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Second Post-Apple Newton Life?
An anonymous reader with a lot of time on his hands writes "As seen on Slashdot b e f o r e, the Newton refuses to die. Since Apple discontinued it, it got ATA, WiFi, Bluetooth, Zeroconf and even a NES emulator. Now, several Mac news sites r e p o r t, Newton users founded an association with John Sculley, who pushed the Newton at Apple, as its honorary president. They're organizing a conference in Paris in September. How long until all these users switch to new hardware?"
I have a 2000, and i personally love it's form factor, it has a nice large screen. I use it for about everything you would normally use a PDA for.. Calendaring, contacts, etc etc.
I also use it for things such as doing Serial consoles on headless linux servers. The large screen makes the serial term a bit easier to use.
Who needs a color screen anyway, when you have a nice big green one =P not to mention the twin 5v PCMCIA slots for uber-expandability.
Also a good portion of the newton software makers, have long since been giving away their former products, so the software is free as well.
Long Live the Newton!
-Henry
--- #@$DF@#2%@^%3^&*$%FRHG%%[NO CARRIER]
Apple using their iPod popularity to move excitement to a handheld marketed to a younger generation.
I know it sounds confounded but think. They are blowing away the rest of the mp3 player competitors due to their marketing.
Now, I don't think Jobs would even consider something like that, actually he's laugh me out of whatever room I'm in if I mentioned it.
But if they can create such a buzz with the iPod couldn't they ride the buzz with a hip pocket organizer or even a program that syncs with the iPod combining all the third party news grab and weather grab apps into something that the iPod user could use to sync with other information.
Could they translate this underground buzz into something big? I think so.
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
The Newton Community is a very interesting case of users continuing to support a product which for all intents and purposes should have died years ago. Is there a good reason, other than 'I hate everything that Microsoft does no matter what and nobody will ever change my mind', why these users would not be satisified with a shinny new TabletPC or Pocket PC? On the other hand why does Apple continue to shun these users when there is clearly a market for an new Apple handheld computing device? Strange that Apple would not wish to compete with Microsoft by offering their own version of the TabletPC. Perhaps some Newton users could comment on these issues.
I started with a Newton. It was big and sort of clumsy physically, though. So, I went to a PalmOS device. It paled in functionality by comparison, though. So I went to a Windows CE-based device. It was slow and clumsy and just not as metaphorically intutive.
In the end, I ended up with a Newton 2000 again. With other PDAs, I eventually just stop using them. With the Newton 2000, even though I bitch about its size, I find myself using it all the time.
It recognizes my handwriting, as fast as I can write it, the way I write it (without needing a cursor to position the text, without needing to learn a special alphabet, without needing to write all letters over one another or write in a specific area of the screen). It has a unique chronological interface for categorizing and indexing (the index view vs. the content view, plus the "scrollable" nature of the content you create, rather than storing things in "files" or "documents").
Recently a friend gave me a Linux-based Zaurus PDA. It's a great little PDA and it's cool to start the Terminal and type linux commands on the slide-out keyboard.
But there's just nothing like the Newton; it's not a subtle difference at all... the Newton's entire user interface is a radical departure from anything else in computing, and until you've tried it for a week or two, you have no idea just how poorly designed current PDAs are, software-wise.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
I'd be interested to see a hardcore Newton fan actually make a list of what it would take to get him to switch to something new.
Suppose the Oqo ever emerges from vapor as something you could actually buy. Then put a Linux 2.6 kernel on it, and your choice of desktop (KDE or GNOME). In some ways this would be better than a Newton (faster processor, color screen). How would a Newton user like this? What essential Newton features are missing?
I understand that the Newton used a "data soup" more than explicit files. Is GNOME Storage anything like this?
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Another place the NES breaks down is that the NES is ancient, technology wise. The Newton isn't, at least not compared to most of today's PDAs. The Newton has a 162 MHz StrongARM, still quite capable compared to a lot of the Palm OS units and even quite a few of the PocketPC models. You can upgrade that to 220 MHz if you're that kind of person. And as you and the poster mentioned, new hardwares being supported all the time. Yes, the NES has some great games, but the Newton is more than a curiosity with a couple decent apps, at least for the people that use them.
I stopped using my Newton a year ago. It's a shame. I had some good reasons, but what it came down to is that it didn't support one app that I can run on PocketPC or Linux PDAs- Squeak Smalltalk. If it wasn't for that, I'd still be using the Newton right now. Heck, when I got a Linux Zaurus C760 I still used the Newton for "PDA" stuff, especially taking notes, something the Newton still beats Palm OS and Linux by far. PocketPC- with the built-in notes app- gets pretty close, but a tiny 320x240 screen doesn't cut it for me. Linux PDAs have the saddest excuses for notetaking software ever, which had me taking both the Newton and the Zaurus with me for the day.
The Newton 2100, being released in 1997, still does a lot. Before I jumped ship, it was my main computer at home- I IRC'd, email'd, telnet/ssh'd, VNC'd, browsed the web, programmed (in NewtonScript and LittleLisp)- all wirelessly using a standard Orinoco WaveLAN 802.11b card. Worked like a dream. If only we could get an updated Newton... *sigh*
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Dang, was going to use that example myself. It's a good point though - I only started moving away from Amiga in 1998, when I needed to do stuff that wasn't worth the effort making my Amiga (upgraded with a PowerPC processor by this point). I would have bought one of the new AmigaOne systems, if I hadn't stumbled across OS X first.
:) I want to know no-one will steal it, because they can't run while carrying it! Don't suppose anyone knows of where I could get one, do they?
People need to keep in mind, newer does not mean better, especially for certain uses. That P4 might be faster than my Amiga, but how's it's responsiveness while word processing, for example? That Palm might be smaller than a Newton, but if I carry a laptop bag anyway, how much differene does it make.
Diverging wildly from the point, I've always wanted to get a bigger mobile phone. Ideally something as big as they used to be when they first came out, but with modern features. I want to be able to make this phone part of my daily excerise
Since modern PDAs run the same CPU as the Newton, why hasn't someone tried to write a Newton emulator for PocketPC, Zaurus, etc.? That would be the best of both worlds: Newton OS on a faster ARM CPU.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
My company bought me a first generation Newton when they came out and sent me to developer school for them - I prototyped a neat real estate app for them.
Anyway, it (and the MP2000 I use today) are still great PDAs - does everything I need it to do with a lot of thoughtfulness in terms of UI design. Best of all, in the 10 years I have had it, I have never once lost a single piece of data on the system - never restored a backup either!
It was also a blast to write code for.
Yeah, you can get a faster CPU in something newer.
But battery life? Nope. Newton outlasts almost all PocketPCs and newer Palm OS models. Sure, a Palm III running on a couple AAs will still outlast a Newton MP2100, but the Newton will outlast my Clie NX70V or Dell Axim any day of the week.
More portable? That depends on what you mean. Yes, a PalmOne Tungsten E is smaller, but the Newton is more useful. The Newton replaced a laptop for me, which in the end gives you a lot more portability per unit volume than almost anything else.
Wifi and bluetooth- built-in. Well, I suppose you could always use the "built-in" argument. You can get wifi and BT cards for the Newton, though.
And you can play hours of music- though not video so much. I used to use a 2 GB PCMCIA hard drive- same kind as in the iPod- in my Newton with the ATA driver. Worked like a charm. Even synced with iTunes over ethernet. Unless you have a PCMCIA slot, using a PDA as an mp3 player kind of sucks. Unless you want to spend a month's pay on a couple GB CF or SD cards. My Jornada 720 had a PCMCIA slot too, but since I've used those, I've stopped using my PDA as an MP3 player. Too much hassle to put the two albums I can fit on it every morning, which translates into me not doing it. And having the same The Cure and Atmosphere albums on my PDA all the damn time got old.
Who watches videos on their PDA? I suppose, on my Clie NX70V- which has an MPEG4 decoder chip- I tried watching Kill Bill, conveniently downloaded in Clie-ready format. But it blew. Same with on my Sigmarion 3, which has a nicer 5" 800x480 screen. Still blew. Who wants to watch a movie on a tiny screen? Hell, I don't bother watching movies on my iBook screen, let alone a wee PDA screen. Maybe if you were some crazy teevee addict, maybe then it'd be worth it.
Web browsing? I'd been browsing the web on my Newton via ethernet, and then wifi, before it occured to anyone to give a Palm III a big add-on modem cradle to fetch email.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I would switch mine because the touch screen randomly drops out sometimes mid stroke.
Never heard of that. Sounds like a hardware problem. I once saw a Newt with the Squiggles, something that some Newts get as they age... But the touch screen problem you describe certainly isn't some bug endemic to the Newton. I'm sure it was annoying enough to warrant either buying another Newt or switching, tho.
Fit in my pocket. I'm not saying it wasn't big, but I'd slip it into my back pocket. No problem walking around, etc. It beat having to take a laptop around, that's fer darn sure.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
...is what made it a great thing. Okay, that statement's completely obvious, so why did I mention it?
I bought my Newton 2100 just after they were discontinued. I loved it, but couldn't use it at work (factory at the time). My Palm V, and later two Sony Clie's (the second of which I still have and use) just fit in my pocket and did everything I needed them to do. Where they quite as elegant? No friggin way, but they fit into my pocket.
Now were the Newton's OS to be put into a "modern" form factor, I think I'd be sold again. Just thinking about is makes me kind of miss it (although I guess I could say the same for my C=128).
On the other hand, I'm kind of now in the ballpark of believers that the PDA-only market is not going to recover. It's going to be PDA/mobile phone combinations. The current line of such combo's is ugly (hey, I'm a geek but don't have to look like a nerd). My T616 is a good step, but it's missing about everything else that's not built-in to a Palm or Netwon.
--Jim (me)
The eMate is the coolest thing. Ever. But what's wrong with it is that the processor is too slow. And while it's true that there are projects making the newton OS work with wifi, bluetooth, etc., in practice, I can do very little with this stuff. I bought a wifi card that is supposed to be compatible but found out it doesn't work with 802.11b. I'm not sure what it works with, but it's useless to me since my network, like most people's, is 802.11. I got an ethernet card that is supposed to work. There are drivers. But the catch is the ethernet card is only good to use for AppleTalk, and I can't see the device under OS X. I got a Keyspan USB adapter to install programs and it works for five minutes then the computer (not the newton) crashes. This happens whether I use Escale, NewTen, or NewtSync. All of these may be problems stemming from my own impatience; I haven't spent more than a few sleepless nights trying to get this stuff to work. But in answer to your question about why new hardware, two reasons: 1 - faster processing. It would be so great to have this emate run as fast as a new palm. 2 - you don't need to give up your job and family and friends to spend time getting things to connect to modern systems that it really isn't intended to connect to. It's great for hackers but not for the rest of us. Finally, I want to add why I do want a new newton -- the OS is great, but what I really love is the form factor of the emate. The newton handhelds are cool too but as the parent points out, too large. But for someone like me who needs to write a lot and who likes a good keyboard, the eMate is the godfather of portables. It's light. It's plastic, and it takes a beating. Its keyboard has great response but is almost totally silent so you can sit in a lecture room and type notes without bugging your neighbors. It has a handle. Handles rule. Apple should put handles on everything. It has instant on -- no waiting for the damn thing to boot. And it's a chick magnet! Oh please Apple, or anyone, figure out how to put a modern processor in a case like this. I don't even need a color screen (prefer battery life!) or tons of disk space or mp3 player or camera or any of that stuff -- just give me portability, battery life, basic text editor applications, some internet stuff - web browser, minimalistic email program, and a telnet/ssh terminal program.
Last week I picked up a Tapwave Zodiac as a new PDA after having lusted after -some- form of small, useful PDA for years. I have a Newton 2100, but it's simply too large for my usual uses, and I never picked up the memory cards and wifi card to really make it useful around the house. Someday I still intend to do this, however. But what struck me as soon as I got the Zodiac home is how much the basic form factor of it resembled that of the almost ten-year-old Newton design. Two expansion slots at the top, large (comparatively) screen, flipcover for the LCD, and an emphasis on being able to be used in landscape mode.
Aside from a few design flaws the Zodiac has in regards to the stylus location and a flipcover, it feels like a Newton in many respects - other than the OS. PalmOS really feels quite weak compared to what the NewtonOS can do, and I really wish that Palm had learned more from what Apple managed to do so many years ago. Screens now are creeping up on the level of pixel density really required for some good UI design, but the operating systems just aren't keeping up. Now, it's also a shame it's taking Palm six versions to get to multitasking.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
But is it possible yet to make a beowulf cluster of the darn things? Imagine!
Actually...
A long time ago, I wrote a little distributed object API for the Newton. Although, calling it an "API" is a bit grandiose. But I used it for some simple distributed processing, at that time running some simple genetic algorithms.
So yeah, you can make a Beowulf cluster of Newtons.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I will. I'm an emate fan as I noted in an earlier post. Here's what I want:
- Form factor of the original. It's different for the handheld newtons but for the emate this means a usable keyboard that makes very little noise and a handle (and preferably indestructible green plastic around everything).
- An option to get a greyscale screen. Color will be cool but I prefer battery life and it would be great if there was a much cheaper greyscale option.
- A reasonably fast processor -- no need for 300+MHz they're putting in Axims and stuff, just something as fast as what's in last year's Palms.
- Easy internet with wifi, as well as easy sync of key documents. My biggest complaint about my emate is I can't figure out how to turn the stuff I type into documents on my computer that I can edit easily. Or put textfiles from my computer onto my emate. I can do this with any new pda (I can even do it with my ipod).
- Text editor. Something simple like the notepad included is fine, though preferably something with more modern capabilities. A NewtonOS equivalent of BBEdit would ROCK. (Yeah yeah so would emacs, I suppose).
- A terminal emulater that at least does ssh connections.
- A simple web browser.
- An email program.
That's about it. I don't want a camera, mp3 player, or phone, but any of those things could be included as options. You don't need to design something I can hold with my neck -- just stick a headset jack on the machine. Personally I want it to look like the emate. That oqo is pretty cool looking but I bet the keypad is a bitch to type on. If you're just talking about handhelds, I'd ditch the keypad, or maybe just leave a number pad for dialing (assuming it's a cellphone) on one side of it, but otherwise just go for something like the Clie T55 form factor. Keep it simple. There's no need for a keypad nobody will use. If you want a usable keyboard, make a bigger device. Those are just my thoughts, I'm sure others will disagree....At least with the Apple ][ line, Apple eventually released DOS 3.3 and ProDOS for free.
It'd be really nice if they ever released (and open-sourced) the Newton OS... you'd think with brass like Scully behind 'em, they'd be able to get this done. It has no value to Apple any more, so why not?
The only reason I can imagine for them hanging onto the OS is if they plan to release a new version of it (and the hardware), and I can't imagine them doing that after this amount of time out of the market.
Maybe Scully will talk Apple into allowing an offshoot company to produce a new one and see how it sells... should sell much better than before, considering how much of a "movement" is behind then with the iPods already... they've figured out the marketing hooks to use, so why not?
Anyone who's interested in this idea should send either Scully himself, or this new association recommending such. With enough "grassroots" effort, they might be convinced to go with it!
- Preferences: Solaris 10 (servers), Ubuntu (desktops), Solaris 11 (personal servers) -
I've been a technology guy at two companies that, at least for a time, were very serious about building software for PDAs and other handheld devices. These days, all of the momentum has shifted to writing applications for phones.
That said, I've had occasion to use at length every single Palm (including the newest Treos and Clies), Pocket PC, MagicCap device, etc.
To this day, I keep a Newton MP2100 charged and ready to go behind my desk. Why? Meetings. The Newton's larger form factor makes it ideal for taking notes in meetings. Laptops are too distracting and unnatural, and anything with a smaller screen is too awkward. Further, the Newt's handwriting recognition makes note taking a natural task. Try graffiti for a lengthy set of detailed meeting notes, and you'll see what I mean.
It helps that the user community has kept up with change. I use NewtSync to sync the notes I take on my Newton back to OS X. It also nicely copies my calendar, contacts, and to-do lists to my Newton.
I must admit that I've ben eying an OQO, but with each passing day, its fixed specs are starting to seem less and less impressive, and I don't think I could see myself typing away at one during a meeting.
Think about this... the original OS for the iPod was based on work from a company called Pixo, which was founded by...wait for it... a bunch of former Newton Group members. The extensability is there. All that is lacking is the support of the man who single-handedly quashed the spinoff of the Newton Group (nee Newton, Inc.) and told everyone to pack their desks. IIRC, the quarter in which the Newton was killed, there were only two profitable divisions within Apple, and NSG was one of them.
Palm is probably going to win this market and another incompatible me-too product isn't going to be successful. Moreover the basic Palm technology is a 70 dollar Zire and all the other models are just bigger better Zires with a few extra features. Newton would have to compete on all those product axes simultaneously which of course is silly.
While I appreciated the old newtons, the parent is blatantly wrong; Palm, Inc, in 1992, established some serious guidelines regarding what a PDA should and should not be, noting that it is definitely not a desktop replacement. This was formalized in 1996 with the Zen of Palm document. It was very much designed to be a handheld device; in fact, the Palm was a direct response to many of the newton complaints, ie size, input issues, and battery life.
These days, on the Palm platform, it's a little more tricky. As memory and processor speeds increase, feature creep has entered, and so have the sometimes blind movement towards replicating various desktop activites on the PDA, with varying results. However, that does not negate the fact that many of the very good applications still hold the ideals of a PDA for a PDA's sake to heart.
They won't make a new Newton for the same reason why they won't make a new Apple // computer, they want to move on to other things.
They most likely think that the iPod has more priority than making a Newton, so R&D goes towards improving the iPod and not the Newton.
Besides the iPod can easily be turned into a PDA with the right software. Just no handwriting recognition like the Newton has.
What Apple should do is sell the Newton technology or license it to a third party interested in making Newtons. Then sit back and collect the royalties or whatever.
At one time Apple almost considered using a PalmOS device. Remember that is what the Newton would be competing against.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Except, the Newton OS seems to have *some* value to Apple. There is InkWell in OS X, which is Newton handwriting recognition.
People have tried to convince Apple to open source the Newton OS. Apple has claimed that it cannot- be it for copyright/patent, value or personal reasons. Everyone knows Jobs hated the Newton. Some people seem to think he's set a no OSing of NOS policy because of this, though that sounds like a helluva grudge.
You can already get the NewtonOS, at least in the binary sense that you can ProDOS. There are utilities for doing a ROM dump. Feel free to reverse engineer it.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
BTW, I am a writer, and there has never been a real 'writer's' computer, or portable.
First there was the Remington, but that is ancient times.
Then there was the Radio Shack 100, which was a real writer's tool. It even has rudimentary file back up to tape cassettes and the ability to modem your article over a voice phone (iffy).
The eMate is the only close approximation to the writer's computer.
The Dana is not bad, but still not in the same league as the eMate.
As for laptops, IBM had the best keyboard, until the Apple WallStreet came along. Pismo isn't bad either, but these still did not compare to grabbing and typing a quick story on the eMate, with its instant-on and long battery life.
(If I had to have a heavy laptop to write on, at least could someone put a simple inkjet in it, so I could proof my work wherever I happen to be writing?)
If you notice, the OS is what really gets in the way for a writer. They just want it to work NOW, when they pick it up to use it.
If Apple ever gets a clue about us, they will come out with a new version of the simple eMate, - but with a back-lit screen please.
Forget putting a phone in it, or a hard drive, or any of all those other bells and whistles. We just need to write, without the machine getting itself in our way.
The closer you make it to pencil and paper, (or just a keyboard and screen) the more perfect your device will be, IMO.
Regards,
Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com
"Out of my mind. Back in five minutes."
> Also it is frikken huge. Not so big as to be terrible to carry in a sack or briefecase or something, but too big to carry in a pocket.
I think that was a major factor that killed it. I think Jobs rightly saw that the demand would plateau, cheaper PDA's that were more *portable* were on the horizon, and that Apple would lose margin. There was the eMate, but "real" laptops were already hitting the big time. Margin was going to sink through the floor, and Apple doesn't do well with low margins, Dell does (well, Gateway was the 800 lb gorilla of cheap then).
I'm actually using my iPod as an eBook-reader when I'm on vacation. I've got four Douglas Adams eBooks (in ASCII text format) on it as notes (I split them into multiple smaller files, because it has a rather small file size limit), works fine for reading, esp. with the backlight on.
People tend to get confused on why I'm staring on my iPod for multiple hours in a row, though :)
You can use some limited HTML-tags in those notes (esp. links), btw.
Every time the Newt comes up in a /. discussion, many people slam it for its larger-than-palm-sized form factor(s). And I think they have a point, I believe a smaller Newton would have been a market success.
Keep in mind, however, that the lack of a palm-sized Newt was at most a temporary situation. One of the great things about NewtOS and NewtonScript is that they were designed to support a practically unlimited variety of form factors. With some forethought and clever UI design, a single Newton app could run on anything from a watch to a jumbotron sized device - a point *often* made by the Newton developer support group.
In fact, I was in Cupertino only days before the rollout of Newton Inc. as an independent subsidiary of Apple (a move unfortunately aborted by Jobs upon his return). While I was there, I saw physical prototypes of Newton-logo'ed devices the size of watches and legal-sized tablets. I assume these were working prototypes because I saw them on the repair bench.
As an independent developer of vertical market mobile-computing applications, my company was very excited by the potential and possibilities of the Newton platform. When Apple axed it, that was pretty much the end of our enterprise, as no other platform available at the time was as capable for such an affordable price - for some applications, there was no alternative platform at *any* price.
And we were hardly unique. There were scores of small and mid-sized mobile-computing developers that were starting to make a real go of it. Nearly all of them folded up shop within a year or two of Newton inc's demise. Quite frankly, Apple threw away the Newt just when it was starting to catch on with industry. We are only *just now* - years later - starting to see mobile platform solutions that can be deployed as inexpensively and efficiently as was being done with the Newton.
Its a situation very similar to the 'dark age' of voice-rec software we are just now beginning to emerge from following the implosion of Dragon Sytems/L&H et al.
No need to port it. X-Scale is pretty much a StrongArm, which is the 2000/2100's processor.
Wifi's already there, as is Bluetooth. USB would need to be added.
"You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
Weeks on a set of AAAs (Wifi does suck power, but not as much as you'd think), small and portable. I've got the clip-on GPS and a foldable keyboard. Most of the benefits of a laptop, with much better portability and battery life.
Now, if I actually needed a portable webserver or MP3 player, the Newtwon would be it. But for the purposes I use it for, the H330 is right in the sweet spot.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!