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Assault Weapons Ban

An anonymous reader writes "With all the Constitutional arguments that appear on /., perhaps some readers might be interested in this BBC Article about the expiration of the Clinton assault weapons ban. Both presidential candidates have spoken in favor of it, but no one is willing to vote to keep it."

12 of 386 comments (clear)

  1. One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by Skyshadow · · Score: 4, Insightful
    See, the best part about paying for Slashdot is that I see articles like this coming and have time to don my aesbestos underoos.

    This is one of those issues which wouldn't be complicated if we could sit down and work out a reasonable comprimise, but of course that's not how we work in America anymore. Gotta stick with either-or's, and the other side are a bunch of wackos or nutcases. But, even though I know it's gonna get my ass flamed, I'll take a swing at it. I'm not scared. I got my aesbestos underoos on.

    Obviously guns don't cause people to shoot each other, there are more complex reasons for it. That said, however, it's the access to high-capacity weapons (like the ones that were banned) that enables these folks to go out and kill half their highschool. Preventing gun makers from building these guns obviously makes it tougher for people to get them, which is a Good Thing -- nobody has a legitimate reason for owning a 30 round clip.

    But the GOP are all a bunch of whores to the NRA, who don't let reason creep in on their paranoia about pinko lefties coming to take away their guns and kick over their stills or whatever. They, combined with a few people on the extreme left who don't think people ought to be able to hunt or whatever, combine to paralyze the whole damn debate.

    But then we're down to the apparently unresolvable gun control back and forth. But that's okay, 'cause I got my fireproof underoos. Flame away.

    --
    Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    1. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by ElForesto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Perhaps you can explain away New Zealand or Switzerland. As Michael Moore figure out with Bowling for Columbine, it's not the guns.

      The idea of citizens controlling the same weaponry as the military has several purposes.

      • Firstly, it creates a strong defensive force for the country in case of invasion. That doesn't seem as likely now as it did then, but I'd rather have it than not have it, kinda like the 3rd Amendment.
      • Secondly, it keeps the government in check by allowing the people the means to hold a revolution if necessary. England regularly rounded up swords in Scotland to keep it under its control (way back when, of course). Stalin did the same thing in many Soviet republics. China does it now. (I've heard they resort to using bombs now instead of guns. Much more safe, right?)
      • Thirdly, there is much evidence in England and Australia that the outlaw of weapons invariably leads to the criminals being the only ones that own them. Their home-invasion rates are also through the roof.

      Regardless of your personal opinion on what the law should be, the highest law of the land says we are a nation of gun owners. It is my belief that the original intent of the 2nd Amendment did not allow for all of the current laws and regulations concerning firearms. I personally have never submitted to a background check and refuse to participate in registration programs.

      --
      There is a difference between "insightful" and "inciteful" other than spelling.
    2. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by Sevn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm just REALLY GLAD that these laws have made it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for the average citizen to get their hands on ASSAULT WEAPONS. I mean, if people could easily get a HIGH QUALITY, 2 MOA .308 CALIBER WEAPON REALLY CHEAP, or HIGH CAPACITYmagazines and ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITIONanyway, and all of this was COMPLETELY LEGAL, people would think these laws were FUCKING STUPID, ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS, and accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I know I'd be about pissed if my tax dollars were wasted on a war on a STYLE of weapon that accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but make people purchase the hunting rifle version of the guns that ONLY LOOKED more dangerous. Especially if YOU COULD BUY THE FUCKING THINGS ANYWAY. Man. I'd be even more pissed if you could do it over the Internet.

      Thank You.

      --
      For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
    3. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by Phillup · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Second point is that its only been illigal to make new guns, not illigal to own or even sell an existing gun.

      Yep.

      I never really felt the need to own a gun. But, when both the house and senate passed this bill (1994) I went out and bougt a shitload of the subject material before it got signed into law.

      I felt that as soon as my government started limiting guns was about the time I needed to get real interested in owning some.

      So now... the only guns I own... are assault weapons, purchased as a direct result of this laws passage.

      Go figure.

      --

      --Phillip

      Can you say BIRTH TAX
    4. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by 0x0d0a · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And the constitution was written when assault weapons and handguns didn't *exist*. SO the same logic that bans nuclear bombs can be used to ban them.

      No, both assault weapons and handguns did exist in the Revolutionary War period. They weren't identical to the same as the guns we have today, true -- the concept of an automatic weapon didn't exist. An assault weapon was a bayonet-equipped musket. But it is necessary to provide someone an automatic weapon to keep them competitive with someone else with an automatic weapon. From the link above: Thomas Jefferson, for example, noted in 1803 that "None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined, is therefore at all times important." He later commented that "...we cannot be defended but by making every citizen a soldier, as the Greeks and Romans who had no standing armies."

      The constitution is quite clear- well ordered militias are allowed arms.

      I'll include another link from the site. Sure that's what they meant?

      The stuff people spout about it being so people can revolt is pure bull, its a moddern idea espoused by a few far right nutjobs in the past century.

      A *modern* idea? How do you explain the Revolutionary War? The writings of our Founding Fathers?

      But stopping fellons from getting them easily, requiring registration, making resell illegal (unless reregistering), and limiting the amount of damage a gun can do before reloading are all decent comprimises.

      Do you know how Castro took power? Cuba had a gun registry. Immediately after his coup, he took a collection of soldiers around and confiscated everyone's guns. If you have three guns registered and you don't turn over three guns, you were executed. He did so before people had time to organize. Then, he retained control of the military, which controlled the arms. Hence, control of the nation.

      As for felons (people who have been convicted of a felony -- let's not try to isolate ourselves from them so that we can mistreat them without feeling bad about it) -- I could see limiting gun access to felons that have committed a felony using a *gun*. But how does it benefit anyone to have, say, an embezzler denied gun rights?

      Heck, I'm still amazed that in most states, people in jail for committing a felony are denied *sufferage*. That's astounding (and a major coup for the Republican party -- drug crimes have eliminated much of the black vote).

    5. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by RWerp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I personally feel as though murder should be decriminalized. Think about how much crime would be reduced and law enforcement's job would be made so much easier.

      I have never seen before as naive statement as this. After the Roman Empire collapsed, Europe was ruled by barbarian tribes' laws, which had the same opinion on murder as you do: that it was up to victims' family to deliver justice to the murderer. Firstly, they had vendetta. This was bad, because one murder resulted in a lot of further deaths (murderer, his relatives, some people from victims side, etc.) So the custom allowed to close the deal with a money transfer. Opportunity of earning lot of money made victims' families feel even more vindictive. Somehow, the chiefs and kings decided that it was not The Best Thing To Do (tm) and decided to take away the right to punish the murderers from the people and institute a "monopoly on punishment" as we have it today. You may say "just another example of Europen despotism", but this was a wise thing to do. When murder is not punished by the state, people will only feel safe when they have enough strong family to defend them. People with enough money would fell free to kill, and later bribe the victims' relatives to forgo vendetta. The society would reduce to small isolated outposts, distrustful of outsiders, because of the possibility of "hit and run" kill (if the guy flees, nobody else apart from the victims' family will risk his head to help to catch him).

      If that does not convince you, go check examples of countries which today have no rule of law, where murder is not punished by the state. They are: Iraq, Chechenya, Afghanistan. Not the best places to live under the sun, eh?

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    6. Re:One, two, three, four, I declare a flame-war! by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It is my pleasure to reply to a suitably armored poster.

      ...nobody has a legitimate reason for owning a 30 round clip.

      I always get annoyed when discussions about the Second Amendment come up and everybody immediately starts thinking about gunpowder. That's not what it's about.

      The Second Amendment (Right to Bear Arms) is not a result of the wildly successful 1776 Sportsman's PAC. It wasn't meant to authorize individuals or groups to assassinate government officials in case they went insane. And it wasn't an attempt to ensure people could keep trading old flintlocks like so many Disco albums from the '70's.

      It was an acknowledgement of a problem which faced the fledgling Colonies at the time, and is still quite relevant today.
      You can pass a law making it illegal for people to keep and bear arms, but the people most dangerous to the survival of the Nation aren't going to listen. Because of this, we need to be sure this nation can survive even if we face an enemy that doesn't play by our rules. In this respect, outlawing guns works against us, in that it allows us to implement policies that, if the subjects had guns, we could never get away with. So instead we outlaw the practice of disarming the populace.

      It's a way of saying to prospective government organizers: "if you want to run this place, you have to figure out how to make it work without taking away people's weapons. If you can't, you're not worthy of running this place. Period. Just like if you can't figure out how to run this place without favoring one religion over another, or shutting down the free press, or silencing your critics, or preventing peaceful assembly, or violating peoples privacy, or searching their homes, documents, things, or imprisoning people without charges or due process, or holding onto a suspect indefinitely without letting him see a lawyer, or torturing prisoners, or trying to make a Federal Law to ban powers reserved to the States, then just go away, because you're not up to the job. Sure, running the country is easy if you can do that stuff; but we have higher standards."

      The rise of gun violence should not be seen as being caused by the availability of guns as much as it should be viewed as a failure of our society to remain violence free in the face of weapons availability. Don't curse the NRA, they're just the weather vane.

      Should we read the Second Amendment to say that we should all be packing porta-nukes? For the safety of the Nation, of course. No. What it means is that we should strive to build a country that can survive even if our next door neighbor decides to pack a porta-nuke. Because, the reality of the world is (and will always be) that our next door neighbor just might be packing a porta-nuke.

      In a world like this, the only possible way to be safe is to first make sure that nobody in their right mind would have a reason to light-up their porta-nuke, and second to understand that occasionally we will encounter a person or two who isn't in their right mind, who's going to kill a lot of people and cause a lot of damage (kinda like one of those Hurricanes) and that we better just be prepared for it to happen, and be prepared to deal with it when it does. An approch which says "we'll prevent a hurricane from ever happening here" can only be followed by "we don't need FEMA anymore, now do we", which shows clearly how backward such an approach is.

      On September 11th, 2001, the U.S. saw an example of an attack which some claim represents a new kind of threat to this nation. But was also saw a flawless demonstration of the kind of defense against that threat which our Founding Fathers hoped we would deploy, and knew even then would be effective. On Flight 93, the attack failed, not because of some smart weapon posessed by the U.S. army, or because some airport screener matched-up two names on a No Fly list, but because of the democratic defense;

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

  2. The ban didn't affect crime by JohnnyX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Commentators from both sides of the gun control debate have gone on record as saying that the Assault Weapons Ban didn't have an effect on crime. Certain guns were banned because of how they looked (folding stock, pistol grip, etc.), not because of how they functioned (all the banned guns fire the same caliber of bullets and at the same speed as ordinary hunting rifles). In addition, large rifles are not weapons of choice for committing crimes. Criminals prefer handguns.

    The ban is sunsetting because it didn't really do any good and nobody is willing to risk their political career on renewing it. Even if it did come to a vote, I'm not sure Kerry would risk the swing state votes by voting to renew it. Bush would probably be forced to eat his words when it comes to signing it.

    The whole thing is one great political football. The assault weapons I'm worried about are those that are being used on both sides of our failed war in Iraq, not the ones sitting in a gun collector's safe.

    Yours truly,
    Mr. X

    ...common-sense...

  3. Good riddance to bad law by j.+andrew+rogers · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I can't wait to see this die, and I wish sunsetting would be used for all our laws.

    The so-called "Assault Weapon Ban" was nothing more than a feel-good measure that had nothing to do with crime or safety. All it did manage to do was annoy and/or piss-off people who buy or own guns. No appreciable benefit to any constituency, and a big downside to a rather sizeable constituency. It is no wonder that most politicians don't want to touch this issue, and Bush knew full well that it would never end up on his desk. If you ignore the Democrats in "safe States" like California, who can soapbox on this issue all day without consequences, it is a "third-rail" issue everywhere else whether you are a Democrat or a Republican.

    The 1994 Congressional blood bath pretty much assures that gun control won't be touched again for a long time.

  4. Why do you think we have the 2nd Amendment? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why do you think we *have* the Second Amendment, crispyman?

    It has nothing to do with sport weapons.

    It is, very simply, to avoid oppressive regimes from ever dominating the citizenry by disarming them.

    A gun that could only shoot non-humans would have absolutely nothing to do with the spirit of the Second Amendment. Gun rights were guaranteed specifically so that *people* could be shot as a last ditch resort.

    I have no interest in ever owning a gun -- the benefits provided by the Second Amendment are present as long as enough citizenry own guns. However, I strongly support allowing citizenry access to assault weapons.

    Note that guns simply guarantee Hobbsian "rough equality" between people and soldiers -- if soldiers have assault rifles, people also need assault rifles. I do *not* support allowing people to have weapons that allow massive amplification of killing power above that of a soldier as long as they strike first -- like bombs and the like. Assault weapons? Sure, I'd say that it's pretty much essential to allow people to have assault weapons.

    Take a look at Switzerland -- they have almost no limitations on the weapons civilians can have. You want a howitzer, you can have one. And if you're a male and above a certain age, you *must* own a rifle -- you're considered part of the militia. As a result (even aside from the fact that Switzerland has never been invaded) Switzerland has a low gun crime rate, much lower than the United States. It's hard to glamorize a tool that everyone has (e.g. you could stick someone in the eye with a pen, but everyone has a pen and it isn't very exciting). Furthermore, it's a dissusasive factor to someone who might consider committing a crime if most people are walking around with weapons. Sure, maybe you can pull out your gun and hold up a bank, but you're nothing special -- it'd be like doing so with a knife when everyone else has knives. Or with your bare hands when everyone else has bare hands -- you're going to be hurt by similarly-armed people.

    I could *maybe* even see gun laws banning handguns. But never assault rifles. Assault weapons are the core of the Second Amendment.

    1. Re:Why do you think we have the 2nd Amendment? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There you have a populace that isn't standing an army (all standing armies do these days is get levelled - that's what heavy ordinance is for), but are equipped with not just assualt rifles, but mines, rocket propelled grenades, high explosives and a will to die for their cause. While they are managing to cause serious problems, they are a long way from overthrowing the government as long as the US military remains involved.

      If an administration ever attempted to turn the United States military against said United States citizenry, there are several differences from Iraq:

      (a) Many members of our military would probably not follow orders to kill US citizens.

      (b) The target count is overwhelming. Our military isn't designed around carpet-bombing any more. An angry populace doesn't have long tank convoys to destroy.

      (c) Resupply wouldn't exist. How long can you keep an A-10 flying without a populace providing fuel and parts for it?

  5. Good riddance by Experiment+626 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This has been a very ill-conceived and widely misunderstood law, and I will be glad to see it go.

    The affected weapons are mostly ones that outwardly resemble military firearms, while having nowhere near the firepower. Rather than firing bursts of ammunition like their fully-automatic counterparts, the so-called assault rifles fire one shot at a time, with less powerful ammunition than a hunting rifle. Pistols affected by this law generally had outward designs similar to fully-automatic submachine guns, but had only the same caliber and rate of fire as an ordinary handgun - with much bulkier size and weight.

    A criminal would be an idiot to choose a firearm from the affected class of firearms. They would use an ordinary handgun, or if they really sought something more powerful as defenders of the legislation claim, they would smuggle in some firearms that actually WERE military grade instead of just superficially looking like it.

    In practice, the only people affected by the law have been legitimate gun collectors, who disagree with the law but struggle to comply with it. What shape grips constitute a "conspicuous pistol grip"? When the law requires a barrel attachment to be "permanently affixed", do you weld it, super-glue it on, pin it, use lock-tight? Interpret the subjective phrases differently than someone at the ATF, and you become a felon.

    The other major provision was a limitation on ammunition magazines ("clips") to 10 rounds. Much like 640k of memory, this might seem to be enough for anybody. But, given that those who are most in the know about defending oneself in life and death situations (police, military, federal agents, etc.) generally carry larger magazines than this themselves, even with superior training to worry less about missing their target, perhaps there is something to be said for having a couple extra rounds just in case.

    The other flaw with the 10 round limit is that it was based on the arbitrary assumption that no civilian would ever need more than this to protect themself, but provided no guarantee to back this up. Why did the law not include language guaranteeing that before any civilian had fired the 10th shot in a life-and-death situation, police would had arrived on the scene and taken their attacker into custody?