Nvidia Releases Updated Drivers for FreeBSD

brsmith4 writes "Nvidia has released their latest drivers for the FreeBSD platform. This release addresses a number of issues and has been anticipated for well over a year. You will need at least 4.9-STABLE or any of the 5.x-CURRENT releases to install them. Some of the new features include added support for the latest NVIDIA GPUs including GeForce 6800 Series and improved interaction with -CURRENT's new threading libraries, not to mention the fact that my Dell laptop no longer shuts off the LCD when the driver gets loaded. The driver also provides tighter integration with the linux execution environment, making it very easy to run your favorite linux game titles. You can pick up the driver here. Pay no attention to the date, August 13th, 2003. It was a type-o."

Comments

All else being equal,

[b00m3rang]

This kind of support for open source users is what keeps me coming back to certain hardware manufacturers. The more companies realize this, the better it is for everyone.

Re:All else being equal,

[Brandybuck]

It's too late for me. Tired of waiting for a driver that didn't hang my system, I finally sold my NVidia card and bought an ATI Radeon 9200. The Open Source radeon driver might not be as good as the proprietary nvidia driver, but it's more than enough to meet my needs.

I understand both sides of the free vs proprietary driver debate. But for me it comes down to a driver that I don't have to wait a year for to get a bug fix.

Re:All else being equal,

[ctr2sprt]

That's exactly right. NVIDIA's continuing high-quality support for FreeBSD and Linux has made me an avid supporter of their cards. Let's be honest: they aren't making any money off this. There just aren't enough Linux gamers (and even fewer FreeBSD ones) for it to be worthwhile for them, but they're doing it anyway. That counts for a hell of a lot in my book.

Forgive me for the glorified "me too" post.

Re:All else being equal,

[SillyNickName4me]

I was about to do the same but decided to meddle with the old driver for a last time to see if it could in fact work. It did work for me upto and including FreeBSD 5.1, and I got it to work again on -current by basicly going back to a kernel and pthread setup similar to 5.1, which of course made using -current a bit pointless.. but hey, I got a working workstation with fast opengl, and that is what I needed..

This new fdriver is good news, means I can go back to tracking -current and actually seeing some results of new tech that is in there ;)

Re:All else being equal,

[drinkypoo]

They're just hedging their bets. I doubt it's costing them all that much (in their grand scheme) to support linux and bsd, and if either or both of these operating systems ever take off like the proverbial skyrocket, their support of the community will be well-rewarded.

Re:All else being equal,

[Brandybuck]

The driver broke on me going from 5.1 to 5.2.1. I tried all sorts of things to get it to work, including juggling schedulers and threading libraries, to no avail. Now I've got a card that still has fast openGL, and runs slightly cooler as well.

Re:All else being equal,

[archen]

I wouldn't be so sure that they're not making money off of it. Personally, I bought an nvidia card because of the Linux/BSD support (whee, big deal right?) I also make the purchasing decisions where I work (we build our own machines). I always try to make sure that our machines aren't tied to any OS be it by software OR hardware. Yeah, we use windows now, but if we switch to Linux then I know the nvidia support will (hopefully still) be there. So nvidia is the default choice. That's 50 machines and counting.

In a similar way I was looking for a SATA RAID card for my machine since I couldn't get the on board Promise junk to work. Now what card would I choose? It seems like the best support came from 3ware , and they make pretty good cards too. Now they have a loyal customer and I'll ALWAYS recommend them over the competition.

They might not make the money back on a 1 on 1 customer basis, but I think that they're making quite a bit of it back in mind share of tech people. I'm not significant by myself, but my range of influence between work, my friends, and various people reaches pretty far. At some point marketing glitz can only go so far. Proof of support for your products can make a bigger difference than marketing in some cases.

Re:All else being equal,

[be-fan]

NVIDIA is making money off the Linux drivers. NVIDIA is pretty much the only game in town for Linux graphics workstations, something which quite a few companies are using these days (eg: ILM). Since they have to write Quadro drivers for this market anyway, it's easy for them to support consumer-level NVIDIA cards too.

Re:All else being equal,

[SillyNickName4me]

And I kept some money in my pocket..

Re:All else being equal,

[ShavenGoat]

I don't know how true that is. The high end video cards for scientific computing cost well over $2k, which puts in a large margin for them to profit at least in one small area. In my experiance, not many visualization scientists use Windows for bleeding edge graphics.

In addition, porting a graphics card to more than one platform gives the vendor a chance to find bugs in their design that they might not discover with a single platform release.

Re:All else being equal,

[mi]

A binary-only driver is not "high-quality" support. I want my next machine to be an amd64-based FreeBSD box. XFree86 and X.org compile on the platform, but these NVidia drivers will not work...

Re:All else being equal,

[Krynus]

nVidia is a fairly large company. They most likely don't, and shouldn't spend resources on things that don't make them money. They have responsibilities to their shareholders.

But stop and think about it for a second. The new apple computers are almost exclusively using apple hardware, and the core there is BSD. Medical imaging equipment commonly runs on *nix|bsd systems and requires high end 3D modeling. Render farms commonly run on *nix|bsd. Finally, most research and super computer centers prefer to run on *nix|bsd over windows.

I think there's a larger market for 3D support within open source / *nix|bsd operating systems than most gamers think. Video Games are only a small piece of the market when you're talking about non-windows operating systems.

Type-o?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was a bad type-o, then was it a type-o negative?

Re:Type-o?

[brsmith4]

At least your critique of my spelling was amusing.

Re:Type-o?

[floamy]

PS: Sorry. That was rude.

Re:Type-o?

[Anonymous Coward]

dude lighten up. You'll live longer.

Re:Type-o?

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax, you live long-er.

Re:Type-o?

[Anonymous Coward]

No problem, man. Why should we not try and see the amusement value in things, after all?

It's typo, not type-o

[Anonymous Coward]

Typo is a contraction for "typographical error". Unless there's a joke I'm missing.

what about 5-release or stable when that comes out

[pillohead]

Will this work on 5.2.1 release or will I have to wait til 5 stablizes?

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[brsmith4]

Worked for me. Getting better frame rates on BSD than on linux.

Type-o?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's typo, short for typographical error.

I'm beginning to think that we're turning into a world full of illiterate morons.

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[Anonymous Coward]

Well cough up the numbers then.

Re:I couldn't get these drivers to work

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? What is wrong with it?

If it had the words Linux and FreeBSD switched, it would have been 100% wrong (but probably moderated 5, insightful).

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[endx7]

From the README:

- FreeBSD -STABLE (4.9 or later), or FreeBSD -CURRENT (5.2.1 or later)

* A FreeBSD 4.x/-STABLE kernel configured with:
options SYSVSHM

* A FreeBSD 5.x/-CURRENT kernel configured with:
options SYSVSHM

Troll alert.

[fmaxwell]

Huh? What is wrong with it?

This same troll has been posted every time a *BSD story has been run on Slashdot in recent memory. It's always posted anonymously, never identifies the mysterious "500 person company" that has decided to "convert fully to Open Source software and OSes." There is no indication of what their line of business is, what their servers are used for, what the desktop machines are used for, who the users are, etc. The "conclusion" speaks volumes about the intent: "Having considered the above factors, all of which are vitally important when implementing a new system in a company, we decided to go with Linux (primarily Debian for the reasons mentioned)." Yeah. Right. Another Debian Linux fanboy.

Think about it:

1. There are damned few companies converting everything from desktops to multi-cpu servers to open source all at once. That's inviting trouble.

2. What most companies do is identify applications that support their business and then select an OS based on that. You'll note that nowhere here are any specific apps mentioned. There are comments about "Debian's package repository", but how many businesses are concerned about huge numbers of often obscure *nix apps? Yeah, the secretary will be thrilled with the Debian-supplied copies of awk, yacc, grep, etc.

3. The "unbiased" review went into gobs of detail about speed, but, frankly, most desktop machines are so fast now that the average office worker wouldn't know if you removed half of the RAM and cut the CPU clock speed in half.

4. There was no mention about remote administration capabilities. How many corporate IT guys have no concerns about remote administration?

5. There was no mention of ramp-up time for the (presumably) Windows users or courses available for non-technical staff to learn the UI and apps. Like that's not going to be an issue!

6. Any mention of laptop compatability? Gee, that's suspicious, isn't it? How many businesses have no laptops?

7. There was no discussion of moving data, converting data from the existing format to the new format, etc. What a joke!

The whole piece was written by some Linux fanboy trying to pretend that he's in a corporate IT role. Don't fall for it.

But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[jbn-o]

This kind of support for open source users is what keeps me coming back to certain hardware manufacturers. The more companies realize this, the better it is for everyone.

One can only hope those "certain hardware manufacturers" aren't the ones that treat you like nVidia does. This is not "support", this is an opportunity to acquire a set of chains. Fans of the open source methodology ought to see how accepting proprietary code isn't going to make your system better--you're choosing to toss out the developmental advantages that open source advocates focus on (or instead not recognizing the limitations in ignoring software freedom for users). The free software community wasn't built by catering to software proprietors and it won't be sustained by giving into them.

Re:But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[SillyNickName4me]

> One can only hope those "certain hardware manufacturers" aren't the ones that treat you like nVidia does. This is not "support", this is an opportunity to acquire a set of chains. Fans of the open source methodology ought to see how accepting proprietary code isn't going to make your system better--you're choosing to toss out the developmental advantages that open source advocates focus on (or instead not recognizing the limitations in ignoring software freedom for users). The free software community wasn't built by catering to software proprietors and it won't be sustained by giving into them.

That is all noice, and will appeal to people in the Linux/GPL world. FreeBSD does have a free and open source license, but has a different idea about development model, and don't try to express and pursue a political and social goal with their license.

This is not about the validity of your argument, but about the assumptions it is based on, which do not apply to everyone.

Re:But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[jbn-o]

[...]don't try to express and pursue a political and social goal with their license.

I think this was the most revealing part of your post -- don't dare express yourself politically because we can't handle any of that kind of discussion in here. One wonders then in what sense the user is in any way free with FreeBSD if one is relegated to backing such stifling anti-discussion.

Re:But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[SillyNickName4me]

> I think this was the most revealing part of your post

I think you cannot read.

> -- don't dare express yourself politically because we can't handle any of that kind of discussion in here.

Heh, no, just don't assume that everyone who is involved with writing open source software shares the same ideas that are very popular among GPL proponents.

Specifically, when looking at BSD licensed software, as is the case with FreeBSD (just in case you didn't notice yet, we were discussing FreeBSD, not Linux here), you may actually notice that the people designign and writing it don't care that much about 'the open source methodology' but about making something that is usable to everyone. You make closed source software? fine. Makign a card with closed source drivers? perfect, we don't care.

You make somethign wuith a closed source FreeBSD driver? great, if you want it will get listed as a FreeBSD supporting device.

If you think that pointing out the difference between that way of thinking, and the way of thinkign that is very popular among GPL 'fans' is stiffening the discussion, then well, too bad.

I do think tho that you are a bit oversensitive to statements that might be read as being negative with regards to the GPL, and thereby are doign the exact thing that you accuse me of, stiffenign discussion.

Re:But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[jbn-o]

Heh, no, just don't assume that everyone who is involved with writing open source software shares the same ideas that are very popular among GPL proponents.

I did not do this. I would not do this because the GPL expresses a very different philosophy from the open source movement. I stated something that is true for all free software, including FreeBSD. Whatever motivates FreeBSD developers to continue their work isn't the point; the work they produce is licensed such that everyone (including users) gains software freedom. Therefore I'm grateful that FreeBSD's developers deliver software freedom to all of their users. Therefore I find it ironic that a user would choose to throw away this freedom and add on software which is completely uninspectable, unmodifiable, and possibly can't even be shared (the nVidia software). It seems more reasonable to me to get a different video card from a developer that doesn't treat you this way.

Specifically, when looking at BSD licensed software, as is the case with FreeBSD (just in case you didn't notice yet, we were discussing FreeBSD, not Linux here), you may actually notice that the people designign and writing it don't care that much about 'the open source methodology' but about making something that is usable to everyone. You make closed source software? fine. Makign a card with closed source drivers? perfect, we don't care.

I understand that this is not a discussion of the Linux kernel. I'm looking at this situation in terms of what is being delivered, not why. But if I turn my attention to motivation it seems to me that you don't see the similarity between the motivations you're talking about.

The open source philosophy is a design methodology that aims to make more software available to businesses. For the open source movement, proprietary software is merely less technically efficient or sub-optimal than open source software. But the open source movement doesn't object to proprietary software. This movement can endorse software which doesn't qualify for being called "open source". Hence, delivering a gift of code on which anyone can build any other program (even proprietary programs) is compatible with what the open source movement aims to do. Also, Linus Torvalds' fork of the Linux kernel is developed with comparable motivation; Torvalds licensed the kernel under the GPL but he has made exceptions and given interpretations of the GPL which he believes allow for proprietary derivatives (such as the nVidia software).

Talking about software freedom rankles the open source movement because that movement was designed to get away from freedom talk. Freedom talk tends to make people think of user's rights which, in turn, leads to users distancing themselves from what proprietors offer. One famous software proprietor, Bill Gates, came to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign a few months ago and compared the GPL to the new BSD license along these lines stating how it was appropriate for universities to license under the new BSD license and inappropriate to license under the GPL. Gates was looking out for Microsoft's interests (and thus his own interests) essentially saying that it is a university's job to give Microsoft a gift of code.

I'm not against non-copylefted free software licenses. I think that programs licensed under them are a gift to everyone. Being a gift to everyone, there is a real risk that the developer and the free software community can suffer when a proprietor with superior advertising power makes a proprietary derivative and that derivative becomes accepted. A developer can end up competing against a derivative of their own code and the community can watch a proprietary incompatible modification make their version of the program functionally obsolete.

Re:But freedom isn't equal to being dependant.

[SillyNickName4me]

> I'm not against non-copylefted free software licenses. I think that programs licensed under them are a gift to everyone. Being a gift to everyone, there is a real risk that the developer and the free software community can suffer when a proprietor with superior advertising power makes a proprietary derivative and that derivative becomes accepted. A developer can end up competing against a derivative of their own code and the community can watch a proprietary incompatible modification make their version of the program functionally obsolete.

You see, that is where our difference lies, and where you do not seem to understand what many BSD developers seem to think.

They don't care if someoen does just what you described, and in fact Apple was very welcome to do so (that they made the result available with source is nice but not anything that was demanded in any way)

The simple difference is that for many who use the BSD license, it is a matter of making something to solve an issue for themselves, and simply not caring much for what others do with the result.

That is why while producing open source software, you will not find a strong care about it actually staying open when others do something with it, or for that matter about others taking a bit of it and making a binary only product that integrates nicely with it.

That Linus allowed the nVidia driver was with a specific explanation, and he has been far less willing to allow some other cases. It has to do with what you call a derivative work, and seeing how the nvidia driver doesn't exactly originate on the Linux platform, it is very difficult to consider it a derived work. The part that is a derived work is available under the gpl with source.

Btw, I am not endorsing one model over the other, merely pointing at an often occuring misconception.

Oh and in the BSD world you will also find people who care a lot about Freedom (Theo comes to mind), but you'll find that that freedom explicitly includes binary only derived works and binary only parts. They will often be unwillign to include those as standard part of the distribution, but that is another thing entirely.

I'm not one of the purists

[b00m3rang]

I don't mind running a few closed source binaries in otherwise open systems. As a result, I have a working video driver written by those who designed the hardware. I've personally had better luck with the nVidia cards, I'm just glad they made the effort.

Besides, more people deciding to run open source OSes because they work with a wide range of new video cards /is/ good for the community.

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[Hatta]

The open source drivers would be just as good if they had the specifications. Doesn't it bother you to buy a piece of hardware and they won't even tell you how it works, which effectively means the company gets to tell you what you can and can't do with it? Is that how a good company should treat its customers?

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[0racle]

I have no idea how my car works. I have no idea how they make plastic. i have no idea what processes food goes through before it hits my mouth either. Face it, there is a lot, probably most of the things you deal with every day, that you have no idea about how they work, were made and the like. You trust the people that made them that they know what they're doing and its the same with closed drivers. Hell i can't read C worth damn, so even open drivers are a mystery to me.

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[Breakfast Pants]

" The open source drivers would be just as good if they had the specifications." This is untrue. Granted if the specs were available the open source drivers would be a HELL of a lot better and more importantly could be continued to be updated in the future (whereas with these proprietary drivers you can't put any bets on that) but to say they would be "just as good if they had the specifications" shows a blatant lack of awareness for what goes on in the drivers for modern 3d hardware. Having the cards not have full specifications does not mean that if they did have specs it would be as simple as "pump it these triangles in this format and these textures in that format." When you see new drivers released by nvidia in the past that give 20 - 30% performance boosts on some games, well lets just say the drivers are not as simple as you seem to think.

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[be-fan]

The open source drivers would be just as good if they had the specifications.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The DRI ATI drivers are less than half the speed of their Windows counterparts. The only specifications on those that aren't available is HyperZ, and that could hardly result in a 50% reduction in performance. Also, the DRI drivers aren't good enough to pass any sort of OpenGL conformance suite either. To date, there does not exist an open-source 3D driver that is good as NVIDIA's binary one.

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[phats garage]

Would NVidia's business be just as good if they openned up their drivers? Would they retain every bit of their competitive edge? Apparently the video card market is all about competition and a few months lead can be pretty advantageous.

How beneficial is it to NVidia to give away all the source to their drivers?

Re:I'm not one of the purists

[Ezdaloth]

You can't open up all the specs, they are (at least) partially covered by IP of other companies. NVIDIA pays those companies to use their IP, and therefore can't open up the specs.

Mod parent back up

[Anonymous Coward]

off topic? WTF is wrong with the moderator who did that? the post was answering a direct question. Jesus-fscking-christ, people get stupider every day.

About damn time !

[SILIZIUMM]

An update every 6 months is welcome for sure ! I hope they will sync their release path with the Linux drivers, THAT would be awesome (ie when the Linux driver is avaiable, the FreeBSD one will be (or within days...)).

Re:About damn time !

[brsmith4]

These new drivers rock too. My frame rates are phenominal and my dell laptop finally works. Its been a long wait especially when you're being forced to run linux instead of the OS you really want to run.

Re:About damn time !

[evilviper]

I hope they will sync their release path with the Linux drivers, THAT would be awesome (ie when the Linux driver is avaiable, the FreeBSD one will be (or within days...)).

That would suck.

The second-best thing about the FreeBSD drivers, is that we manage to miss-out on some of the bugs often found in the Linux versions.

In case anyone is wondering, the #1 best thing about the FreeBSD drivers, is that they are something like 90% source, while the Linux drivers are more like 90% binary...

Freedom and power

[jbn-o]

This is not about what you can currently do. This is about putting yourself in a position where independence is possible. If you choose to remain dependant when given enough information to behave otherwise, that's a choice that chiefly affects you (a freedom). But not having the information in the first place adversely affects everyone, even those with the skill and will to help themselves and others (a power). Some of us do read ingredient labels on food and cook from recipes because we care about what we eat. Some of us care about industrial processes that affect our air and water (such as plastic production) and, therefore, fight for an increased say in how we get plastic goods.

Not illiteracy.

[nurb432]

Its just that no one cares, since it really isn't important.

Personally I fall into that category.

Thanks, nVIDIA

[agraupe]

I use linux, not BSD, but I imagine the two are close in some aspects. It took me literally a minute to install nVIDIA drivers on my gentoo box, whereas the "integrated graphics" I had prior to that took the better part of a day searching, patching various things, recompiling kernels, and installing. It is good to see that some hardware companies *do* care about open-source support. And I really don't care that the driver isn't open, as long as it's free (beer).

Re:Thanks, nVIDIA

[Anonymous Coward]

man, i had the exact same problem! had some shitty sis builtin video chipset and i never could get 3d accelarition working. after spending hours searching for kernel patches i gave up. got a gforce mx card and emerge nvidia-kernel and i was going. could not have been simpler

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[sp0rk173]

I'm pretty sure the submitter meant to say 5.x-release instead of 5.x current, since there's only one perpetual release of -current, not many.

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[duffahtolla]

It's "current" according to the nvidia site.. Follow the driver link for details.

===
Release Highlights:

• Add support for the latest NVIDIA GPUs including GeForce 6800 Series
• Supports FreeBSD -STABLE (4.9 or later), or FreeBSD -CURRENT (5.2.1 or later)
• Improved interaction with -CURRENT's new threading libraries.

Re: Update your troll

[Cochonou]

DragonFly BSD has released.

Re:I doubt these new drivers will affect much

[Anonymous Coward]

Good News Everyone!
Fact: There are 307 FreeBSD developers. And there never was a fistfight
Fact: X.org does in fact support all of the BSDs
Fact: Michael Curry doesn't even know what netbsd is
Fact: There are over 35 BSD books
Fact: Gimp has always worked on all BSDs and always will.
Fact: OpenBSD has had the fewest security holes of all OS's
Fact: Truth is not relative

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[brsmith4]

These are all averages over five minute segments, same levels and scenes

Platforms: FreeBSD 5.2.1-CURRENT w/ ports/emulators/linux-base-8 (RedHat 8) vs. Fedora Core 2 w/ vanilla 2.6.7

Card: GeForce2Go 32Mb (Default CPU Clock and Mem Clock, obviously, since nvclock does not support mobile devices)

Quake 3:
Linux: 1024x768@32bit full detail settings 37.45fps
FreeBSD: 1024x768@32bit full detail settings 40.10fps

Endgame (chess screensaver):
Linux: 1024x768@32bit 42.78fps
FreeBSD: 1024x768@32bit 47.50fps

Return to Castle Wolfenstein:
Linux: 1024x768@32bit NVFog, 2xAniso, Full detail 33.40fps
FreeBSD: 1024x768@32bit NVFog, 2xAniso, Full detail 36.40fps

Atunnel Screensaver:
Linux: 1024x768@32bit 47.90fps
FreeBSD: 1024x768@32bit 43.74fps

Glxgears (obligatory):
Linux: 400x400@32bit window 724.20
FreeBSD: 400x400@32bit window 790.00

Its just a theory...

[andreyw]

But I think I know why the (new) FreeBSD drivers are better than the linux ones released some time ago.

Simple - nVidia is trying out something new, and in order to get some testing they choose FreeBSD. If the drivers backfire, there will be less noise from the user-land. They can then always claim -well, its just some problem we encountered on BSD. Think of this as a beta-test. The new linux drivers should be just around the corner :-).

But hey, nVidia has succeeded in making me give FreeBSD a test-drive.

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[brsmith4]

Hey, YMMV. Don't call people liars if you can't prove the truth.

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[kace]

I'm pretty sure the proper interpretation of "4.x/-STABLE" would be "a 4.x release or -STABLE" and similarly for "5.x/-CURRENT" --> "a 5.x release or -CURRENT".

K.C.

crash on exit?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's causing my Dell Inspiron 2650 to hang on exit of X. Is this happening for anyone else?

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[Anonymous Coward]

aye. thanks for backing this up. I was absolutely sure FreeBSD was handling my gaming better.

regards,
the AC.

It's simple.

[ftgow]

Although the "Unix on the Desktop" market segment, as it relates to 3d cards and 3d games is small (but much more cooler) but they are making money, (just bought a 500 dollar 6800 Ultra from BFG, because of the GPU's Support for the Linux operating system I'm so fond of. Regardless, even if I did not make them any money the way NVIDIA is going about business is really smart. First off you have to realize their not all together a 3d card company. They do other things as well, Chipsets, Audio, Networks, etc. All these things work on... Windows NT6 95/98/ME 2000/XP XP_64 2003/2003-64 Etc (but we dont care about that) x86 Linux x86_64 Linux IA64 Linux and FreeBSD They'er optized chipset drivers are provided for the 2 Linux platforms they will usually be used for...x86 and x86_64. With all their products supported accross the board, it is clear that they are a company providing lean and mean technology across nearly the WHOLE computing spectrum. This kind of exposure shows how the company doenst just support all the little counter strike kiddies windows boxes with mid range graphics cards. God I hate valve. Nvidia's a real company providing excellent services for everyone. Screw ATI.

Re:what about 5-release or stable when that comes

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU ARE SUCH A FAGGOT FUCKING LIAR!

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_______|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_

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Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.