Miguel de Icaza Debates Avalon with an Avalon Designer

Karma Sucks writes "In an interesting debate with a Microsoft employee, Miguel points out some crucial flaws in Microsoft's Avalon strategy. Perhaps the most shocking revelation is the absolutely horrendous inheritence hierarchy exposed by the Avalon API. Miguel himself is clearly not amused, saying 'We do not want to waste our time with dead-end APIs as we are vastly under-resourced, so we must choose carefully.'"

Comments

Re:As far as I understand...

[yanestra]

1) Microsoft isn't porting anything to Linux.

But they have Mr. Icaza.

2) Miguel doesn't work for Microsoft, and never has.

Why then he improves their ideas?

3) Miguel works for Ximian, a company he founded, and which is now owned by Novell.

I understand. And Novell has never announced any co-operation with Microsoft. Right or wrong?

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

[DAldredge]

And what is wrong with .net/mono?

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

[melgeroth]

I dont like langs/platform that tell me what I can and cannot do.

I don't like verbosity.

I don't like pseudo-open languages with small legal catches which could open up lawsuits against other implementations down the road.

I don't like stupid zealot followers who think anyone who opposes their Best Language Ever is an idiot.

I don't think it's needed - we have java for huge enterprise application frameworks, python/ruby for fast scalable apps, C/C++ for system programming, CLISP/Haskell/etc. for everything in general. What does .NET do for me, besides tie me to a vendor and reinvent the wheel? Why should I waste my cycles? (if I wanted to hear a JIT-is-faster-than-asm argument, I would have visited a .NET site!) If I need an interpreted language, I'd go use Ruby, or god forbid Java!

Are we done having our trollfest yet?

Idiot. Try posting on topic, or wait for the next ".NET == Ubar! C# 4 T3h Win!" post.

same old same old

[Miguel de Icaza]

1. embrace & extend svg & xul by anouncing avalon/xaml vaporware
2. sit on hands as svg & xul die
3. profit

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

[melgeroth]

Firstly, good luck compiling Java and beating GCC at anything at all.

Reading comprehension, read my original post.

Or I'll paste it here for you:

"That said, I hate .NET/Mono *and* Java, so my opinion is moot here."

Java ~ .NET for now, but Java was already around before .NET. I don't see a need for .NET with Java already here. Disagree? fine. lets disagree.

Either way I can code circles around most of those programmers in perl, or pretty much any other web-capable language (not talking about C++ here).

Right tool for the right job. Problem is, I don't see a job for .NET.

That's my opinion. You can have yours.

Re:Ease of use and elegence with GUI toolkits

[jenkin sear]

Swing isn't hard to learn - it just runs like crap, even on fast hardware.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

[Miguel de Icaza]

Are we done having our trollfest yet?

poor poor melgeroth (726004), the kde trolls don't even get up for another 3 hours.

Re:Ad Nauseum

[Miguel de Icaza]

Possibly microsoft's answer to competing and blowing away the mozilla XUL or whatever it is called these days

all that needs to happen for microsoft to blow away XUL is for fools to believe the hype. remember when NT 3.x was going to destroy UNIX prompting sgi to jump ship. remember how itanic was supposed to take over high-end risc prompting HP to kill their shit-hot cpus (sob).

YOU CAN BUILD GREAT THINGS WITH XUL &/ SVG TODAY THEY ARE READY FOR PRIMETIME RIGHT NOW
or you could sit there sniffing the sweet vapour

Avalon is propaganda, spin, FUDware it could never see a compiler and still acomplish all the goals in its requirements document - kill the openstandard crossplatform richclient (xul, svg, webstart, eclipse rich client platform (very nice) christ even flash opening up and getting some serious backend features).

Re:look at those URLs...

[Miguel de Icaza]

in addition siince novell owns ximian and novell licenced unix copyright to SCO, SCO sold a licence to Microsoft. Microsoft licensed Java from Sun, Microsoft are evil so Sun withdrew the license. Microsoft copied unlicensed java technology into .NET, novell bought ximian, ximian own$ mono, mono is not under GPL / LGPL license or Microsoft shared source license. If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit. The defense rests.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk....

[fucksl4shd0t]

And oh, completely offtopic -- what's the deal with saying, work fine in OOorg -- shouldn't that be works fine with OO? Why the org/.org thingy?

Trademark. Somebody holds a trademark on OpenOffice(tm) that's not connected to the OpenOffice.org project we all love (theoretically, anyway, that love I mean). So OpenOffice.org had to change their name to avoid getting in trouble over the trademark. Mind you, the OpenOffice(tm) crew (whoever they are, I forget who) are totally disconnected from OO.org, and I think they're not even competitive with them. So it's cool, just respecting someone else's trademark, and they're happy with OpenOffice.org's fix of just appending .org to their name.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk....

[fucksl4shd0t]

You just made my dick hard.

Just in case you wanted to know...

Re:object model

[fucksl4shd0t]

On the Right of the Preview button is a little combobox that lets you select the format of your post. Just choose "Plain old text" if you don't want to use any html.

Re:first postage!

[fucksl4shd0t]

I think that just demonstrates that Miguel probably knows something about inheritance....

As an American I need to make that clear.

As a Texan, I certainly want Miguel to remember the Alamo!