Kodak Wins $1 Billion Java Lawsuit

nberardi writes "The Rochester Democrat & Chronicle is reporting that Eastman Kodak Company has just won a patent suit against Sun on the Java Language. According to the article Kodak owns a patent which describes a way for a piece of software to "ask for help" from another application. What they are claiming is that Sun violates this patent when Java byte code uses the Java engine to run the code. This may really upset the industry, because not only Sun uses this technology for Java but Microsoft uses this technology in .Net."

Comments

WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[base3]

And people laugh at me when I say the stock market is nothing but a legalized casino.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[general_re]

Sure, the camera people. Their native market - chemicals, film, film cameras - is gradually dying due to advances in technology elsewhere, and so they plan to sue themselves right back into the game. Sound like a familiar plan?

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[Richard_at_work]

Why not? Kodak is a huge international corporation, and usually such corps have massive and overreaching research arms. Quite a few companies have patents well outside their normal scope. IBM has pharmaceutical orientated patents, yet its doubtful you are going to see them produce medicines any day soon. What was a telephone company doing developing UNIX? Why does Boeing own patents on bridgebuilding? Its not wierd when you think about it.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[slAckEr Of dOOm]

Soon we'll be calling every patent lawsuit a "Kodak moment"

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[servoled]

Perhaps this will help explain how Kodak came across these patents. From Boston Business Journal:

Three patents once registered to Lowell minicomputer-maker Wang Laboratories could cost Sun Microsystems Inc. $1 billion, following a jury verdict Friday afternoon in Rochester, N.Y.

Jurors ruled that Sun's Java web software infringes the patents, which were acquired by Eastman Kodak Co. in 1997, first reported Friday afternoon in the Rochester Business Journal. The same jury will assign damages, with Kodak asking for $1 billion.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[drinkypoo]

Yes, the telephone company developed UNIX. Yes, Microsoft is branching out into "entertainment and media". No, the two are not remotely the same. Yes, they both make sense.

AT&T was a natural user of computer systems. They invented the packet switched network for long distance telephone calling. It only makes sense that they should be interested in computers since their network (on that scale) was not possible without them. Even discounting billing (no pun intended) the fact is that computers are an absolute necessity for switched networks.

Microsoft, on the other hand, develops software. Are you aware that computer gaming is now a multi-billion dollar industry? That's not even counting merchandising toys and shit. Meanwhile, Microsoft's primary business is making money. They have the resources to do computer games. Meanwhile people are demanding that their computers do all kinds of media shit so it kind of makes sense that Microsoft should move into media.

The two situations are not at all congruent. AT&T got into operating systems because they had to build the tools to do the job - the tools simply didn't exist before then. Microsoft got into entertainment software because it was a logical progression from what they were already doing. In fact you might say that the two companies' situations are direct opposites.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[ianezz]

What was a telephone company doing developing UNIX?

For running a typesetting system for patent applications?

No, really!.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[Cecil]

you act like they don't sell digital cameras...

They don't. Not in any meaningful way. They produce a few middle-of-the-road point and shoot cameras that don't even really compete on features or price with the rest of the market. The only thing they've got going for them is their name. Much like Minolta, they were busy putzing around and not even really paying attention to their film business while other people were busy jumping on the digital bandwagon. They could've either gone digital, or consolidated the film market after everyone else refocused on digital. They missed not one big opportunity, but two. Now they've got a big game of catch-up to play which they likely won't succeed at.

As far as digital goes, Pentax and a few others have the low-end market pretty well covered, Sony and Canon have near-complete domination of the high-end point and shoots, and Canon and Nikon have complete domination of the digital SLRs. Where will Kodak find a niche?

Canon is quickly establishing themselves as the king of digital photography, with a very strong showing in film cameras to boot.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is quite beyond reason, technically all computer programs have worked this way since the earliest days of VAX and such. The prior art on this particular patent is more than substantial. According to their patent, runtime linking to a library would be illegal without paying it up to grand daddy Kodak. I suggest to people in the US to get up in arms about Software Patents. Not only are they beyond stupidity, they are generalized and require no implementation. Software patents are dangerous, everyone is entitled to their work not being distributed and such, but Kodak did nothing here, they just bought a couple patents. They have not been harmed, because A) they didn't create anything like Java and distribute it, and B) this doesn't compete with them.
Oh btw, this affects EVERY computer language out there pratically now, so expect to see your favorite languages organizers asking for help from the EFF.

Remember there is very very little intellectual property in the computer industry, most of it is just property, not intellectual.

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[Alan Cox]

People forget but Kodak _were_ a Unix company at one point. Kodak interactive systems corporation. In fact if I remember rightly and ironically they sold that business to Sun to help Solaris x86 off the ground.

Another dying US corporation harms the efficiency of US businesa and harms other US businesses. Its no wonder the Chinese are winning in the technology battles.

Alan

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[mentin]

Or maybe because these jurors are from Rochester where Kodak is located and they hope Kodak will return the money it wins from Sun to the state.

There are two problems: first, Kodak would not return these money, they will instead cut local jobs and outsource

Second, I doubt federal court will uphold this decision (although it may temporary rise Kodak's stock and let several people do some money in between).

Re:WTF? Kodak?! The camera people?

[isdnip]

You're full of crap, and I do know of what I speak, being well connected to the phone industry.

The AT&T domestic backbone was for all intents and purposes entirely circuit-switched (TDM nowadays) until the past couple of years. The Incumbent Local Exchange Carriers are almost entirely circuit-switched. MCI and Sprint are circuit switched. The phone backbones use SONET transmission and TDM switches.

There are narrow examples of packet switching in the phone network. AT&T rolled out a Frame Relay-based system in the late 1980s, to compress the bandwidth on high-cost international links. Others have done similar things, for the same reason, with various vendors' technology. It's called "Digital Circuit Multiplication Equipment" (DCME). But domestic SONET bandwidth is so cheap that DCME isn't worth using, especially since DCME degrades call quality. And it's used below the switch layer, to make more TDM virtual channels.

There's a fair amount of ATM (asynchronous transfer mode) floating around too. Some LD carriers may use it, mostly as a multiplexing technique over SONET pipes. Verizon has started using Nortel's ATM switches in its own local networks, especially in New Jersey. But it's still a minority technology. AT&T (back when it owned Lucent, Bell Labs, etc.) was a major advocate of ATM technology, but hardly invented it in house by itself (more like the work a committee -- and I was on the committee, so I know why the camel's so humpy). AT&T also pushed hard for Frame Relay, largely to mix voice and data on DCME.

In today's LD world, Qwest's backbone is mostly VoIP, using Sonus switches. Ditto Wiltel, a fairly small player. AT&T has started to migrate to VoIP, as have Sprint and MCI, but it's not "over the Internet", it's just using IP headers as a multiplexing technique on fat dedicated circuits. Mainly because the VoIP switches are really cheap, and because Wall Street expects it. (The new switches do circuit switching too; the cost per minute differential is negligible. VoIP actually uses more bandwidth, regardless of what the propagandists claim, but fat TDM switch ports are a bit costlier.)

In the local world, VoIP is coming on strong in the form of PacketCable, again not over the public Internet. And of course Vonage and its imitators, who for all their bluster have a combined market share of far less than one percent. A little VoIP gets used here and there by other carriers. The Bells are experimenting with it, but it's a negligible share of their traffic. They're backward monopolists, but they also have reasonably high service-level standards, and they know how hard it is to do that with VoIP.

The signaling network is packet switched (Signaling System 7), but that's a whole story of its own.

Who's next, IBM?

[salimma]

Dating back from OS/360 and possibly before, user program "asks for help" from the OS so that they could run.

Oh wait, that's prior art =)

Re:Who's next, IBM?

[servoled]

(1) Anyone have a link to the patent?
(2) Software that needs to "ask for help" is way too broad.
(3) The judge who granted Kodak the win obviously doesn't know a thing about the software industry. The case is bogus.

Given the first statement it is clear that you have not read the patent in question, and therefore you have no idea what they are actually patenting other than the incredibly broad summary given in the article (i.e. "software that asks for help, statement (2)).

Therefore, I really don't see how you can condemn the Judge of the this case and Sun's lawyers for losing since you obviously don't have 95% of the important facts which are needed to make a fair decision.

Re:Who's next, IBM?

[Sigma 7]

Given the first statement it is clear that you have not read the patent in question, and therefore you have no idea what they are actually patenting other than the incredibly broad summary given in the article (i.e. "software that asks for help, statement (2)).

While I have only read the abstracts on the patent, it seems that the patents in question cover a mixture of Object-Oriented programming and Interprocess Communication. The only difference is that there is a method of identifing which applications (or application components) should modify a certain piece of data. It's hard to tell for sure (especially without legal training and a quick-glance on a dial-up connection).

The content of the patent does seem a bit familiar - I have seen something very similar used in Microsoft Windows API, where Microsoft Word requests another application to modify an image. Either Microsoft has found a method that somehow evades the patent, or Kodak is simply building a case law before they can take on MS.

At least I checked the abstract - most others are incorrectly assuming that Java is infringing on the bytecode interpreter.

Groklaw analysis

[LMCBoy]

PJ has an excellent analysis of this case and what software pantents mean for the industry over at Groklaw this morning.

Re:Groklaw analysis

[haxor.dk]

"PJ has an excellent analysis [groklaw.net] of this case and what software pantents mean for the industry [fatherryan.org] over at Groklaw [groklaw.net] this morning."

Oh, I can tell you what it means to the software industry, in a single sentence.

It means that ANYONE who dares to write a successful piece of software will be SCREWED as long as patents are allowed to be filed with ambiguous language and meanings that are open to interpretation.

That's, like, all interpreted byte-coded languages

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Python, most modern basics (GFA, QBasic, ...), Perl,...

Shall I write the check to Kodak or Eastman-Kodak sir? Cuz I have a script to hack on the server tonite.

sheesh...

Oh my God

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget Sun, this is batshit nuts. Bytecode interpreters have been common since Smalltalk in the 70s and are used by a simply huge number of common progrmaming languages.

Does anyone have the patent in question? Can this be appealed?

Re:Oh my God

[illuvata]

The patents are 5,206,951, 5,421,012 and 5,226,161

Re:Oh my God

[Wavicle]

why the hell did Sun's lawyers not pull CORBA out and show the judge that Kodak's patents were worthless?

Because it wasn't the Judge they had to convince. They had to convince a Rochester jury that the area's largest employer, Kodak, was full of it.

Re:Oh my God

[Steve1952]

The patents are continuations of applications originally filed in 1987, so prior art before 1987 is most relevant in this case. Try to find examples from 1986 or earlier.

Re:Oh my God

[BillyBlaze]

It kinda brings to light the outrageousness of the Patent Office's "let the courts sort it out" policy. Because convincing the courts means one lawyer trying to convince a jury of laypeople it's obvious, and another trying to confuse the shit out of them. These are "Internet Explorer is teh intarnet!!one" class people here, yet they are having the final say over just how fucked up the industry should become.

Re: Oh my God

[man_of_mr_e]

Actually, yes. OLE is covered by this system, and MS settled with Wang for over for $90 million in 1995 (two years before Wang sold the patents to Kodak).

My guess is that .NET may be immune from that earlier lawsuit. Also, .NET and Java work in subtly different, but quite possibly significantly important ways. The Sun patents are specific to two seperate applications working in unison.

MS's .NET (not counting remoting) is largely a single application that loads a runtime shared library, while Sun's java is a standalone virtual machine that communicates with a seperate application (yes, it can work otherwise, but that doesn't change that the current JVM does work as a "plurality" of programs as the patent claims).

Only the lawyers win...

[datastalker]

"Kodak praised the verdict and said it was part of an aggressive push to convert innovations -- both homegrown and purchased -- into real money. The company over the past several years has been issuing licenses, filing lawsuits, forming spinoff companies and finding other uses for its technologies."

It seems that today, companies don't produce products, they produce lawsuits, and that's how they get their money. How long can this continue?

Furthermore, since 1.06B is about 1/3 of Sun's cash on hand (here), what will that mean for Sun? It's 7% of their total value, so this can't be good for them.

In the end, it's only the lawyers who win.

Misleading title

[ChaseTec]

The article text says the dollar amount hasn't been decided yet and Sun is probably going to appeal anyway.

What will it take?!

[ShatteredDream]

First the Eolas lawsuit, now this. What is going to take for Bill Gates to wake up and say that suing OpenOffice developers isn't worth being able to lose $1.06B to a company that actually has the legal resources to wage a protracted war with Microsoft? If Sun loses this, the Microsoft had better be willing to settle in a very generous was or Kodak will go after them. $1.06B for Sun, since Microsoft has much, much more money it could just as easily be $5B from Microsoft.

This is all starting to become like nuclear weapons in and after the cold war. First it seemed like no big deal, hell it was even a requirement to be a big player to have nukes. Now all these little players are getting them, and Eolas and Kodak IMO are no different or better than the rogue states getting their own arsenals of nukes. Now the big boys are getting attacked so, what do they do? Disarm by pushing for the elimination of all software and business method patents, to keep these guys from having legal nukes to use against them, or do they just pray that not enough ankle biters will get enough patents to bankrupt them in independent and coordinated lawsuits?

Re:What will it take?!

[This is outrageous!]

What is going to take for Bill Gates to wake up and say that suing OpenOffice developers isn't worth being able to lose $1.06B to a company that actually has the legal resources to wage a protracted war with Microsoft?

Or: wake up and buy out Kodak so he'll be the one who does the suing? After all, Kodak themselves bought the patents from Wang.

Note, how once patents are for sale, the whole game shifts from rewarding creators to rewarding businessmen. (Same with copyrights, where Vivendi makes its money selling Charlie Parker records. Other legal regimes make it impossible to sell authors' rights.)

Kodak IMO are no different or better than the rogue states getting their own arsenals of nukes. Now the big boys are getting attacked so, what do they do?

They do the same -- only in international affairs it's not called buying out but regime change ;)

Did NOT win $1 billion

[FattyBoeBatty]

It was only decided that Sun had infringed on Kodak's patent. Kodak will return to court and they're initial claim of damages is $1 billion. So it's only a worst-case that Kodak would end up with that much, they'll most likely get less.

However, this still leaves that fact that, unless an appeal overturns this ruling, Sun will need to pay Kodak something for every java product out there. Wow is the patent office messed up... anybody think of some prior art out there?

-Fatty

My letter to Eastman Kodak Corporate HQ

[yeremein]

I am a software developer and amateur photography enthusiast, and I have recently learned about Kodak's patent infringement suit against Sun Microsystems. It is a shame that companies with failing business models consistently try to earn money through litigation rather than production and innovation. I realize that the proliferation of digital photography has caused hardship for the Eastman Kodak Company, but the use of this vague and overbroad patent against the software industry is unconscionable. As a direct result of this litigation, I will never again purchase another Kodak product, and I will encourage my family and colleagues to do the same. Malicious litigation is not an acceptable substitute for honest business.

What the hell?

[ottffssent]

I saw the headline, and do you know what my first reaction was? It wasn't "grrr. Stupid software patents". That came later. My very FIRST reaction was to look for the foot. Because obviously Kodak pursuing software patent claims is absurd. No foot, so I read the article.

I'm not a patent lawyer, and I have better things to do with my time than try to decipher the deliberately-obfuscated language of a patent the article doesn't bother to mention. However, I do know a little bit about computers, and that patent better be a damn sight more specific than "ask for help".

Because I'll bet system calls predate whatever patent Kodak's waving around.

I'm still looking for that foot, only now I want one to kick Kodak in the head.

Years of appeals ahead

[kansas1051]

Although I know its offical /. policy that everyone should run around in circles yelling its the end of the world everytime a software patent is infringed, this particular dispute is far from over and probably faces 5+ years of appeals before any money changes hands or any technology is changed or restricted.

First, after damages are decided, Sun will move with JNOV (asking the judge to set aside the verdict because there was insufficent evidence to support to verdict). There is probably a 10% probability of this happening in any given case, even more when there is alot of money at risk.

Second, Sun will appeal to the Federal Circuit, which usually overturnes 60% of district court decisions because district courts usually dont know anything about technology and know even less about patent law.

So, IMHO, its too early to start running around in circles over this decision, at least until the Federal Circuit affirms.

Re:Years of appeals ahead

[Ruie]

Although I know its offical /. policy that everyone should run around in circles yelling its the end of the world everytime a software patent is infringed, this particular dispute is far from over and probably faces 5+ years of appeals before any money changes hands or any technology is changed or restricted.

I don't know about you, but for me it is upsetting enough that any court upheld this patent at all. So what that appeals can go for another 5 years ? What small business can afford that ?

Re:Kodak vs. Java

[ackthpt]

Unbelievable. I'm not completely opposed to software patents but this sure is a great example against them.

Makes me wonder about PCode, back in the day, ages ago when we compiled UCSD Pascal down to pcode and ran it on what amounted to a virtual machine. That was like 1980.

Where to send your letter

[yeremein]

Feel free to use/adapt my letter (in the parent post). Here's where to send your letter:

Eastman Kodak Company
Attn: Corporate Information
343 State Street
Rochester, New York 14650

There are probably other reasons to boycott Kodak besides the fact that they pulled a SCRambus--such as their offshoring.

Grand Jury

[panurge]

It's about time we took "trial by peers" seriously. How many people on that jury could even set the time on a VCR?

Software parents will likely continue like this while being technically literate is a negative for being a judge, and being literate in anything is likely to have you removed from a jury. It's high time that juries in specialist trials were recruited from (perhaps retired) people with skills from the appropriate areas - yes, and paid - so that the arguments could be properly understood.

Re:Patent #'s

[tricorn]

5,206,951, 5,226,161, and 5,421,012, filed in 1991, 1992 and 1993 respectively. The second one they've "disclaimed" the portion of the term after April 27, 2010.

I don't see how Smalltalk isn't direct prior art for this, at least as it would apply to Java. These are, I believe, a good example of bad software patents that are becoming more and more common. You can't really figure out what exactly they're claiming, you have no idea what might infringe on it, it's so vague that you can't figure out what prior art might invalidate it, and once you do figure it out, you say "you can patent that?". It's like patenting "Ok, take an automobile, turn right and go around the block THREE times, not just TWO times like everyone has done in the past, THEN turn right on red without waiting for pedestrians." And then claiming that airplanes landing between 2AM and 3AM at airports without lights infringes on it, since they never wait for pedestrians, and they have a red light on the wing.

What hangs on a wall, is green, and whistles?
I give up. What hangs on a wall, is green, and whistles?
A HERRING!
A herring? It doesn't hang on a wall!
Well, you can put in a nail and hang it.
Ok, but it isn't green!
You can paint it green.
Ok, but whistles?
Oh, I just put that in to make it hard!

Links to the relevant patents

[jfengel]

I always prefer to get my info from primary sources rather than some newspaper's rendition, so here are the actual patents involved:

Patent 5,206,951: Integration of data between typed objects by mutual, direct invocation between object managers corresponding to object types

Patent 5,421,012: Multitasking computer system for integrating the operation of different application programs which manipulate data objects of different types

Patent 5,226,161: Integration of data between typed data structures by mutual direct invocation between data managers corresponding to data types

Thanks to Artur Biesiadowski, who orignally posted these at Java Lobby.

I haven't had a chance to read them in detail yet; they're slow reading. '012 seems to be the broadest, and it's very, very long. They seem actually to patent object-oriented programming, but they reference the Smalltalk documentation so presumably they're patenting some enhancement. I've been unable to determine what that enhancement is over Smalltalk, so I can't say if Java infringes on it or not.

A note on reading patents: the title is worthless, so please don't write about "I did X in 1967" based solely on the title. The abstract is hardly better, though my quick scan of these indicates that the abstract does actually do a good job of summarizing. The only thing with legal force is the claims, but they're written in a specialized patent language that takes a bit of practice to interpret.

You can usually learn the most from reading the description section, with background and summary, which has less legal force than the claims but is written in something closer to plain English (or at least computer-ese, which you probably speak if you're reading /.)

It's not about bytecode, is it?

[jeti]

As far as I can make out, the patents are about ORBs (object request brokers) in middleware.
And the patents were filed just a few months before CORBA 1.0 was released.

So I think the lawsuit is not about the use of bytecode interpreters/compilers. It is about the middleware mechanisms provided by Java.

Tell Kodak what you feel

[TomRitchford]

Their contact form

I told them that I'd never buy another Kodak product again as long as I live... and I'm dead serious about it.

C'est la merde!

[roman_mir]

Ok, so my first thought was like: oh, shit! Shit shit shit sheeeeet! What the fuck? Fuckity fuckity-fucking fuck!

But then I thought: Ok, keep it together, for f..ck sake!

Ok and now I am like again: arrghh FUCK!

I don't know, I just want to see that little piece of shit Kodak in ruins, that's what I want to see.

And it has nothing to do with Sun or Java, it's everything. I am so fucking tired of this fucked up life and little scum sucking shit eating pieces of trash that live on this planet who run 'businesses' like kodak.

Since when is kodak a software company? They are not. They bought this patent from another company.

On the other hand the court that made this decision must consist of the dumbest assholes ever. Ever. Unfucking believable.

---

Ok, now that I vented. Such a rulling was foreseen by many, there is a reason why IBM has something like a million pattents in their war chest, including a patent for using a crapper.

Obviously now companies started using software patents in the worst way possible - attempting to destroy entire industries.

What will Sun do now with Java? I don't know, they must appeal and hopefully take it to the highest court and get this decision overturned and hopefully they will achieve a reform of the software pattenting, as in prove it to be detrimental to the economy in principle and to any company in particular. Obviously a smaller company would just go under, this war has to be fought by gigantic companies like Sun, IBM or even Microsoft. How many patents can Microsoft fight off, especially if the attacker is NOT a software vendor. How do you fight a non software vendor? They don't care about software in principle, I suppose Kodak would WANT all software to be gone. After all, all they need is chemicals to run their shop.

On the other hand I don't see IBM or MS helping Sun in this battle, they are compatitors after all. But Java will suffer enormously and so may .NET, Perl, PHP, Python, VB, and C/C++ debuggers, aren't many of them VMs? Lisp, ML, Scheme, Prolog, and more. So what is going to happen, all VMs will have to pay royalty to Kodak?

This is a serious issue, I think this has to be the most serious issue that hit software industry ever, patents I mean.

Software should not be patentable. Copyrights are fine and dandy but patents are something else all together. Patents of ideas are much worse than copyrights of implementations. Software patents will without any doubt ruin software industry and the economies that allow software patents will pay a heavy price. I think it is time to support EFF more than ever. I think we need to see a wide range of law suits against Kodak one way or another and try and get the court to overthrow software patents.

And I think that Freeing Java is becoming more important than ever for the [Java] platform.

Software Patents are Unreadable!

[Chris Colohan]

I am a PhD student in computer science at Carnegie Mellon. I write C++ code every day. I know at least 7 programming languages well enough to program in them professionally. For my research I design new computer hardware, compilers, database systems, and operating systems. I have helped write (non-software) patents. ...and I'll be damned if I can fully understand the text of most patents, including the ones cited in this article. How in the world is a software developer supposed to avoid infringing on patents if they can't _understand_ them? I don't know of any school which includes a course on "reading patent legaleese" in their computer science programs.

I have 12 years of post-high-school education in Computer Science. I have no idea how to write a non-trivial program that I am relatively sure does not infringe on any patent. I don't know anyone who does. Doesn't this seem absurd?

Re:Software Patents are Unreadable!

[Anonymous Coward]

I happen to be a professional software engineer working for a large, well known company. Having had a class in how to read patents wouldn't have done much good, since we have standing orders from the highest levels of the company to never, ever read any patent that might possibly be related to anything the company does. The only thing we're allowed to do related to a patent is to write up proposals for new ones and hand them off to the lawyers. There's just too much liability otherwise.

Re:Oh man, Sun fsck up !!

[Jon_E]

$260M in cash for their software business .. the hardware side was pretty much dead by that point anyhow .. wang's only major presence was in the public sector (gov't and such) and i believe sun had competing technology so that kind of buyout didn't make that much sense back then (imo)

on a side note .. i believe the origin of this idea in software is predated back to the 60's in LISP, so while IANAL i believe one could argue prior art and thus the invalidity of the wang software patent (s/w patents seem pointless to me anyhow - like recipe patents) .. i believe there's a large number of s/w patents that have been and continue to be awarded in large part due to the lack of due diligence from patent attorneys, hence we may see a new glut of lawsuits from the failing institutions looking for a quick cash boost

Re:Oh my God, they've patented "bridges"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll answer some of these, if you don't mind.

Perhaps you can explain how the selective movement of data from based upon certain criteria can be solved as a mathematical problem. You can use mathematical forumlas to determine if a piece of data should be moved, but those formulas will not tell you where to find the data, how to create the connection to the remote computer, etc...

Most software source code builds upon prewritten software libraries. While I may write a line of code that says (for example) "Variable webpage = HttpReturn('http://slashdot.org')", there is a library that knows how to do what you want. While your code doesn't explain mathematically what happens in the background, the library (or libraries it is built upon) does. This is similar to writing a math function "y = f(x)". You may not know how f(x) works, that f(x) = 2x + 3, but it is mathematical nonetheless.

I made a previous reply to your original post dealing with this same issue.

Perhaps you can tell me this then, assuming you were to obtain the discussed forumla, could you then simply enter that mathematical formula into a computer and have it function in the same way as the amazon one-click shopping patent, complete with credit card processing, inventory and shipping management?

Building on what I said above, as long as the "computer" (using the term loosely) has the functionality and libraries on which the mathematical formula of Amazon's code depends, then absolutely yes it would function the same. But, then again, the best and most appropriate library functions for Amazon's code are built into your web browser... it behaves as the computer for that code.

Now, if you want to go lower level, you could feasibly extract all of the web browser's code, all of the operating system's code, and all logical hardware functions into a logical math equation. Combining these with Amazon's code would give you a single, gigantic math formula on which Amazon runs.

You would have many input variables, such as from the mouse and keyboard ports, the ethernet or phone line providing Internet access, and internal devices such as a system clock and feedback from hardware controllers. You would also have many output variables, such as output to your monitor, feedback to the ethernet or phone line, and output to other hardware controllers.

So long as all variables are connected properly to their hardware signals, Amazon's one-click software would behave EXACTLY as expected.