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Gentoo Linux 2004.2: What You See Is What You Get
editingwhiz writes "Jem Matzan has a cogent analysis of the new Gentoo Linux 2004.2 on Linux.com: "Gentoo Linux is the BSD of GNU/Linux distributions; it's elegant and customizable and you know exactly what you're getting when you install it. No mystery programs, no packages that you have to deinstall because you'll never use, no clutter, and everything is customized to your needs. If you do it right, Gentoo is also faster than your average GNU/Linux distro because everything can be compiled with higher compiler optimizations." (Linux.com is part of the OSTG network.)" Jem also has some criticism of the current version of Gentoo's AMD64 version.
What you see and what you get is a bash prompt on the cd boot. It is worse than slackware on the install
I'd have said "better than slackware on the install". I realise I'm in the minority here, but I like a simple, text-based install process. After Gentoo's, my favourite installers (of those I've used) are Debian's old-style one and [Free|Open]BSD. They do what they need to, and don't get in the way.
Oh, and the other major plus with Gentoo's install: you don't need an install CD to do it; any Linux system will do. I haven't yet found another distro or OS that lets you do that.
But you learn SO MUCH about how your system works. Afterwards you're able to use your computer so much better, since you know how it got that way in the first place. The documentation guides you very well through the process, too. If you aren't capable of installing from the command line, you won't be able to fix any problems from the command line either.
Conversely, though, it might be that Gentoo actually has good documentation that tells you WHY things work as opposed to just a list of key commands. If that's the case, however, why do I actually need the distro? Can't I just read the Gentoo documentation, learn about Linux's innerworkings, and then just apply that to whatever distro I see fit. After all, if I can edit an XF86Config file by hand under Gentoo, I can edit it by hand under RedHat. The GUI tools may change between distros, but the important stuff is always the same, so the Gentoo docs should be universal, making Gentoo a doc project that just has some sample software attached to it.
That's actually the entire point. No clutter, unless it's your clutter.
Nano? Did you read the documentation (or man page, for that matter)? It specifically mentions you need to use the -w switch, or it will break (wrap) lines.
It's init.d.
And here I thought the BSD crowd was the "RTFM" one.
"An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program."
I'd suggest if you don't know what you are doing to use fedora or SuSE or Mandrake. Debian is still more for the 'geek' than fedora or SuSE.
I'd have to say that having used FreeBSD, NetBSD, RH/Fedora, and Slackware, Gentoo is a refreshing change. It gives me all the drivers in GNU/Linux, and the BSD minimalism ability. So I can install and configure the system as I want.
Only thing I haven't yet been able to do figure out is how to emerge world from packages and not build the whole world. It takes to darn long on a p233.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Learing how your system works is great. But I already know. Most of the time when I want to install linux on a new system, I just want to get it installed. Not having excess packages is great, and control over the install is great, but extra typing and waiting is not. In that vein, RedHat's installer is tolerable, but not optimal in that it's hard to get as minimal an install as I'd like. Debian's installer is pretty good, though it requires doing a bit more manual work than I'd like. Anything more manual than Debian's installer is just too much for me.
When it comes to Linux newbies, install time isn't the time to learn about the system. You want to learn about the system when you have all the emotionally-satisfying and high usability eye candy and applications installed. If people have to read lots of documentation in order to install the system, they are likely to get frustrated and possibly give up. Of course, there's more motivation to learn how the system works when you need to do so in order to install it. On the other hand, if the goal is world domination, you don't want to limit it to only the die hard techies.
And as much as I'm a command line junkie, I don't think joe user should be required to to be one too in order to do the basic stuff with his computer. Expecting joe admin to be savvy about the commandline is well and good, but not joe user.
-Cheetah
I've thought about switching to Debian a few times, because I'm really not particularly fond of linux configuration as a hobby (it gets old after 5 years or so, you know?) But it's always so disheartening to drop back a few versions on all the packages I'm running. And in the meantime I've gotten used to Gentoo's strange world, and now I guess it's a habit.
Still, hats off to the Gentoo development teams--for something that probably appeals to such a limited demographic, it works far more fantastically well then I ever would have thought.
My only wonder is--if .NET (mono) and Java really take off in the future with Just-In-Time compilation, will Gentoo become less interesting. Essentially, EVERY computer is going to start compiling optimized versions of its code for its particular needs. In fact, since the optimizations are at run-time, we can expect JIT to be even more machine-specific than Gentoo's optimization and USE flags. Like, if I install another Gig of memory future JIT compilers might gradually recompile all the bytecode on my system to unroll loops more often or something.
So, in the future, I think we'll be sitting somewhere halfway in between Gentoo and binary distribution--sending diffs of the bytecodes for my applications out instead of binary or source.
And while I'm dreaming, why don't we make those bytecodes proof carrying code. Like, for every piece of code executing on my system, I want to see either the automatically checked proof that the code won't explode my system, or the name of someone who signed the code claiming it won't explode my system. If neither of those are found, I want Future Gentoo to issue a big flashing red warning "WARNING THIS CODE WILL EAT YOUR PARENTS DO NOT INSTALLL!!!!!!!" Man, the future is going to be so awesome.
You're completely missing the point. If you don't need the package to boot, then it's not on there. If you want it, then compile it and put it on there. I don't want packages that someone thinks I should have but not needed. If I want them, I'll emerge them.
I, as a former Gentoo user, used to believe this. And then I realized how ludicrous it was to believe that typing "emerge world" somehow gives you any insight into how the operating system itself works.
/usr/bin on a clean system.
Yes, you become familiar with some aspects of BASH. Yes, you learn what chroot does. Yes, you could have learned all of it by simply picking up a book and reading, or just looking around in
Gentoo doesn't make you a knowledgeable Linux user. Spending time actually at the command-line does.
No comment.
From my small experience with gentoo, this is actually the case. The docs are really good, in that they tell you what to do, why you're doing it, and what effect it will have.
And with regards to just reading the doc and applying it to another distro, it's really more of a walkthrough of manually installing gentoo. I guess theoretically you could read it and get just as much benefit without doing anything, but by the same logic, you could become college-educated by simply buying the books for all the classes and reading them yourself...
It's OK! I'm a limo driver!
Installing Gentoo isn't a magic rite of passage that turns anyone into an experienced Linux guru. All Gentoo does is force you to use command-line tools like mount and mk*fs. Compare this to other distros where the option is there to use the command-line tools, but it's easier to use the shiny GUI app. It's like the difference between a High School Spanish class and taking a foreign exchange trip to Spain for a few months; you will learn a lot more (assuming you want to learn in the first place) if you have to immerse yourself in a unfamiliar environment where you have to learn if you want to get anything done.
Of course, this path isn't suitable for everybody, which is why things like High School Spanish and RedHat exist. To each his own.
Conversely, though, it might be that Gentoo actually has good documentation that tells you WHY things work as opposed to just a list of key commands. If that's the case, however, why do I actually need the distro? Can't I just read the Gentoo documentation, learn about Linux's innerworkings, and then just apply that to whatever distro I see fit. After all, if I can edit an XF86Config file by hand under Gentoo, I can edit it by hand under RedHat. The GUI tools may change between distros, but the important stuff is always the same, so the Gentoo docs should be universal, making Gentoo a doc project that just has some sample software attached to it.
If Gentoo was only about teaching people how to use the console, then it probably would just be a pile of docs. However, Gentoo is about much more, which is why it is a full-fledged distro.
live(free) || die;
gcc isn't as much of an issue for breakage (at least as far my experience has been) as glibc.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Yes, compiling with optimizations will make it run faster, but not the fastest. A prelinked system will outrun a non-prelinked system. This is why Mandrake would boot faster than normal Gentoo install, and KDE was faster in launching applications, etc.
So...
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/prelink-howto.xml
There are lots of speed tweaks, someone should start a webpage.