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Syllable Project's Developer Newsletter #1

Posted by timothy on from the starting-fresh dept.

An anonymous reader writes "The July issue of the Syllable Development Newsletter is available, featuring updates and progress from Syllable, the open source desktop OS, over the past month. Highlights include a new 3DFX driver, major ATerm updates and UI principle discussions. Good progress is being made."

34 comments

  1. 3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    That would have come in really handy, oh, I don't know, like five freaking years ago!

    ~~~

    1. Re:3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You'd be surprised. Still if you're a little more modern you can use the Radeon or maybe GeForceFX driver with your hardware instead..Maybe some other card?

    2. Re:3dfx driver?! by jarito030507 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As Syllable is still under heavy development, most people shouldn't run it on their main machine yet. The 3dfx driver was ported because someone needed it to support some old video card they were using in an extra box. The more drivers the better, why are you complaining?

    3. Re:3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yeah, but bear in mind that Syllable will probably run well on that five year old box. Recent Windows versions won't, nor will desktop Linux distros (unless you're willing to hack it to pieces and run Fluxbox, SIAG Office, Amaya and other low-feature non-integrated apps.)

    4. Re:3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not everybody has such mental issues that they can't hold on to a computer part for more than 2 years without feeling emasculinated. Syllable can work on computers as old as 1993 Pentiums, so only supporting 64mb Radeon cards would be stupid.

    5. Re:3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually Syllable will run pretty well on a computer as lowly as a Pentium 133

    6. Re:3dfx driver?! by sp0rk173 · · Score: 1

      because all of those developers should be developing for linux, helping the domination of the One True OS! Developers spread throughout many projects is inefficient! LONG LIVE THE PENGUIN! DEATH TO CHOICE AND FREEDOM!

      But seriously, he just seems like an ass. And kudos to the syllable team for trudging on. They have a nice little system coming along.

    7. Re:3dfx driver?! by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``The more drivers the better, why are you complaining?''

      Probably because they think there are better uses of one's time than writing a driver for a long obsolete piece of hardware.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    8. Re:3dfx driver?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      long obsolete for what, gaming? You don't need a Radeon 9800Pro to type up notes in a business or for grandma to write email. A 1995 MGA card is just as good for that as a Radeon X800 is. Video cards have a good 10 to 15 year life if you're not putting playing games or doing CAD design into the equasion. I expect to still be using my y2000 DVI video card in 2010.

  2. Stuff for upcoming release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a few screenshots for stuff I'm working on. Updated Windows-like titlebars:

    http://msa.section.me.uk/syllable/win98-update.gif

    Shaped window decorations (should be in 0.5.4, depending on a few technical issues):

    http://msa.section.me.uk/syllable/beish-testing.gi f

    Of course, those are just cosmetic and pale in comparison to the BIG developments in 0.5.4. These include integration of the new Dock panel and file browser:

    http://msa.section.me.uk/syllable/desk053.gif

    along with an updated CD-ROM driver (should work on more machines) and revamped Terminal app. Plus all the usual fixes, improvements and cleanups. I wrote an article on Syllable explaining how well the OS is progressing and what it offers already:

    http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=7900

    BTW, for coders out there, Syllable includes a fully-fledged GNU toolchain along with Emacs, Vim and other goodies. Worth checking out if you fancy coding with a friendly team of developers for an up-and-coming OS.

    1. Re:Stuff for upcoming release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      maybe you could in the next developer newsletter include a list of things help is wanted with? Off hand I can think of PPP, SiS chipset PS2/USB bug, Intel Express video & Matrox Millennium one and Gx50 support, SB16 sound, etc

  3. Questions by Qwavel · · Score: 1


    The website says that the OS is "for the home and small office user".

    Why would those users use this OS instead of Windows or Linux?

    Does it feature hardware (ie. driver) or application compatibility with Windows or Linux?

    1. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows and Linux can't boot up in a few seconds. Windows isn't freeware. Windows isn't secure. Linux isn't usable on the desktop. Windows and Linux take gigabytes of hard drive space. Windows and Linux are both bloated. Windows and Linux both have brutal CPU and RAM requirements. Linux is stuck with X Windows and the brain damages that are KDE & Gnome. Linux isn't a desktop OS by design. Windows is expen$ive. Windows and Linux are high matenance.

      Lots of reasons.

    2. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, they wouldn't use it right NOW, as it's still in heavy development. Note that the website says "will be..." :-)

      Anyway, there are lots of reasons. Syllable is extremely fast and light, for starters; it has sub-10-second boots on modern machines, and doesn't munch up memory like WinXP and GNOME/KDE. Syllable makes fast machines FEEL fast, instead of bloating up to the latest spec (damaging the experience for users of older systems).

      It has a VERY friendly driver model -- just copy a file into a directory and you're sorted. Hardware is detected completely automatically, with no faffing around in control panels and modules.conf etc.

      Application installation is equally simple. For native apps, just extract in /Applications. For ported software, extract and run a single command. No complex directory structures, no messing around with InstallShield and UNINSTALL.EXE (and cleaning out registry cruft), no worrying if foo.so.0.1.3 isn't compatible with bar.so.4.1.8.

      It has a clean and approachable desktop and file browser, and the speed and design make it very pleasant to use.

      So there are some reasons why it has the potential to be a better desktop OS than Windows and Linux, but why not give it a try yourself? :-)

    3. Re:Questions by Vanders · · Score: 1

      Linux is a really, really, poor desktop OS. It just isn't designed to be one. Without serious hacking, involving everyone from Linus and Alan upto Miguel and the KDE developers, Linux will always be poorly designed for the desktop. In over five years of using Linux as my primary system of choice at home, I still find it clunky, rough around the edges, obtuse and anoying. It's only redeeming feature is that it is free, and it annoys me less than Windows.

      I'll be honest with you; our goal is to replace Linux as an Open Source desktop Operating System. Linux is a fine OS but using it as a desktop system is like trying to balance an elephant on a unicycle. It's clumsy, slow and liable to fall over and squash you.

      Now, back to working out why I'm getting "ID X is respawing too fast" errors from Fedora Core 2, yet "startx" works perfectly..

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    4. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'll be something Linux is not, and will never be - an OS designed end to end for the desktop.

    5. Re:Questions by Qwavel · · Score: 1


      Ok. You guys have mentioned some of the problems with Linux + Gnome/KDE.

      But you haven't mentioned one of the biggest problems: support for enough applications and hardware.

      How will your OS deal with this? Obviously it is impossible to start from scratch and create your own, so what application platforms will you support? Java, Mono, Wine, Gnome/Mozilla?

      Tom.

    6. Re:Questions by Vanders · · Score: 1

      Well hardware is fairly easy; we just port from Linux or X or BSD.

      Applications are going to be a problem, although I don't know that it's "impossible" to create your own; KDE managed to write and maintain their own web browser and office suite.

      Will we support Java and .Net in the future? Yes, probably. Will we have a port of Gecko/Firefox? Almost certainly. Will we chicken out and add X support so that we can use Linux applications without any modification? Probably not.

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    7. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I highly doubt we'll chicken out about X and the like - that would defeat the purpose of writing an end-to-end desktop OS

    8. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      people keep wanting to port GTK and QT though. Someone will eventually port them, and should Syllable take off, you can bet there'll be a total mess as most programs will be programmed to them instead of the native toolkit.

    9. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      GTK+ and Qt can be implemented without X - there are native win32 versions of both.

      Qt has licensing issues, but if you ported Gtk+ to your OS then this would give access to stuff like Gaim, MOzilla, AbiWord, etc. (all are portable apps that can be built on GTK+).

    10. Re:Questions by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``Why would those users use this OS instead of Windows or Linux?''

      Syllable is open source (Windows is not) and Syllable is a desktop OS (Linux is not). Syllable's APIs look like BeOS's (which most people hold in high regard), and in addition it offers a degree of compatibility with POSIX. That's attractive for developers - and with developers come apps, and apps are good for users.

      ``Does it feature hardware (ie. driver) or application compatibility with Windows or Linux?''

      AFAIK, no. And the drivers Syllable has have been, I'm sorry to say, pretty horrible. The last few times I've tried to install it it either messed up the display (without which it doesn't work), or crased during boot (IDE driver problem). This was using standard VESA and IDE interfaces - I don't think there's any excuse for it.

      Still, driver support will be sorted out in time, and AtheOS (which Syllable is a fork of) looked very promising and worked pretty well back when it was still developed. I wish the Syllable team good luck, and look forward to trying their next release, and maybe even contribute someday.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    11. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I don't think there's any excuse for it"

      You're right, we have no excuses. We should be ashamed of ourselves. Despite having a very small development team with limited time, we should pay massive attention to your condescending post.

      Stop being a prick. Do you have any idea whatsoever how complicated and messy PC hardware is? Have you written any code? Did you submit a bug report explaining what went wrong, so that the team can give the drivers broader compatibility? Does it not occur to you that an OS at 0.5 with a very small bunch of developers and testers is bound to have bugs? "No excuse" indeed...

      (FWIW, Syllable's drivers have been great on my hardware, running my video, sound and network cards without any configuration or bugs. They're not "horrible", they just don't support the 80 billion different types of hardware yet.)

    12. Re:Questions by Vanders · · Score: 1

      The mess of toolkits on X is one of my major issues with X. Porting GTK+ and Qt without X would create just as big a mess as using X in the first place.

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    13. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather eat dirt than use Syllable if I have to either have GTK / QT installed or run programs that need them. It defeats the entire purpose of Syllable's existance. Many rasberries will go to the first person who ports them.

      Hmm, come to think of it, I literally would rather eat dirt...

    14. Re:Questions by Vanders · · Score: 1

      The last few times I've tried to install it it either messed up the display (without which it doesn't work), or crased during boot (IDE driver problem). This was using standard VESA and IDE interfaces

      The ATAPI driver was crap, but the latest version will hopefully fix all of the problems we've had with it so far.

      If your display was not working I'd suggest that Syllable was not in fact trying to use VESA at all, and either your card was unsupported or the driver did indeed have a bug which caused you problems (Some Millenium I's have a known issue, Riva TNT's do not work etc.). You don't say what video card you have and you don't mention if you reported these bugs to us, so I can't help much more than that.

      I don't think there's any excuse for it.

      Until the entire Syllable development team are being paid to work on Syllable full time and we have access to all possible hardware devices and support from the OEM's we have a perfectly valid excuse: PC hardware sucks, PC hardware is bloody difficult to get working correctly and we don't have the time or resource to fix every bug. Sorry, just the way it is. You're welcome to lend a hand though.

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    15. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B., calling people pricks isn't a good look, even if it is stating the obvious. No need to get upset.

    16. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you'd never HAVE to have GTK/Qt installed to run Syllable -- I agree, that'd defy the point.

      However, personally I'm not against someone porting them, as they'd give the OS a few useful apps in the meantime. If I could run GAIM in Syllable I'd be able to spend more time in the OS working on stuff, so in some ways it'd be useful.

      So IMO GTK/Qt ports shouldn't be part of the base system and native apps are MUCH better, but having these toolkits could boost the software range temporarily until the native apps are finished/coded.

    17. Re:Questions by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your reply.

      The video problem I had was, at the time, a known issue. I believe it's fixed now, but have been unable to test it due to problems with the IDE driver.

      I tried LiveCD3 today (under QEMU, as I don't have a working x86 PC at hand), but it fails to mount the root filesystem and eventually bombs, being unable to spawn a boot-shell. I tried following some instructions from the FAQ, but to no avail. I think there is a problem in the interaction between QEMU and Syllable.

      I seem to have hurt some feelings with my statement that there is "no excuse" for these things not working. I apologize for that. However, I stand by the spirit of my comment: VESA and IDE are both standardized at the hardware level, and as long as you (impersonal) are not trying to do anything tricky, they just work, and aren't too hard to program. That said, PC hardware is indeed crufty to the extreme, and it saddens me that better designed architectures seem to have all but disappeared.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    18. Re:Questions by Vanders · · Score: 1

      I believe there are still issues with the ATA PCI controller emulated by QEMU, so Syllable does not correctly detect the controller. I think the latest CVS versions may fix this, but I don't know.

      As for IDE and VESA..well you're half right. VESA is a simple standard and it really does work perfectly in Syllable. As I said, I suspect you had a video card which Syllable was trying to use one its video drivers for. It probably never had a chance to try to use VESA. So the problems you had are really nothing to do with the VESA support in Syllable. ATA is something I can talk about with some authority, as I wrote the original ATA driver for Syllable and continue to maintain the ATAPI portion of it, and ATA is one big honking sucking black hole of a "standard". There are so many devices with so many bugs and interpretations of the standard (Of which there are 7 versions, by the way) that while it is easy to say "Well if you support the standard it will just work" in practice it will "just break" on 50% of everything you try it with. Getting ATA and ATAPI right is a massive job which requires a lot of tweaking, register level debugging, vague standard interpretation, testing and headaches. At times ATA[PI] is almost enough to make you weep tears of blood..

      Anyway, hopefully we've got most of the big nasty hairy bugs worked out of the majority of the ATA[PI] stuff now so I hope you'll give Syllable 0.5.4 a try when it is released?

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    19. Re:Questions by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Ok, sorry for my short-sightedness on ATA. It's always worked for me, but that was on just 2 systems. I will surely try Syllable 0.5.4; in fact, I am putting together a x86 system just for testing new releases of certain systems, of which Syllable currently the most promising.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    20. Re:Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am putting together a test system for syllable and other systems right now as well :)

      spikeb

  4. free desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm really torn on this one.

    "Linux is a really, really, poor desktop OS"

    I would say that Linux and cousins (KDE, Gnu, X, etc) are really useful kits for building almost any OS (desktop, server, whatever), the quality of which will vary according to the abilities of the distribution-builder. As all of these projects mature, I really expect that the remaining bumps in the Linux desktop experience will get worked out. I personally don't have much trouble with Debian although I am fairly geeky. More to the point, my non-technical wife and my six year old daughter have no trouble using KDE/Debian/Gnu/Linux once I have everything set up. They couldn't do a Debian install on their own, but I wouldn't bet on them installing Windows successfully, either.

    Nevertheless, I am very happy to see the progress of Syllable. I am an ex-BeOS fanatic, and I tried to install AtheOS around the time Be died, but it didn't support my hardware well enough to be usable. I have an extra 10 gigs on a HD on one of my home machines that I could use as long as Syllable can be booted from GRUB and can reside on a logical partion on a second HD.