Real Responds to Apple's Hacking Claims

ack154 writes "An article on VNUNet gives a sharp response from Real regarding Apple's recent claims of Real using "hacker tactics" to allow music from the Real store to play on the iPod. Real states: 'Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers and Harmony provides all of these to users of the iPod and over 70 other music devices including those from Creative, Rio, iRiver and others.' The article goes on to outline what they say is a 'clear precedent' for what they have done. And in case you were under a rock it all seemed to start here earlier this week."

Comments

Compatibility, choice and quality

[thirteenVA]

Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers...

In regards to real player these attributes are best defined as:

Compatibility: Real files only play in real player

Choice: Choose between real player basic (spyware laden) or real player premium (less spyware laden)

Quality: Only the highest quality spyware included in RealPlayer

Re:Compatibility, choice and quality

[Patoski]

Yeah, the spyware problem is so bad that I refuse to connect to any Real stream because I'd have to use RealPlayer. If Real weren't so underhanded about the spyware stuff, I'd be a lot more sympathetic toward their argument. As it is, Apple good, Real bad, even if Real happens to be right.

If you're using a windows box you can get Real Alternative.
Download Here

If you're using Linux there are w32 codec packages floating around for you to install which will allow you to play almost any media format. I'm not sure what is available for Macs since I don't own one.

Also, in this case shouldn't it be Apple bad, Real bad?

Re:Interesting summery...

[Chanc_Gorkon]

And this blurb would be wrong. The iPod and iTunes both still support un DRM'd Music. Ihave over 5 gigs of un DRM'd MP3's on my PowerBook with no issues.

Re:Buisness model RIIIIIIIGHT

[SmallFurryCreature]

It has been widely reported that in fact Apple does not make money on iTunes, it makes its money on the iPod. iTunes is there to boost iPod sales not the other way around.

I thought this had been reported often enough by now.

Too bad they were singing a different tune...

[DmitriA]

5 years ago when they went after StreamBox.

Choice?

[mapinguari]

I figured I'd give Real the opportunity to show me this choice, but Real's website tells me:

Downloads are only available on PCs running Windows 98 and up and with:

Internet Explorer 5.5, or newer

Netscape 7.0, or newer

Re:DMCA

[Ath]

You don't understand the DMCA. You violate the law when you circumvent copyprotection mechanisms. No copyright infringment is required. That's covered by a different law.

Of course, it does not matter because Real is not circumventing copyprotection. In fact, Real is adding the DRM copyprotection to their own AAC files.

Re:Its just the way they said hacker

[gordgekko]

Amazing since the DMCA explicitly permits reverse engineering to ensure interoperability. Try again.

Re:Hacker tactics?

[k98sven]

The DMCA may have a loophole that makes this legal

It's not a "loophole", it's an explicit exception.
European law has a similar provision.

It's there for good reason: To promote competition and not allow DRM to be used for vendor lock-in.
(Current attempts notwithstanding)

What the DMCA does is prohibit circumvention of copyright-protection devices (e.g. "cracking"), unless it's done for interoperability purposes.

However, the EULA might prohibit reverse engineering no matter what. The enforcability of them are questionable, though. The UCITA act passed by some states is thought to make such clauses enforceable.

But I'm a bit sceptical, since a federal court found such a clause to be unenforcable in 1988 despite a Louisiana state law which allowed such clauses. I can't see why Federal law would not pre-empt the UCITA as well.

No

[HBI]

No, they didn't. You have to use their actual Real player to play any Real format. Helix by itself is just a stock media player that doesn't know about Real's proprietary stuff.

It's like Microsoft open sourced Windows but the OSS version will only run OSS applications, not anything Win32. It's Real using the community to develop a media player for OSS platforms.

You might like or dislike that, but as for them opening up their formats, that's BS.

Re:No

[squiggleslash]

Now hold on, because while that's an example of being closed, it's not an example in the same way as Apple's DRM is closed.

What Real said with Helix is that they'll provide binaries to link with Helix for any platform to play the missing media formats. What they'll not do is give you source code. And Real have given away the tools to create Real content for a while now.

By comparison, when Apple was asked to work with Real (in the same way as, say, if I wanted SquigglePlayer to play RealPlayer streams, Real would compile those binaries for me so such a thing is possible), Apple refused point blank.

Both are closed in some sense. However the difference is that Apple's is closed completely. Real's formats, on the other hand, are "open" as in "Open Group" rather than (unfortunately) "Open Source".

Re:Hacker tactics?

[Jeremy Erwin]

Yes, yes. We must uphold the example of Real, and their heroic achievements in the field of reverse engineering. We must blindly ignore the portion of their own license which states

2. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS.
a) You may not: (i) permit other individuals to use the Software except under the terms listed above; (ii) modify, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble (except to the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by law) or create derivative works based upon the Software or Documentation; (iii) copy the Software or Documentation (except for back-up or archival purposes); (iv) rent, lease, transfer, or otherwise transfer rights to the Software or Documentation; (v) remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Software or Documentation; or (vi) use the MP3 encoder in real time broadcasting (terrestrial, satellite, cable or other media) or broadcasting via the internet or other networks, such as, but not limited to, intranets. You also may not use the RealJukebox MP3 encoder in pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications. Any such forbidden use shall immediately terminate your license to the Software. The recording, playback and download features of the Software are intended only for use with public domain or properly licensed content and content creation tools. You may require a patent, copyright, or other license from a third party to create, copy, download, record or save content files for playback by this Software or to serve or distribute such files to be played back by the Software.
b) You agree that you shall only use the Software and Documentation in a manner that complies with all applicable laws in the jurisdictions in which you use the Software and Documentation, including, but not limited to, applicable restrictions concerning copyright and other intellectual property rights.
c) You may only use the Software for your private, non-commercial use. You may not use the Software in any way to provide, or as part of, any commercial service or application. Copies of content files, including, but not limited to songs and other audio recordings, which are downloaded or copied using the Software, and which are protected by the copyright laws or related laws of any jurisdiction, are for your own personal use only and may not be distributed to third parties or performed outside your normal circle of family and social acquaintances.
d) You may not use the Software in an attempt to, or in conjunction with, any device, program or service designed to circumvent technological measures employed to control access to, or the rights in, a content file or other work protected by the copyright laws of any jurisdiction.
e) The Software embodies a serial copying management system required by the laws of the United States. You may not circumvent or attempt to circumvent this system by any means.

Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple

[OmniVector]

wow. what a moron. apple never claimed their OS was open souce. they said the base system, darwin, (made by opendarwin) is what their system is based off of. at least if you're going to lie, tell one that's hard for people to debunk.

yeah. apple's SO closed. that's why they use ppc, an open architecture (unlike x86) openfirmware (an open bios implementation), standard component protocls and connections like pci, pci-x, agp, usb, firewire, ide, sata and more. that's why they've now switched completely to DVI monitors instead of ADP. that's why their filesystem, hfs+, has a fully working read/write implementation in linux.. because you know they CLOSED the format of course! (yeah right) more like they opened the documentation on it. that preferences system they use.. it's also know as xml, not some binary registry file. i'm sorry, but apple's only form of lock-in is that no other major manufacturers make ppc mobos and ppc chips besides apple and ibm on a wide enough scale to get high enough performance for os x.

lockin. yeah right.

There is no "cracking" going on.

[Ayanami Rei]

They are just using the trick playfair (now hymn) used... figure out how to ask the iPod for your user keys, try all of them until one decrypts the priv atom in a m4p file, and decrypt the data stream with the key therein. It's just standard AES (128-bit Rijandel). The trick was figuring out how keys are managed. And lucky for Real, all that groundwork was already done for them. Then they could just pull your user keys from your iPod and encrypt your downloads with those on THEIR music site. Easy peasy.

Re:Hacker tactics?

[milo_Gwalthny]

Settle down, man. Analogies are by nature not perfect. That's why they are analogies not similitudes. Just because he used some of your hobbies in his analogies doesn't make them obtuse.