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Tim Berners-Lee and the Semantic Web

An anonymous reader writes "As we all know, Tim Berners-Lee is the hero of the Web's creation story--he conjured up this system and chose not to capitalize on it commercially. It turns out that Sir Tim (he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II in July) had a much grander plan in mind all along--a little something he calls the Semantic Web that would enable computers to extract meaning from far-flung information as easily as today's Internet links individual documents. In an interview with Technology Review, the Web-maestro explains his vision of 'a single Web of meaning, about everything and for everyone.'"

21 of 250 comments (clear)

  1. What is the semantic web? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, beyond the "knowledge management"-type mumbo jumbo, anyway. Some basic definitions are here, here, and .

  2. Duplicate Posting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    See the original here.

    Actually Slashdot posts this article over and over again every few months, with basically the same headline (sometimes "and" sometimes "on" sometimes "Tim" sometimes not). Kinda bizarre really. :-) I've never read any of them, I only know this Berners-Lee fellow from the headlines.

  3. Dang CERNopeans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    As we all know, Al Gore is the hero of the Web's creation story.

  4. "Where's some semantic web software?" by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Informative

    This always gets asked - and a partial answer is right here.

    Eclipse plugins, visualization tools... there's some good stuff there.

  5. about everything and for everyone... by over_exposed · · Score: 4, Funny

    Except for China, they get their own semantic web with special semantic filters in place that semantically keep their citizens under semantic control.

    --
    "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Patton
    1. Re:about everything and for everyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I hope you're not anti-semantic?

  6. Opposing view by Psychic+Burrito · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you'd like an opposing view, make sure to read Clay Shirky's take on the semantic web.

    1. Re:Opposing view by Thuktun · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you'd like an opposing view, make sure to read Clay Shirky's take on the semantic web.

      His writings appear to have some uncorrected logical fallacies.
      Consider the following assertions:
      • Count Dracula is a Vampire
      • Count Dracula lives in Transylvania
      • Transylvania is a region of Romania
      • Vampires are not real
      You can draw only one non-clashing conclusion from such a set of assertions -- Romania isn't real.
      You can conclude the following from those statements:
      • Count Dracula is not real
      • Count Dracula lives in a region of Romania
      I'd like to see the mystery step that combines these to conclude that Romania isn't real; at most, you could say that Romania houses something that isn't real. The conclusion he makes isn't supported by any logic.

      More importantly, these are dumbed-down semantics. The assertion that a fictional character lives somewhere real needs to be qualified that this occurs in a certain set of fictional stories, not real life. The fact that these unqualified statements are represented in this example ontology means that the ontology is insufficient, not that this method isn't useful.

      Another example in that article:
      • US citizens are people
      • The First Amendment covers the rights of US citizens
      • Nike is protected by the First Amendment
      You could conclude from this that Nike is a person, and of course you would be right.
      This is even factually incorrect. The First Amendment doesn't actually say anything about US citizens; it restricts the US Congress from certain actions, period, not for certain people.

      Ignoring this, you can make one conclusion and reduce this to the following:
      • the First Amendment covers the rights of people
      • Nike is protected by the First Amendment
      Concluding that Nike is a person from this is a logical fallacy. (Nothing in these logical statements says the First Amendment might not also cover the disposition of small peanut butter sandwiches with blueberry jam, which set Nike might then be an element of.)

      I find it hard to treat this article with much weight, given its fast-and-loose treatment of logic and ontological assertions.
  7. Two major problems to a semantic web by levram2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The extra work required to put data into a standard data format won't be done. People can't bother making their pages w3c complaint (even slashdot). The second problem is that data formats can rarely be agreed upon by a large community. Look at how many calendar event and news feed formats there are.

  8. This burns me up!!! by octaene · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm so tired of Semantic trying to take over all the security tools. Are they now trying to take over the Internet? I mean really, Semantic Antivirus totally sucks ass big-time!!! And don't get me started on Semantic's SystemWorks tool and how bad it blows!

    Oh, wait a minute...

  9. Statistical text analysis killed semweb by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As has been stated many times, content producers will spoof semantic data just like they used to with the META tag...which is why no one uses the META tag anymore. Relevance algorithms take into account link analysis and statistical text analysis to provide a much more truthful representation of what data is there. Sorry Tim.

  10. Ontology by dodongo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I want to offer an alternative, as proposed by Victor Raskin at Purdue. I speak for neither Sergei Nirenburg nor Victor (who does enough talking for himself).

    While this idea for more thorough, concise, and accurate searches is a good one, I would question whether embedding semantic tags into web pages is the way to go.

    As outlined in Ontological Smenatics, there is an automated system of semantic processing already underway. Basically, it takes a text, then runs it through a parser, which looks up meanings in a lexicon, then reduces whatever translation it comes up with to a text-meaning representation (TMR), by pushing the concepts from the lexicon through an ontology / onomasticon / world-knowledge library. The TMR is basically the "pulp" of the semantics of the article, web page, book, or whatever it's been fed. It just contains the ideas, the things involved, and other relevant concepts, stripped of all other linguistic information.

    TMR is great, becuase the TMR can be used then, by reversing the process and using the lexicon of another language, to translate a text from one language to another.

    However, it seems to me that with the bits and pieces of the TMR stored in a search engine's index, this could be a huge boon for the search engine.

    Instead of just trying to match keywords, by parsing the TMR of web pages and by parsing TMR of search strings, you no longer search for keywords, but keyconcepts.

    The advantage to semantic searches / indexes by this implementation is manifold:

    -Searches (and the web as a whole) will gain the richness Mr. Berners-Lee is advocating.

    -Web authors will not be able to lie in their semantic tags, or otherwise misinform spiders what the page is about (remember tags?)

    -No extra work is required in the actual construct of the web or *ML standards. The TMR is only generated and stored by the sites / processes that need it.

    -Others?

    Just an alternative solution, for fun :)

  11. Not doing it right by vigyanik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The fact that Tim has been trying for 15 years to sell this idea with little success indicates that he approach is insufficient. He is pitching the idea just like a startup would, giving cool examples and everything. But in practice, all he is doing is proposing and overseeing standards. Developing standards for an idea is not what is required to prove that an idea works. Standards should follow successful technology, not vice versa. You need to have companies that make products professionally and offer complete solutions (i.e. make it work real-life situations). Doing it for a very simple example that he quotes ("find pictures taken on sunny days") itself is a big, big deal. Perhaps Tim should get involved with companies in this field as an advisor/consultant. You know, there are enough smart people out there who could develop the standards. But very few people with his name and recognition to truly ignite commercial interest in his ideas.

    1. Re:Not doing it right by dubious9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps Tim should get involved with companies in this field as an advisor/consultant.

      Um... he invented www and started the W3C. I'd say he's had some experience with companies as a advisor. Take a look at some of the W3C recommendations and look for corporate involvment.

      But in practice, all he is doing is proposing and overseeing standards.

      That's kinda what the W3C *does*.

      Standards should follow successful technology, not vice versa.

      XHTML,XML,XSLT and a lot of other recommendations started as standards that *later* had robust implementations. Technology that starts without standards if often not fully thought out and awkward, and at worst, proprietary. Waiting for technology before standards will only inhibit interoperability and adoption of the standard.

      The fact that Tim has been trying for 15 years to sell this idea with little success indicates that he approach is insufficient.

      I suppose that it has nothing to with the fact that it's a tremendouly difficult and abitious project. You're right. Anything that take 15 years to develop should be scrapped.

      --
      Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
  12. Google can leverage its search by PineHall · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is an account that predicts that Google will leverage its search results to create a Semantic Web. I see this as a distinct possibility. Especially Google leveraging its search results to help people buy and sell stuff.

  13. Re:The rest of us call this... by bongoras · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The Semantic web represents relationships between data based on metadata (i.e. data about data). This is a far more powerful way to describe the meaning of data.

    And this is what makes me wonder if this will amount to much more then an interested research project for grad students. In order for the SemWeb to amount to anything useful, everyone is going to have to include the metadata necessary to integrate their data into the Semantic Web. How's that going to work? Who's going to make it work?

  14. Second System Effect by xleeko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've been hearing noise about the semantic web, RDF, and what not for years now, and every time I do, the first thing that pops into my head is "Second System Effect".

    He got lucky once, because he put together some tools that were simple and straightforward enough for people to pick it up quickly, thereby avoiding the fate of the dozens of other hypertext systems going back to the late 1980's.

    Now, like all second systems, he wants to "do it right", over-engineering away all of the things that made the first one take off ...

    Just my opinionated rant ...

  15. Actually, Google is a search engine by wombatmobile · · Score: 4, Informative

    The rest of us call this... GOOGLE.

    Google searches undifferentiated text. In contrast, the semantic web is all about differentiating text by adding meta tags.

    For example, the word "Hilton" on a web page is ambiguous. It could be a hotel, or a celebrity. Which is it? With the semantic web we'd know:

    <motel>
    Hilton
    </motel>

    <celebrity>
    Hilton
    </celebrity>

    Of course, this is a fairly trivial example. A more meaningful example:

    <partnumber>
    LHMJ67523119900012
    </partnumber>
  16. Re:What Does 42 Mean for Privacy? by Allen+Zadr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Ah, but what constitutes privacy but an obscurity of your own behaviors in certain circles.

    That is to say, I may be an item scammer in online gaming realms, or in Diablo, but not in EverQuest. However, I may be one of the most honest people I know in the real world. Perhaps I have a second account that I use to Troll on Slashdot, but otherwise have this account where I try to post insightful information. You have the right to link these things, you may even have the right to link these to real world data like where I work and where I park my car. However, if I jilted someone in Diablo, do I want them to so easily find me and take it out on my car (as some people would)?

    Do I want my employer having instant access to all of my online transactions, regardless if I'm on shift or off shift at the time? Individually, these are not things that have been considered something you would even want to 'secure', yet they may be valuable to someone.

    --
    Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
  17. Why this is a bad idea - it's a taxonomy by Animats · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The big problem with the so-called "semantic web" is that trying to taxonomize ideas doesn't work very well. Full-text search works much better.

    In the beginning, we had library card catalogs, with their painful attempts to index and cross-reference books. That works well in some areas, typically ones where names of people are significant. Attempts to apply the same approaches to technical papers worked less well.

    There's a very elaborate classification system for patents. When you had to look through patents on paper or microfilm, it was essential. Now that we have full text search, it's used less and less.

    A modern example of this approach is the ACM Taxonomy, a structure into which all computer science can be fitted. (As an exercise, try to put the current Slashdot stories into that taxonomy.) Nobody actually uses that taxonomy to find anything.

    As to data interchangability, that's a separate issue, and more of a standards one. The big problem for publicly available data is that the cost of encoding the data is borne by different people than those who benefit from the encoding. Many companies don't like having all their product and pricing information easily searchable by price. (Froogle may change this, because Google has so much clout.)

    I've spent some time dealing with public financial reporting. There's opposition to detailed disclosure in a standardized format. Many companies don't want their detailed information to be too easily analyzed. Embarassing results show up.

    The future is better search engines, not user-created indexing data. As we've painfully learned, a search engine must look at the same data a human reader would, or it will be lied to. Lied to to the point of uselessness.

  18. The need for information management pops up again. by master_p · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you have followed this little crazy guy that is me, you may have seen that most of today's computer problems are because modern operating systems offer nothing in the information management department.

    Remember the CVS story a couple of days before? it's information management: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=123076&cid=103 47565

    WinFS is also about information management: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=121101&cid=101 99083

    The story that the Evolution e-mail client offers the e-mail data as a data model separate from the application? another information management issue.

    The web? information management issue.

    Distributed databases? information management issue.

    Web search engines? information management issue.

    Windows search tool? information management issue.

    The Windows registry? information management issue.

    The unix etc directory? information management issue.

    Enterprise workflows? again, an information management issue. That's why there is no general workflow solution accepted and used worldwide.

    Dynamic web site contents? information management issue.

    The semantic web? another information management issue!

    As you can see, from the numerous examples given above, all that an operating system should do, but no one does, is that it must manage information instead of files. If that is coupled with a distributed networked environment, 90% of the world's software would be considered obsolete overnight and the productivity and fun from using computers will increase 10fold.

    If any open source developer is reading this, you may contact me for a private discussion on the idea. THIS IS OPEN SOURCE'S BIGGEST CHANCE TO LEAD THE TECHNOLOGICAL RACE!