to questions and objections in reply to this post can probably be found in the links in my original post. Kropotkin will put the case better than I can. ;) You may or may not agree, and the anarchist ideals may or may not be right, but there is definitely a great deal of thought put into it by a lot of very smart people and it's worth at least knowing about it before dismissing it.

      Power to the people! ;)

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    5. Re:We are all anarchists by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Interesting


      I've never understood if there is one political ideology based on anarchy or two. One where people think it's good to smash windows and one where they do not (and, presumably, a lot of other stuff).

      The same can be applied to Capitalism, Christianity and just about any other group you care to name that doesn't have strict membership control.

      I'll speak first as someone who has participated in some very large protests (mainly anti-war) which have attracted a large number of people who describe themselves as anarchist. The vast majority were very peacable, even one time in the face of police aggression in Bristol, UK. Nor did they support property damage. They pretty much denounced such people as not being proper anarchists in the same way that hackers denounce script kiddies, muslims denounce Al Quaeda and Americans denounce Bush (at least on /. ).

      However, I would say that the most fundamental definition of anarchy is that mankind is better off living without central control than with and this does not comment on violence one way or another. Nevertheless, few anarchists have such a low-level definition of anarchy. You can find anarcho-captialist factions, anarcho-socialist factions, and others, but most (all?) of these begin to denounce violence. Once you begin to use violence to get your way then whatever your intentions were, you'll find it very hard to stop using violence.

      The non-window smashing anarchy that you are interested in consists of finding ways of returning people's repsonsibility for their lives to them, taking it back from the government. The example I usually use is local currencies. See here, but as I'm on /. the best example would probably be Linux. There is organization, but authority is not imposed, it merely arises through the consensus view.

      In this sense Anarchy seems very much like a more humane capitalism; humane because anarchists are usually very community orientated. They have to be community orientated because the intention is to replace Government force with self-governance. However, likening anarchy to enlightened capitalism is only my view. Others will draw closer parallels to Socialism. In reality it is neither - it is simply the belief that mankind functions better working together willingly and co-operatively, than he does through force and the threat of force (which is what government is based on.) If you find your belief falls under this then it is in accord with anarchism.

      There are few hard and fast definitions, but like hacking, it is only outsiders who think anarchism==criminal. More depth can be found here. Whether you agree with anarchism or not, if you find a group of them, you can usually be sure of some lively political debate. ;)

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    6. Re:We are all anarchists by Hatta · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, there are (at least) 2 schools of thought in anarchist theory. There's the libertarian socialist branch, stemming from people like Bakunin and Kropotkin. More recently, and more strictly american, an individualist (and sometimes even capitalist) branch has developed, the originator of which is Max Stirner.

      The latter has devolved and been co-opted by punks (in both senses of the word) who just think it's cool to spray paint "A" on things and wouldn't know who Proudhon was if you hit them with a copy of Qu'est-ce que la propriété. An elegant dismissal of such tactics can be found in "You can't blow up a social relationship.

      If you would like to learn more about serious, thoughtful anarchism, I'd recommend reading Kropotkin's article for the Encyclopedia Britannica, and the Anarchist FAQ at infoshop. Personally however, I think the finest, most consice, and most persuasive statement of the ideals of anarchism can be found in Thoreau's Civil Disobedience.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  3. Anarchy by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 4, Funny

    So where can I download it?

  4. Why do anarchists drink herbal tea? by Neil+Blender · · Score: 5, Funny

    Because proper tea is theft!

  5. Quote from the article. by marcello_dl · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the end, Siva's moderation is demonstrated as he concludes that there are seldom easy answers in a world where control of information and culture is sometimes necessary.

    Ok, I know that to elaborate on this one should read the fine book, anyway: the problem is not whether information and culture should be controlled, but the fact that in modern world such control Cannot Be Achieved without artificial barriers imposed to the people. Most people resent that and they are right.

    In other words, one thing is the government censoring the press and the tv, but censoring internet access and fruition is different. It's more personal, like revoking freedom of speech.

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  6. Control of Culture? by isotope23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "In the end, Siva's moderation is demonstrated as he concludes that there are seldom easy answers in a world where control of information and culture is sometimes necessary"???

    I was with him till this sentence. The control of culture is sometimes necessary???

    I for one do not welcome our new Brittany spears-Clearchannel-Fox news overlords....

    As for the control of information, that imo is a red-herring too. In a "free" society, there should be no control of information as the free flow of information is crucial to an informed citizenry, and thus to civilian oversight of governmental deeds and misdeeds.

    --
    Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
    1. Re:Control of Culture? by Jane_Dozey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How about control of sensitive and possibly dangerous information? How about your medical records?
      These types of information I can see as being controlled by nessessity.
      Also, some cultural behaviours are deemed anti-social. Such as cannibalism. In some places this might have been acceptable, but in others it is not. Should this be uncontrolled?
      I'm all for freedom of information and freedom of expression, but not when it's damaging to other people.

      --
      Silly rabbit
    2. Re:Control of Culture? by torpor · · Score: 2

      The control of culture is sometimes necessary???


      Yes. Definitely. Culture is nothing but Control.

      It _IS_ necessary to control 'culture', but what ... is ... 'culture' if it isn't change, or at the very least 'difference'?

      This is one of those area's where there are no true absolutes.

      Yes, cultures must control themselves, lest they ignore the fundamental rudiments of human existence (eat, sleep, drink, fuck, shit, die), but at the same time, cultures must maintain an excellent pace of change, lest the constituent membership tire and ... move off to some other village more worthy of their labor.

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  7. Re:With a name like that... by sunilonline · · Score: 2, Informative

    You know, I feel insulted. That's a perfectly legitimate Hindu name. There's tens of thousands of Indians in New York, and in the tech field for that matter. Don't be so culturally apathetic.

  8. Cynicism? by Bingo+Foo · · Score: 2, Funny
    The other theme that runs throughout the book is that of cynicism.

    Oh, yeah. Sure it does.

    --
    taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
  9. Anarchy as information control? by frostman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...throughout the book, Siva contrasts two very different regimes of information control: oligarchy and anarchy.

    Perhaps this is explained in the book, but I don't think it's obvious how anarchy is a "regime of information control."

    If you have that messy sort of anarchy - the type that usually just means no central authority in what people still want to consider a state - then it's not really the anarchy that's controlling your information, it's the control structures that have taken hold in the absence of central power.

    This is probably just a case of lazy writing, but I wish there were an explanation of what the reviewer meant here.

    --

    This Like That - fun with words!

  10. The Right To Stay The Same. by torpor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One thing that all these so-called intellectuals fail to take into account in their calls for revolution, is the fact that authors - people who actually take the time to sit down and write, for their readers, something worth reading - have a right to not have their works consistently and persistently changed.

    The Natural Universe already takes its toll on every single word. Entropy is a tempest. As human beings, if there is one thing that our cultures has produced, is the evident desire to be something.

    The right to be extends to authors. If I have published something, I have a right to not have that thing be constantly changed and altered by the world at large.

    So far, technology has produced the paradox that it is simultaneously capable of reproducing things, perfectly, and guarantee'ing their 'sameness' ... at the same time ensuring that persistent, consistent, alteration is the only constant.

    People who have something to say, have a right to be heard. That right includes the stipulation that, if you are relaying what someone has to say about something, to someone else, you have a responsibility not to alter that work.

    Its an absolute, and we all know how impossible they can be, but change for the sake of change is destructive ... Intellectuals discussing 'property of intelligence' rights ought to factor that a lot more than they do. I didn't walk away from "The Anarchist In the Library" with anything more than yet-another dialectic view that 'the only true alternative to something is its opposite'.

    And we know how tired a philosophical stance that is. Booo---orring... Bring on the real intellectuals, the ones who are capable of a little more than just pedantic materialism...

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    1. Re:The Right To Stay The Same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      wtf are you going on about?

      If you write something what you write still exists even if someone makes a new version that has been changed.

      To put it in terms a programmer can understand Larry Wall put it like this: "When perl 6 comes out you'll still have perl 5, you aren't going to lose anything"

      Also authors are always so paranoid thinking someone is going to go tinkering with their work. Think of how many classic texts are out of copyright? Do people read some kind of funky edited redo version of Kant or do they just read the original Kant? If lack of copyright means all work will get warped and edited into something else how do you explain the fact that almost every single classic text that has an expired copyright still is printed in its original form?

      Then again look at Shakespeare...did the hiphop version of Othello "O" or whatever diminish Shakespeares original work? Does anyone think the script for "O" was actually written by Shakespeare himself? No, I don't think so.

      Authors always claims it's about "information integrity" crap but I know of no example where some authors work was molested in the way you fear. So really, let's face it, it's all about the cash...

      Finally as language changes the meaing of your work will change. How many idiots have misinterpreted Hegel and Marx becuase of a failure to understand what they had meant by the dialectic, or idealism and materialism. The way they are used by the great philosophers is not the same way joe 21st-century-cs-major uses them and as such he will probably fail to understand wtf is being discussed. So what happens when in 200 years from now your original writing is misunderstood because the language itself has shifted out from under you? You could have copyright last 1000 years it still won't save you from that...

    2. Re:The Right To Stay The Same. by notfancy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      authors [...] have a right to not have their works consistently and persistently changed

      No. Rights are the actual benefits of the social contract, and as the latter changes the former obviously do too. If there is no god-given social contract, there cannot be god-given rights. Inasmuch gods vary from society to society, there can't be the god-given social contract, hence your categorical assertion is mere wishful thinking.

      In "primitive" societies without the concept of authorship, the bards and singers would pass their yarns to be respun and reweaved by the community. Some of us do it too, with spoofs and parodies "to be sung to the tune of".

    3. Re:The Right To Stay The Same. by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 2, Insightful
      People who have something to say, have a right to be heard.


      Says whom?


      You have a right to speak, certainly. I'm not so sure about a right to be heard. What does that mean, anyway?

    4. Re:The Right To Stay The Same. by aristus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If I have published something, I have a right to not have that thing be constantly changed and altered by the world at large.

      ...so in your perfect world, quoting you would be prohibited. Lemme give you a hint: time is a great long river that washes away everything that is not essential, even your name. The people downstream take what they need for their time, and let the rest wash away. Nothing you do can change that.

      --

      --
      Sometimes seventeen/Syllables aren't enough to/Express a complete
    5. Re:The Right To Stay The Same. by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "People who have something to say, have a right to be heard."
      wrong.
      They have the right to say it, but they do not have the right to make people hear it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  11. thoughtless radical vs moderate well-articulated by Cryofan · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You wrote:

    "But the book is no thoughtless, radical polemic; it seeks a moderate, well-articulated and researched middle ground."



    Looks someone has been eating up those top-down memes with a spoon! And a big spoon, too!


    Look, radicals are just about the only humans who actually DO think; everyone else just outputs a program. Well, that may be a little overbroad, but that is the gist of it.....

    --
    eat shiat and bark at the moon
  12. Anarchy, Chaos and a middle ground by Bob_Robertson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the errors I often see is people confusing "anarchy" with "chaos". They two do not equate. There is no assumption of disorder or destruction with anarchy, unlike chaos. Anarchy is simply the individual choosing rather than having those choices made for them.

    One of the more interesting aspects of Libertarian politics is a dedication to the principles of the constitution of the US, the Declaration of Independence, and other such things. As "The Importance Of" points out, this is a middle ground.

    The original copyright and patent, for example, was enacted for only a limited time. This bears little resemblance to todays unlimited copyright. The abuse is based on the fact that politicians have only one motivation: Election. They sell law to the highest bidder.

    This looks like a good book, and I hope to find a pirate e-version on the P2P networks soon.

    (oh no, I'd never do that. really.)

    Bob-

    --
    The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
    1. Re:Anarchy, Chaos and a middle ground by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "One of the more interesting aspects of Libertarian politics is a dedication to the principles of the constitution of the US, the Declaration of Independence, and other such things"

      There was a time when "Libertarian" meant being aware of the holes in those documents as well.

      I see that time has passed. Big surprise.

      I guess Bob Black is more right than ever: "Libertarians are just Republicans who smoke dope."

      But then the big-L "Libs" were always just "limited statists" - and never as "limited" as they wanted you to believe.

      --
      Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  13. Cynics by MrHanky · · Score: 4, Informative
    The other theme that runs throughout the book is that of cynicism. Here Siva contrasts the civically engaged cynicism of the Greek philosopher Diogenes of Sinope, with the narcissistic cynicism of Seinfeld's George Costanza.

    It should be noted that the philosophical cynicism of the old Greeks has very little in common with the ironical and misanthropical sort of cynicism we think of these days. It's the same word, but a very different concept.

    Philosophical cynicism was based on a doctrine of self control and asceticism. George Costanza's sort of cynisism is completely unrelated, and not philosophical at all -- it's just an attitude. Contrasting these seem pointless to me, but I haven't read the book. Diogenes was a funny guy, though.
    1. Re:Cynics by hammy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Diogenes is very funny. You should read his account of the time his mother came home and found him masterbating... Hilarious. ;)

  14. Anarchy and Chaos - one and the same? by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the errors I often see is people confusing "anarchy" with "chaos". They two do not equate. There is no assumption of disorder or destruction with anarchy, unlike chaos. Anarchy is simply the individual choosing rather than having those choices made for them.

    In the real world, there's little difference. Sooner or later, someone will make a choice that relieves you of a choice-- robbery, rape, murder, etc.

    Larry Niven wrote an excellent short story on this, called Cloak of Anarchy (http://www.larryniven.org/stories/cloak_of_anarch y.htm).

    One could argue what point Mr. Niven was trying to make, but when I read it, I was well into being an anarchist, and that story started me on the road out.

    1. Re:Anarchy and Chaos - one and the same? by ratamacue · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Are you assuming that under anarchy, nobody would have the ability to protect themselves, or retaliate against the initiation of force?

      You need to dig deeper before making such assumptions. Anarchy does not mean that security cannot exist -- it simply means that security would be provided through private enterprise (voluntary cooperation) rather than a forced collective. There is no objective reason why a service currently achieved through force couldn't be achieved through voluntary participation.

      In the real world, there's little difference.

      In the real world, there's no such thing as anarchy, and no such society will emerge during our lifetimes. The reason is simple. If a successful (peaceful, prosperous, voluntary) society were to emerge with no government (where the "right" to initiate force does not exist), it would be promptly destroyed by the current world superpower. There is absolutely no way that a person of policial power, who owes his success to organized coercion, is going to sit around and watch as a successful anarchy completely discredits everything government stands for.

  15. Karma to burn... by Orne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I met a traveler from an antique land
    Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
    Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

    -Percy Bysshe Shelley
    1792-1822

  16. Re: "undercover police" joke by nusratt · · Score: 3, Informative

    "That's the job of undercover police officers trying to make protestors look bad (I joke, I joke, such a thing could never, ever happen, huh?)"

    you mean, like this picture of the undercover agitator who was caught at Bush's inauguration? http://www.civil-rights.net/

  17. Re:Control of Money? by ynohoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Republicans are "conservatives" (in the United States sense - in Europe they would be referred to as "liberals")

    Easy on the crack pipe there buddy - in Europe, Republicans would be defined somewhere between conservative and fascist. Democrats would fall between liberal and conservative. You don't have any socialists since they all fled to Canada a long time ago.