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Antarctic Telescope?
angkor pastes "'A novel Antarctic telescope with 16-m diameter mirrors would far outperform the Hubble Space Telescope, and could be built at a tiny fraction of its cost, says a scientist from the Anglo-Australian Observatory in Sydney, Australia.'"
Exceptional Seeing At Dome C in Antarctica
I emailed "DaddyPants." Too bad they don't care. This story just quotes the other one.
Would this telescope be as beneficial as the Hubble considering the Hubble isn't attached to any surface and can freely move in space... This Antartic version would have limited viewing capabilities, so which would you rather have?
The best way to predict the future is to invent it. -Alan Kay
See more about this site (and the AASTINO, the Little Telescope That Could) at Wednesday's Story
Cue The Sun...
The scientist is even quoted as saying so ... FTFA:
"... It's nearly as good as being in space."
Nearly as good, perhaps, but while you may have minimized light pollution by using the Antartic you still have the atmosphere diffusing incoming light. It's like a being a photojournalist with a sheet of fine tissue paper over your lens.
Built it on top of K2 or some other super-high peak if you want to keep it on earth, and only image things that are relatively perpindicular to minimize atmospheric distortion.
'Software' algorithms could compensate for the effects of the atmosphere. (probably by using data gather by Hubble)
No, you use Adaptive optics. Antarctica is particolarly good because the atmosphere effects are small, so the adaptive optics works very well.
When the sun is up (summertime) you can observe in the infrared and submillimeter. Hubble's observing efficiency is about 50% due to the requirement to avoid the Earth, the South Atlantic Anomaly, slew time, etc.
The limitation is sky coverage is not important for many astronomical programs. Important regions such as the Galactic Center, the Magellanic Clouds, and the South Galactic Pole, are all visible.
Does Antartica get that much snow - I always thought it was more of a desert. It doesn't snow much, but what's there doesn't melt.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
What about taking a picture of something in the northern sky? The Hubble can swing around and take a picture of nearly everything, at least "AFAI can reason", but one mounted at the South Pole would only be able to take a picture of the southern sky. I mean, plenty of stuff going on down there, but seems like most of the research has been in the north.
(Which has it's ups and downs... more likely to discover something new, but can't follow up observations made up north.)
AMANDA is a cosmic ray array detector, not an optical telescope.
Perhaps the scientists (you know, the people who know ALL ABOUT how to get the best use from a telescope, the same people who designed it!) might just have taken that into account ?
The main constituent of atmospheric aberration is turbulence within the atmosphere. The atmosphere over the Antarctic is the thinnest in the world, it has far less turbulence because it's damn cold (heat = energy = motion of the gas), not to mention any massive heat 'spires' from human pollution.
You can use adaptive optics to characterise and therefore minimise the effects of the atmosphere - you shine a laser upwards, scatter off sodium atoms ~90km up, and use the measurements as inputs to actuators on the mirror segments approx 1000x per second. This can significantly remove the aberration if done correctly (you can use 2 adaptive systems, one natural, one artificial with a laser)
In any event, this is all old news, and there are existing telescopes using the technology. There have been arguments made before for the use of ground-based devices rather than space-based ones...
And yes, I do have an interest in astronomy, but of the radio kind rather than the optical variety - I picked all the above up from news channels...
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
I'm an ex-astronomer, so I'll comment on this.
...
The optical arangement is unlike any I've seen before or heard of. I don't have the expertise or the information to comment on whether it will really work. I'll just comment that making optically flat mirrors was very hard (much harder than the normal curved mirrors) last time I heard, but there might be new technology to help here.
There are basically three competing locations: space, Antarctica, somewhere else on Earth. There is an order of magnitude or more in accessibility and cost between each option.
Space:
Pro:
Access to the full range of wavelengths - no atmospheric absorption or emission. (Particularly useful in UV and IR.)
No atmospheric bluring - diffraction limited resolution at all wavelengths
Can observe almost any part of the sky at any time.
Con:
Hugely expensive
Very inaccessible - service missions are either impossible or cost hundreds of millions or more
Size limitations on launch - either the telescope is smallish (Hubble) or needs even more expense to 'unfold' in orbit (new generation space telescope).
Very hostile environment: cold on one side, hot on another, radiation belts,
Antarctica:
Pro:
Access to wavelengths difficult or impossible to access elsewhere on Earth (mostly mid to far IR. The ozone hole presumably helps out in UV also.)
Best seeing on the planet: very little atmospheric blur much of the time.
Con:
Can only ever view half the sky
Unusable during summer
Very expensive
Poor accesibility: Only during summer, only at great expense.
Hostile environment: extreme cold. Possible build up of ice by sublimation deposition.
Anywhere else:
Pro:
Cheapest
Daily access, can drive a truck up to the telescope
Can have astronomers on site, e.g. debugging new detectors
Can see the northern hemisphere
Con:
Poor seeing
Many interesting wavelengths inaccessible or hard to observe
Unusable during the day
We need all three - space for what we can't do on Earth, Antarctica for what we can't do elsewhere (except space, which costs more). Whether the telescope described (very briefly...) in the article is sensible I couldn't say, nor could I say whether it makes sense to use Dome C rather than the more accessible, and manned, south pole base.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
The article from a few days ago about seeing at Dome C explains this: they get very, very little snowfall there. However, they do get blown ice crystals, but not very many at the proposed location. The linked article makes great reading.
The site at Paranal have 4 8.5 meter telescopes and interferometry can can equate their imaging to the distance they stand apart.
Huh? Hubble rotates very fast around the earth. It probably passes through the earth's shadow every couple of hours. It is in low earth orbit - has to be since the shuttle cannot reach high orbits.
Oh well, what the hell...
That several thousand feet is ice. Given the temperature, it's pretty stable. The Amundsen-Scott base is built on top of it.
Ice also doesn't cover the whole of Antarctica; if you're worried about ice you could build your telescope right on top of the permafrost. Some pictures of the "dry valleys" are here.
Yours truly,
Jeffrey Boulier
The same way other AO systems work - by using nearby bright stars. This is a 16m dish - there are quite a few things considered "bright" by those standards
yes, but there are also problems with laser guide stars. Like they're hard to get working. Also, when you start adding multiple guide stars, as in Multi-conjugate AO (MCAO), you decrease the field-of-view (which on a large telescope is already pretty small) with every laser guide you use. There are trade-offs. You get excellent images, but only over a tiny area.
Laser systems are also extremely complex (and hence expensive). You'd need to make a pretty good science case for why they're necessary, especially given that the *median* seeing in the antarctic (dome C) is already as low as 0.27" (and less than 0.15" for 25% of the time). Compare this to mauna kea (the current best site in the world) which gets to 0.4-0.5" on a good night.
Also, I think you might have missed the point with CCDs. without closing the shutter, you can't just discard photons from a ccd one they're detected. since there's no time-tagging (as in, say, the FUSE UV detectors) you can't exclude photons after the fact - "discarding those timeslots" is a bit harder than it sounds.
Actually empty space has a temperature of 2.73 Kelvin.
A couple of people have mentioned that you can't work in the ultraviolet part of the spectrum without going to space. True, and critically important to some science. Also, from Antarctica, you can only see the southern sky, not the north, so this is another limitation.
These are not good reasons not to build this proposed telescope, just ways in which Hubble is still uniquely qualified.
Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
It's a desert. The polar plateau gets gets less than an inch (water equivalent - 3 inches of snow) of snow fall a year.
Of course you gets lots of "snow sideways" - the wind blows the snow on the ground around which would have the same result telescope wise. And hence my pedantry is completely pointless.