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Second Post-Apple Newton Life?
An anonymous reader with a lot of time on his hands writes "As seen on Slashdot b e f o r e, the Newton refuses to die. Since Apple discontinued it, it got ATA, WiFi, Bluetooth, Zeroconf and even a NES emulator. Now, several Mac news sites r e p o r t, Newton users founded an association with John Sculley, who pushed the Newton at Apple, as its honorary president. They're organizing a conference in Paris in September. How long until all these users switch to new hardware?"
I have a 2000, and i personally love it's form factor, it has a nice large screen. I use it for about everything you would normally use a PDA for.. Calendaring, contacts, etc etc.
I also use it for things such as doing Serial consoles on headless linux servers. The large screen makes the serial term a bit easier to use.
Who needs a color screen anyway, when you have a nice big green one =P not to mention the twin 5v PCMCIA slots for uber-expandability.
Also a good portion of the newton software makers, have long since been giving away their former products, so the software is free as well.
Long Live the Newton!
-Henry
--- #@$DF@#2%@^%3^&*$%FRHG%%[NO CARRIER]
Apple using their iPod popularity to move excitement to a handheld marketed to a younger generation.
I know it sounds confounded but think. They are blowing away the rest of the mp3 player competitors due to their marketing.
Now, I don't think Jobs would even consider something like that, actually he's laugh me out of whatever room I'm in if I mentioned it.
But if they can create such a buzz with the iPod couldn't they ride the buzz with a hip pocket organizer or even a program that syncs with the iPod combining all the third party news grab and weather grab apps into something that the iPod user could use to sync with other information.
Could they translate this underground buzz into something big? I think so.
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
The Newton Community is a very interesting case of users continuing to support a product which for all intents and purposes should have died years ago. Is there a good reason, other than 'I hate everything that Microsoft does no matter what and nobody will ever change my mind', why these users would not be satisified with a shinny new TabletPC or Pocket PC? On the other hand why does Apple continue to shun these users when there is clearly a market for an new Apple handheld computing device? Strange that Apple would not wish to compete with Microsoft by offering their own version of the TabletPC. Perhaps some Newton users could comment on these issues.
I started with a Newton. It was big and sort of clumsy physically, though. So, I went to a PalmOS device. It paled in functionality by comparison, though. So I went to a Windows CE-based device. It was slow and clumsy and just not as metaphorically intutive.
In the end, I ended up with a Newton 2000 again. With other PDAs, I eventually just stop using them. With the Newton 2000, even though I bitch about its size, I find myself using it all the time.
It recognizes my handwriting, as fast as I can write it, the way I write it (without needing a cursor to position the text, without needing to learn a special alphabet, without needing to write all letters over one another or write in a specific area of the screen). It has a unique chronological interface for categorizing and indexing (the index view vs. the content view, plus the "scrollable" nature of the content you create, rather than storing things in "files" or "documents").
Recently a friend gave me a Linux-based Zaurus PDA. It's a great little PDA and it's cool to start the Terminal and type linux commands on the slide-out keyboard.
But there's just nothing like the Newton; it's not a subtle difference at all... the Newton's entire user interface is a radical departure from anything else in computing, and until you've tried it for a week or two, you have no idea just how poorly designed current PDAs are, software-wise.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Another place the NES breaks down is that the NES is ancient, technology wise. The Newton isn't, at least not compared to most of today's PDAs. The Newton has a 162 MHz StrongARM, still quite capable compared to a lot of the Palm OS units and even quite a few of the PocketPC models. You can upgrade that to 220 MHz if you're that kind of person. And as you and the poster mentioned, new hardwares being supported all the time. Yes, the NES has some great games, but the Newton is more than a curiosity with a couple decent apps, at least for the people that use them.
I stopped using my Newton a year ago. It's a shame. I had some good reasons, but what it came down to is that it didn't support one app that I can run on PocketPC or Linux PDAs- Squeak Smalltalk. If it wasn't for that, I'd still be using the Newton right now. Heck, when I got a Linux Zaurus C760 I still used the Newton for "PDA" stuff, especially taking notes, something the Newton still beats Palm OS and Linux by far. PocketPC- with the built-in notes app- gets pretty close, but a tiny 320x240 screen doesn't cut it for me. Linux PDAs have the saddest excuses for notetaking software ever, which had me taking both the Newton and the Zaurus with me for the day.
The Newton 2100, being released in 1997, still does a lot. Before I jumped ship, it was my main computer at home- I IRC'd, email'd, telnet/ssh'd, VNC'd, browsed the web, programmed (in NewtonScript and LittleLisp)- all wirelessly using a standard Orinoco WaveLAN 802.11b card. Worked like a dream. If only we could get an updated Newton... *sigh*
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
My company bought me a first generation Newton when they came out and sent me to developer school for them - I prototyped a neat real estate app for them.
Anyway, it (and the MP2000 I use today) are still great PDAs - does everything I need it to do with a lot of thoughtfulness in terms of UI design. Best of all, in the 10 years I have had it, I have never once lost a single piece of data on the system - never restored a backup either!
It was also a blast to write code for.
Yeah, you can get a faster CPU in something newer.
But battery life? Nope. Newton outlasts almost all PocketPCs and newer Palm OS models. Sure, a Palm III running on a couple AAs will still outlast a Newton MP2100, but the Newton will outlast my Clie NX70V or Dell Axim any day of the week.
More portable? That depends on what you mean. Yes, a PalmOne Tungsten E is smaller, but the Newton is more useful. The Newton replaced a laptop for me, which in the end gives you a lot more portability per unit volume than almost anything else.
Wifi and bluetooth- built-in. Well, I suppose you could always use the "built-in" argument. You can get wifi and BT cards for the Newton, though.
And you can play hours of music- though not video so much. I used to use a 2 GB PCMCIA hard drive- same kind as in the iPod- in my Newton with the ATA driver. Worked like a charm. Even synced with iTunes over ethernet. Unless you have a PCMCIA slot, using a PDA as an mp3 player kind of sucks. Unless you want to spend a month's pay on a couple GB CF or SD cards. My Jornada 720 had a PCMCIA slot too, but since I've used those, I've stopped using my PDA as an MP3 player. Too much hassle to put the two albums I can fit on it every morning, which translates into me not doing it. And having the same The Cure and Atmosphere albums on my PDA all the damn time got old.
Who watches videos on their PDA? I suppose, on my Clie NX70V- which has an MPEG4 decoder chip- I tried watching Kill Bill, conveniently downloaded in Clie-ready format. But it blew. Same with on my Sigmarion 3, which has a nicer 5" 800x480 screen. Still blew. Who wants to watch a movie on a tiny screen? Hell, I don't bother watching movies on my iBook screen, let alone a wee PDA screen. Maybe if you were some crazy teevee addict, maybe then it'd be worth it.
Web browsing? I'd been browsing the web on my Newton via ethernet, and then wifi, before it occured to anyone to give a Palm III a big add-on modem cradle to fetch email.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I would switch mine because the touch screen randomly drops out sometimes mid stroke.
Never heard of that. Sounds like a hardware problem. I once saw a Newt with the Squiggles, something that some Newts get as they age... But the touch screen problem you describe certainly isn't some bug endemic to the Newton. I'm sure it was annoying enough to warrant either buying another Newt or switching, tho.
Fit in my pocket. I'm not saying it wasn't big, but I'd slip it into my back pocket. No problem walking around, etc. It beat having to take a laptop around, that's fer darn sure.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
...is what made it a great thing. Okay, that statement's completely obvious, so why did I mention it?
I bought my Newton 2100 just after they were discontinued. I loved it, but couldn't use it at work (factory at the time). My Palm V, and later two Sony Clie's (the second of which I still have and use) just fit in my pocket and did everything I needed them to do. Where they quite as elegant? No friggin way, but they fit into my pocket.
Now were the Newton's OS to be put into a "modern" form factor, I think I'd be sold again. Just thinking about is makes me kind of miss it (although I guess I could say the same for my C=128).
On the other hand, I'm kind of now in the ballpark of believers that the PDA-only market is not going to recover. It's going to be PDA/mobile phone combinations. The current line of such combo's is ugly (hey, I'm a geek but don't have to look like a nerd). My T616 is a good step, but it's missing about everything else that's not built-in to a Palm or Netwon.
--Jim (me)
The eMate is the coolest thing. Ever. But what's wrong with it is that the processor is too slow. And while it's true that there are projects making the newton OS work with wifi, bluetooth, etc., in practice, I can do very little with this stuff. I bought a wifi card that is supposed to be compatible but found out it doesn't work with 802.11b. I'm not sure what it works with, but it's useless to me since my network, like most people's, is 802.11. I got an ethernet card that is supposed to work. There are drivers. But the catch is the ethernet card is only good to use for AppleTalk, and I can't see the device under OS X. I got a Keyspan USB adapter to install programs and it works for five minutes then the computer (not the newton) crashes. This happens whether I use Escale, NewTen, or NewtSync. All of these may be problems stemming from my own impatience; I haven't spent more than a few sleepless nights trying to get this stuff to work. But in answer to your question about why new hardware, two reasons: 1 - faster processing. It would be so great to have this emate run as fast as a new palm. 2 - you don't need to give up your job and family and friends to spend time getting things to connect to modern systems that it really isn't intended to connect to. It's great for hackers but not for the rest of us. Finally, I want to add why I do want a new newton -- the OS is great, but what I really love is the form factor of the emate. The newton handhelds are cool too but as the parent points out, too large. But for someone like me who needs to write a lot and who likes a good keyboard, the eMate is the godfather of portables. It's light. It's plastic, and it takes a beating. Its keyboard has great response but is almost totally silent so you can sit in a lecture room and type notes without bugging your neighbors. It has a handle. Handles rule. Apple should put handles on everything. It has instant on -- no waiting for the damn thing to boot. And it's a chick magnet! Oh please Apple, or anyone, figure out how to put a modern processor in a case like this. I don't even need a color screen (prefer battery life!) or tons of disk space or mp3 player or camera or any of that stuff -- just give me portability, battery life, basic text editor applications, some internet stuff - web browser, minimalistic email program, and a telnet/ssh terminal program.
I will. I'm an emate fan as I noted in an earlier post. Here's what I want:
- Form factor of the original. It's different for the handheld newtons but for the emate this means a usable keyboard that makes very little noise and a handle (and preferably indestructible green plastic around everything).
- An option to get a greyscale screen. Color will be cool but I prefer battery life and it would be great if there was a much cheaper greyscale option.
- A reasonably fast processor -- no need for 300+MHz they're putting in Axims and stuff, just something as fast as what's in last year's Palms.
- Easy internet with wifi, as well as easy sync of key documents. My biggest complaint about my emate is I can't figure out how to turn the stuff I type into documents on my computer that I can edit easily. Or put textfiles from my computer onto my emate. I can do this with any new pda (I can even do it with my ipod).
- Text editor. Something simple like the notepad included is fine, though preferably something with more modern capabilities. A NewtonOS equivalent of BBEdit would ROCK. (Yeah yeah so would emacs, I suppose).
- A terminal emulater that at least does ssh connections.
- A simple web browser.
- An email program.
That's about it. I don't want a camera, mp3 player, or phone, but any of those things could be included as options. You don't need to design something I can hold with my neck -- just stick a headset jack on the machine. Personally I want it to look like the emate. That oqo is pretty cool looking but I bet the keypad is a bitch to type on. If you're just talking about handhelds, I'd ditch the keypad, or maybe just leave a number pad for dialing (assuming it's a cellphone) on one side of it, but otherwise just go for something like the Clie T55 form factor. Keep it simple. There's no need for a keypad nobody will use. If you want a usable keyboard, make a bigger device. Those are just my thoughts, I'm sure others will disagree....At least with the Apple ][ line, Apple eventually released DOS 3.3 and ProDOS for free.
It'd be really nice if they ever released (and open-sourced) the Newton OS... you'd think with brass like Scully behind 'em, they'd be able to get this done. It has no value to Apple any more, so why not?
The only reason I can imagine for them hanging onto the OS is if they plan to release a new version of it (and the hardware), and I can't imagine them doing that after this amount of time out of the market.
Maybe Scully will talk Apple into allowing an offshoot company to produce a new one and see how it sells... should sell much better than before, considering how much of a "movement" is behind then with the iPods already... they've figured out the marketing hooks to use, so why not?
Anyone who's interested in this idea should send either Scully himself, or this new association recommending such. With enough "grassroots" effort, they might be convinced to go with it!
- Preferences: Solaris 10 (servers), Ubuntu (desktops), Solaris 11 (personal servers) -
I've been a technology guy at two companies that, at least for a time, were very serious about building software for PDAs and other handheld devices. These days, all of the momentum has shifted to writing applications for phones.
That said, I've had occasion to use at length every single Palm (including the newest Treos and Clies), Pocket PC, MagicCap device, etc.
To this day, I keep a Newton MP2100 charged and ready to go behind my desk. Why? Meetings. The Newton's larger form factor makes it ideal for taking notes in meetings. Laptops are too distracting and unnatural, and anything with a smaller screen is too awkward. Further, the Newt's handwriting recognition makes note taking a natural task. Try graffiti for a lengthy set of detailed meeting notes, and you'll see what I mean.
It helps that the user community has kept up with change. I use NewtSync to sync the notes I take on my Newton back to OS X. It also nicely copies my calendar, contacts, and to-do lists to my Newton.
I must admit that I've ben eying an OQO, but with each passing day, its fixed specs are starting to seem less and less impressive, and I don't think I could see myself typing away at one during a meeting.
Think about this... the original OS for the iPod was based on work from a company called Pixo, which was founded by...wait for it... a bunch of former Newton Group members. The extensability is there. All that is lacking is the support of the man who single-handedly quashed the spinoff of the Newton Group (nee Newton, Inc.) and told everyone to pack their desks. IIRC, the quarter in which the Newton was killed, there were only two profitable divisions within Apple, and NSG was one of them.
Except, the Newton OS seems to have *some* value to Apple. There is InkWell in OS X, which is Newton handwriting recognition.
People have tried to convince Apple to open source the Newton OS. Apple has claimed that it cannot- be it for copyright/patent, value or personal reasons. Everyone knows Jobs hated the Newton. Some people seem to think he's set a no OSing of NOS policy because of this, though that sounds like a helluva grudge.
You can already get the NewtonOS, at least in the binary sense that you can ProDOS. There are utilities for doing a ROM dump. Feel free to reverse engineer it.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
> Also it is frikken huge. Not so big as to be terrible to carry in a sack or briefecase or something, but too big to carry in a pocket.
I think that was a major factor that killed it. I think Jobs rightly saw that the demand would plateau, cheaper PDA's that were more *portable* were on the horizon, and that Apple would lose margin. There was the eMate, but "real" laptops were already hitting the big time. Margin was going to sink through the floor, and Apple doesn't do well with low margins, Dell does (well, Gateway was the 800 lb gorilla of cheap then).