HP Linux Laptop Is A Winner

Not a negative choice by sita · 2004-08-27 08:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Could HP+SUSE go the way of Apple+BSD and become an option for those that want friendly non-windows laptop?

People don't buy Macs because they don't want a Windows machine, they buy Macs because they like Macs!

Re:Not a negative choice by nine-times · 2004-08-27 09:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

People don't buy Macs because they don't want a Windows machine, they buy Macs because they like Macs!
Not necessarily. For me, being a Mac user is a somewhat negative choice. I vote with my wallet, and therefore don't want to buy another copy of Windows. The other obvious option is a Linux or BSD type Unix-alike, but they aren't quite as effortless as I'd like, and they don't come with apps (that I've found) that quite measure up to Dreamweaver and Photoshop. A Machintosh, while not really perfect either, satisfies my needs.
My point is, though there are people who are very devoted to Apple, many Mac users are people who understand none of these OS's or architectures are perfect, but Apple just represents the best choice we can find.
Re:Not a negative choice by GreatDrok · 2004-08-27 09:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Nice FUD! What about all the press lately about defective powerbooks that apple refuses to fix? problems with ipods that apple refuses to acknowledge? Apple has just as many problems as Intel-based computers does.

For the record, I've got an IBM Thinkpad 350C that's over 10 years old that *just* stopped working, and I think it's the power cord. I'll take Big Blue and 10 years of productivity over *anything* else, regardless of os or manufacturer, anyday.

I don't see why it is FUD. I stated clearly that it was recent Intel based laptops that were a problem. I recently retired a 10 year old Toshiba that had finally reached the end of its possible uses but it still worked. But if you want something more modern than a P75 you need to look at the current state of play. Granted a laptop from IBM today is going to be better than the Toshiba Satellite Pro 3000 I bought but it is also more expensive and that was more expensive that my iBook. Also, granted there have been some problems with Apple Powerbooks and iBooks but at the end of the day all manufacturers have problems. Also, Apple has fixed the issues although I do agree they have been slow to respond.

It is a fact that my iBook is better made than the Toshiba I had before and it is clearly holding up to daily use better than the Toshiba. It is also a lot cheaper than an IBM. Oh, and OS X is much nicer than Linux on a laptop. That is a fact and I have been a Linux user since 1994 (before that I used SunOS).

So, where's the FUD?

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"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
Re:Not a negative choice by StarTux · 2004-08-27 10:08 · Score: 1, Insightful

Do not know why these get modded at all...Its simply someones personal experience with Apple versuses Toshiba hardware. And I know people who have had problems with their laptops from Apple.l but thats not to say Apple make bad hardware (quite on the contrary, but I have seen people switch back totheir Intel based laptop manufacturer because of it).

StarTux
Re:Not a negative choice by boredMDer · 2004-08-27 10:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

I know there have been problems with the hardware.

My iBook has had the logic board replaced three times, and four days ago Apple replaced it because the board died again.

The boards that would 'sizzle and die'? Those were in G3 iBooks, not in PowerBooks.

Don't even start with the PowerBook 5300. That happened ONCE, in a TEST LAB, a PREPDOCUTION MODEL, with a DEFECTIVE BATTERY. No 'flaming powerbooks' were ever released to the public.

Not the same by dfj225 · 2004-08-27 08:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

Don't get me wrong, I like Linux and I think it is great that you can finally buy a Linux laptop where everything just works, but I still think it trails behind Apple. I can run Photoshop and MS Office on my iBook without any gimmicks or compromises like I would need to run them on a Linux laptop. Also, when I buy new hardware or look for a new program, there is a pretty good chance that there is support of OS X. The chance of finding mainstream items that support Linux is still very slim.

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SIGFAULT

Re:Not the same by LS · 2004-08-27 09:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why is this insightful? Why is this a comparison with OS X??? I think the big deal here is that this is a FREE OS. You are thinking "non-windows". I'm thinking "non-commercial", "non-proprietary". In that case, OS X and Windows are in the same boat. Go use Windows instead of OS X if you want the best hardware support.

LS

--
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Re:Not the same by dfj225 · 2004-08-27 17:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

I know this is supposed to be funny, but I think I should comment anyway. I don't think Linux sucks, it really is a viable alternative to Windows, it is just that I was pointing out that Linux still needs a lot of work to be done. Think about it, if people on /. and other geeks are surprised that this laptop works without any problems then imagine what the normal user's ideas about linux must be? they probably think it is a piece of garbage or that it is only something for servers. In many ways, the average user is not ready for linux (or to put it more accurately linux is not ready for them) a lot of work needs to be done if not only to the code but to the image of linux on the desktop.

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SIGFAULT

Reviewer seems VERY easy to impress by JUSTONEMORELATTE · 2004-08-27 08:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

The author seems extremely happy about how everything just works out of the box

Just how low is the fsking bar when a reviewer has to note that nothing was broken when he first powered on the system?
C'mon people, raise your standards for a "good" system!
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I always wanted an iPod how about you?

Re:Reviewer seems VERY easy to impress by Querty · 2004-08-27 11:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Really, I have yet to see more than 50% of windows machines (desktop/laptop) work 100% out of the box. You must be one lucky guy...

Re:I am surprised.... by Trigun · 2004-08-27 09:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Not really. Getting hibernate to work on a laptop, as well as any exotic functions requires quite a bit of work/digging. The vendors have the resources and knowhow to create the software for it, since they built the hardware.

Servers I'll install myself, Desktops I'll install myself. I control the hardware that goes into them. Laptops however, I don't have so much control.

Huh? by idiot900 · 2004-08-27 09:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

First, props to MSNBC for continuing to dispel the idea that they are an MS shill.

Second, here's a quote from the article:

For instance, software installs aren't as easy to figure out as on a Windows or Mac computer. You must figure out on your own things like where to store the software and associated programs and how to handle permissions. These are not things most consumers want to do. Installs should be easy to find when completed. That's not always the case for new Linux users.

What is the writer referring to? RPMs know where to install themselves, and what permissions to set. And does SuSE not have a menu system a la the Debian menu, which inserts itself in the various desktop environments?

Interesting Pricing by sublimusasterisk · 2004-08-27 09:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

I headed over to HP to price this thing how I'd like it. The select box for the OS allows me to pick the Suse option, but only subtracts $50 USD. After some research, that's actually about right. So, where's the big money savings by going to linux?

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True believers seek redemption from the sin of death.

MOD PARENT UP! by still_sick · 2004-08-27 09:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yeah, it's Linux so in Slashdot's eyes they instantly get 10 cool points, but come on.

Stuff not working out of the box is noteworthy in a bad way. Everything working the way that it's supposed to is just what's supposed to happen.

Yeah, I know for a long time it was a criticism of Linux that driver support sucked - so in a way I can understand why he'd mention it. But the fact that everything is supported on the laptop is not a good (TM) thing. It's merely the absence of a bad thing.

It's like saying that a new Windows Laptop was the best ever because it didn't explode when powered up, and didn't cause severe burns to the user's lap. Yeah, great that that's true, but it's not something to go around advertising - that would just show that you expected otherwise.

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...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! by _Sprocket_ · 2004-08-27 10:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

Stuff not working out of the box is noteworthy in a bad way. Everything working the way that it's supposed to is just what's supposed to happen.

I agree to a point. When FooCorp sells a laptop running Linux, one should expect it all to work. And there are smaller outfits that do just that - Linux laptops, fully functional (the author notes this but fails to stress the "everything works" angle at that point).

But the reality of laptop hardware is that it is often a very hostile environment to the end user wishing to install their own OS. And since Linux is not commonly offered, most user experiences with Linux and laptops is a trial of compromises, hacks, and quasi-functionality. Linux users have become used to asking about compatibility when looking at laptop purchases.

Incidently, Windows faces the same problems. My last discount laptop came with WinME and an option to upgrade to WinXP. I wasn't interested in either option but I had a spare copy of Win2K. Installing this on my laptop was as much a trial as installing Mandrake (both generally worked - but it required considerable effort to get both supporting all my laptop features).

Now, I would have had an easier time installing WinXP. After all, the manufactorer offered it as an option and offers all the appropriate drivers, etc. And that's the real point of this article.

Want Linux running well on a laptop? But one that's compatible. HP has provided one. Out of the box.

huhuhu... by Azureflare · 2004-08-27 09:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

Isn't this the classic chicken before the egg problem?

Will widespread acceptance of linux occur only when dominant software makers support linux, or will widespread acceptance of linux cause dominant software makers to support linux?

Which will come first?

It's my opinion that widespread usage will occur first. Then software giants will realize the demand, and they will start supporting it.

Linux deserves respect and support from vendors, and I believe it will get it soon.

Re:I am surprised.... by Otter · 2004-08-27 09:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I am amazingly surprised that an HP Linux laptop would become a sleeper hit like this. I mean, I thought it wasn't going to get much press and that it would only be purchased by people who really want pre-installed Linux.

Ummm, maybe I'm missing something but where did the article say anything about sales numbers?

Anyhoo, as long as I'm posting, I was puzzling over:

For instance, software installs aren't as easy to figure out as on a Windows or Mac computer. You must figure out on your own things like where to store the software and associated programs and how to handle permissions. These are not things most consumers want to do. Installs should be easy to find when completed. That's not always the case for new Linux users.

I'll take him at his word that something about software installation was difficult to figure out, but I'm not sure what he means. The last part probably refers to menu entries being added seemingly at random to a crazily crowded KDE menu, probably. (That certainly sounds like Mandrake.) But deciding where to store software, and handle permissions? Was he installing things from source tarballs?

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What I'm listening to now on Pandora...

Dell Inspiron 1100 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-27 09:17 · Score: 1, Insightful

My Dell has been working flawlessly over the last 18 months. $800 brand new from Dell. It runs 24 hours a day and no problems at all. The only thing that sucks is that it runs slow due to using shared video memory, but I have a workstation for stuff where speed is key.

My last notebook was a hand-me-down Toshiba Satellite 2000CDS. It was only 233Mhz with a 6gig drive, but was still working flawlessly after several years of travel and (ab)use.

I've heard a lot more complaints about defective iBooks and Apple refusing to recall known defective parts. I think I'll stick with Dell next time I'm in the market.

Re:First Post by Trelane · 2004-08-27 09:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

Software Suspend 2 should work, since it doesn't involve the brain-damaged Windows-Only hardware. For instance, I've been using kernel 2.6.7 + software-suspend2 2.0.100 on my Dell Inspiron 8600 to suspend-to-disk for a while now. While it's not 100% yet, it's mostly there (I can generally get a good number of suspend-resume cycles before it stops).

Look for it soon in a kernel near you. :)

FWIW, if you really want Linux to work on your hardware, you need to be pestering your hardware vendors. "Gee, I'd love to upgrade, but, you see, you don't support Linux...." Bring up the specific issues if you're familiar with them. Sure, your one voice may not change much in a large company, but if many voices speak up, they will be heard. Same reason I vote in an election.

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Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.

I hope families don't buy this stuff by IronChefMorimoto · 2004-08-27 09:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

No offense to the /. crowd and Linux fans, but I really hope families don't get bilked into buying Linux laptops or desktops without knowing what they might be getting into.

I personally think this ia a great step toward making Linux much more mainstream than it is now, but I fear that unsuspecting and uneducated consumers being led around by unhelpful and undertrained sales staff at Circuit City or on the HP sales line might find themselves with Linux machines they really don't like.

I could see a family making a computer purchase and visiting some retailers that, perhaps, start selling things like Linux laptops and Linux desktops as a novelty item. They get in the store and are like, "WOW! This PC is so much cheaper than that PC over there." They might even think, in their minds, that bad viruses and things come from Windows, so they're even more enthused about the Linux machine.

They get it home, and then they realize that they have to jump through hoops to play this game or open this document from work.

Granted, the process I outlined above has to occur to some degree in order to facilitate adoption of Linux as a mainstream PC operating system (or whatever you might call it). I just hope and pray that vendors like HP and major retailers don't jump on the bandwagon a little too eagerly in trying to sell these machines only to find that they've opened a Pandora's box worse than a MyDoom worm on Windows XP... ...instead... ...a really pissed off family that can't run little Sally's Barbie Dream Makeover software.

A family that ends up returning the Linux machine altogether rather than having the Windows machine with a virus serviced at Best Buy and put back into the wild.

My 2 cents.

IronChefMorimoto

Re:I hope families don't buy this stuff by rusty0101 · 2004-08-27 10:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

Actually, my own hope is that the home market for Linux is recognized as large enough to support game developers writing their games for Linux as a primary distribution route, and advising Windows users to use a bare bones Linux install to run their game under, to provide an online gaming platform that is less likely to be compromised by Windows viruses while playing online.

Do I see this as being likely to happen? No. But I think it would be a better route.

-Rusty

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You never know...
Re:I hope families don't buy this stuff by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-27 10:32 · Score: 1, Insightful

Since when do you play powerful games on a laptop?
Re:I hope families don't buy this stuff by natrius · 2004-08-27 10:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hope families don't buy Macs then. Except for being cheaper than Windows computers, they fit right into your example.

They get it home, and then they realize that they have to jump through hoops to play this game or open this document from work.

If anything , they'd be surprised than they can open their work documents without having to install any extra software, as most Linux distros come with an office suite, unlike Windows. I'm sure that most people know that if they bought a Mac some of their old programs might not work. Why wouldn't they consider this with Linux? I never thought I'd ever say this, but I think you underestimate the knowledge of the general population.
Re:I hope families don't buy this stuff by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-27 10:36 · Score: 1, Insightful

People always bring up the "game" thing with Windows/Linux. I'm amazed how many people own a computer just for games. But this is a business laptop. Not a game machine. And there are plenty of us who use a computer for other things than games.

Re:First Post by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-27 09:24 · Score: 1, Insightful

Bug your software vendors as well. This is now the second major vendor that had InterVideo's windvd working (IBM ThinkPads pre-installed with Linux were the first); but they still don't sell to non-OEMs. As the parent mentioned - one email to support@intervideo.com won't get them to support it for anyone other than IBM and HP; but if as many people ask for Linux as ask for Windows-ME or Win95, they might.

I *do* take exception: by H_Fisher · 2004-08-27 09:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

Talk about damning something with faint praise. From TFA:

But overall, (and here's where staunch Linux fans will take exception) this machine is not as easy to use for most computer users as the same machine running Windows XP or (if it could) Apple's OS X. You still need to know a lot more about the inner workings of a computer to excel on a Linux machine.

Maybe I'm missing the boat, but I think this is a given. I've never heard a Linux user claim that someone who's only familiar w/ Mac or Windows is going to fully understand (much less fall in love with) Linux the first time they use it. That kind of negativity - however slight and between-the-lines - is just pushing more people away from Linux by reinforcing the "theirs is harder to use than ours" idea.

You must figure out on your own things like where to store the software and associated programs and how to handle permissions. These are not things most consumers want to do.

...and because of this we have x million Windows machines running with little or no protection, instant worm-fodder.

Linux to me is professional-grade software - the difference between the Huffy bike you'd get when you're 10 and the 18-speed alloy frame bike you buy when you start racing. It won't always be that way; there are thousands of people out there pushing to make Linux more accessible to Mr. & Ms. Average Joe, but right now it's counterproductive to act like your average AOLer should be able to sit down with KDE and instantly feel at home.

Re:I *do* take exception: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-27 10:57 · Score: 1, Insightful

It will be a long, long time before Linux lives down the hard to use thing just like Windows can't shake the blue screen of death even though you'd be hard pressed to see it anymore.
Re:I *do* take exception: by Blakey+Rat · 2004-08-27 11:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

1) Linux *is* hard-to-use. I might be spoiled by owning a Mac, but the poor quality of open-source GUIs consistantly amazes me. Just the other day I tried some MP3 sharing software that blew me away with crappiness.

2) Windows has already shaken the blue screen of death everywhere except Slashdot. Then again, people on Slashdot frequently complain about Microsoft Bob a product that existed for a few months in 1995 and was soon cancelled.

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Comment of the year

No they won't by swordboy · 2004-08-27 09:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

They have to make it "sound like a winner" in order to get credibility. If you read on, you'll see that they don't recommend the PC for anyone who isn't a Linux expert because You still need to know a lot more about the inner workings of a computer to excel on a Linux machine.

So, basically, they said that its great but they don't suggest that 99 percent of the Joe Users out there buy the thing. Safe.

But the article does have points. When the hell are we going to see some standards in Linux to sort this out? Here's my list of needs/wants:

1) Standard control panel through EVERY distro & desktop environment. Gnome and KDE need to learn how to play nice. Obviously, this will involve some work at lower levels by others. We need everyone to create some STANDARDS here.

2) An installer. n00b's don't know what the hell a freakin' tar.gz file is and once they do figure it out, they don't know to where they should extract it. If Linux had a standardized software installer (complete with a dedicated file extension that could be "picked up" from a browser click), we'd see a huge Linux section on download.com. Yes - I realize that there are some nice things out there but we need a STANDARD to which every desktop distro can adhere (or else they don't get that fluffy "Desktop Linux Compliant" sticker that the industry also needs to invent).

3) Rules for software companies. Right now, there's no problems with this as there are with Windows because Linux hasn't become mainstream. What am I talking about? Software installs run amok. I hate to see Windows programs putting shortcuts *everywhere* - quick launch, desktop, taskbar, programs menu (and sometimes right even off of the top of the start menu). Some of them even install their own "tool bars". WTF? If Linux doesn't fix this NOW, before it becomes desktop mainstream, we're gonna have to live with it forever. We don't need uninstall icons right off of the program menu if there's another way to do it in the control panel. FORCE companies to put software installs in ONE LOCATION. Put it off of root? Sure, why not? Nobody's stopping me.

Forever.

Hell... its Friday so I'm gonna go now. I really wish there were a place to submit all these suggestions that I've got.

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Life is the leading cause of death in America.

Re:No they won't by Kenshin · 2004-08-27 11:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Standards stifling innovation?

Imagine if other industries simply laughed at the idea of standards...

"I'm sorry, but this DVD is incompatible with your Sony DVD player."

Anarchy never got anyone anywhere.

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Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Re:No they won't by PastaLover · 2004-08-28 00:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sadly, the grandparent is right in this aspect. What you wrote applies to GPL programs shipped with the distro only. Commercial software (Acrobat Reader, Mathematica) installs into /usr/local/$somedir and that's it. The most you can expect is some links created in /usr/local/bin. I'd like to see a Mathematic .rpm package conforming to FHS, but that's just a dream.

Some people conform to it, others don't. The point being that there is a standard on this stuff. That some people aren't keeping to it is their customers' problem, not those who developed this standard. What's important is that these noncompliant packages at least don't easily break the system like all those windows legacy apps do.

In any case we're going to see a lot more discussion in the future between the people that say "you should be able to configure everything with graphical apps". And those (and I'm leaning towards it) who say "learn to use a damn text editor (really when you've edited a couple of config files you quickly get the hang of it). In any case, standardizing at such a high level als the end user interface requires throwing out a whole lot of perfectly good alternatives and I don't think people would stand for it.

In essence what the OP is saying doesn't really apply. I don't think it is exactly important that there is one "configuration panel to end them all" or something like that. That is still thinking coming from a very limited, windows-centric world. What is important is that if you should want to use graphical configuration apps in whatever is your desktop environment, they should work for your particular situation in your particular distro. I don't think the average user will keep switching from gnome to kde or something and actually notice that. Not if we're just talking about system configuration.

What's he gonna say? by dameron · 2004-08-27 09:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Usually I download DeCSS from one of the available offshore repositories. Yeah, I know it's illegal, but who reads MSNBC anyway?"

-dameron

Re:First Post by AKAImBatman · 2004-08-27 09:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

Touchy, aren't we? FYI, Mac laptops hibernate better than ANY other model of laptop in existence. Close the lid, and you'll see the pulsing light in ~2.5 seconds. Open the lid and the screen will come on in about 3 seconds. Because of this, most Mac users don't even know that there's a "shutdown" option in the menu.

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade

Re:Downside by TaintedPastry · 2004-08-27 10:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

The false appeal here is that they would be diving into a Linux laptop without knowledge of linux, bash, using source code etc. While much of that knowledge is not necessary for business applications, I think eery Linux user shoud have some scripting capabilities to make full use of their OS.

Which, if true, will need to change for Linux to severely cut into the 94% market share that Windows has.

Besides, few end-users ACTUALLY make full use of their operating system - a point missed by most of the tech community. Because they are our livelyhood, they're also are lives (most of the time.) For everyone else, it's just a computer. Many facets of the Linux/Windows/Whatever battle don't even apply to the people the results will affect: Mom, Dad, Jimmy Five year old, Missy High School Report - none of these people will, or should for the matter, need to know how to use WSH, PERL to use their computer as they want.

Diversity, OpenSource, and Choice are great...but the tech community is taking itself far too seriously in this matter.

Re:I dunno if Apple is the best comparison by valkraider · 2004-08-27 10:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

But don't you have to buy all those same things with other companies as well? How is Apple any different? We bought my sister a HP laptop about 3 months ago (her school provides support for their teachers and they won't support anything but Windows). We paid $1400 for the laptop, $200 for the extended warranty (it came with 90 days), it only came with 256 RAM so I upgraded it to 1GB, and we paid $100 for a basic laptop satchel. All in all it was about $1800 total cost.

Apple actually STARTED with virtually ALL of the PC market share (Apple II years), and has been losing market share every year since then. We don't need to rehash the market share vs. installed base and related arguments. Apple does not cater to yuppie techno elite, however they *are* more popular with artist types. But I am a software developer who switched when Apple OSX hit the market because it is the nicest *nix I have ever used. And I'll tell you what - I have had many many fewer issues with the 5 Macs in my home than with the PCS that I had prior. I was constantly tinkering and fixing with my Windows/Linux PCs. I decided - I do that all day - I want to have computers that are nice to use when I come home. And now I do, thanks to my Macs and OSX.

But the claim was that Apple only sells > $3000 computers. That is false.

Re:I am surprised.... by tirnacopu · 2004-08-27 11:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

Think J2SDK (god forbid you would want two versions of this beast simultaneously), think Netscape vs. Firefox and try to install some darned plugin/extension so that it'll work in both and for all users, and also remember that if an extension refuses to install with a cryptic error maybe you didn't hit the exact 0.x.y version or maybe you were supposed to do it as root, restart browser two times and only after that it might work (Enigmail), think about some poor shmuck that goes to yahoo.com wanting to install the messenger thingie and after clicking on the download link expecting some installer to ask for permission is greeted with a message that states "What do you want to do with this x-audio-realplayer file?"...

Re:Why not just buy a mac ? :) by mrchaotica · 2004-08-27 11:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Where did he mention Powerbooks? Either compare it to an iBook (from $1099), or admit to your FUD!

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"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

Re:hibernate by Blakey+Rat · 2004-08-27 11:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

God forbid somebody make a post like that without the obligatory "works for me!" reply that utterly misses the point.

"Hibernate works for me! All I had to do is upgrade the kernel, change a line in my etc/apt/sources.list, assign a 'sudo' command with a session manager, set up 'sleepd' to hibernate when the battery drops and there are a couple glitches that mean I have to restart my window session, but hibernate works great! It was SO EASY!"

Feh, Linux users.

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Comment of the year

low expectations by kenlars99 · 2004-08-27 12:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Perhaps a quote from Chris Rock is in order:

Niggers always want credit for some shit they're supposed to do. They'll brag about stuff a normal man just does. They'll say something like, "Yeah, well I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb motherfucker. "I ain't never been to jail." Whaddya want? A cookie? You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having motherfucker!

Re:First Post by AstroDrabb · 2004-08-27 13:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

ps. I've also got the modem working... say if you want the notes on how to do this.

Why don't you post how you got the modem working on LinModems.org so that other users can get the same modem working? This is how the Linux community works : )

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison

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