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FreeBSD 5.3-BETA7 Released; 5.3-RELEASE Soon

Posted by timothy on from the film-at-11-back-to-you-in-new-york dept.

hugo_pt writes "The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is proud to announce the availability of FreeBSD 5.3-BETA7. This is the seventh and final BETA of the 5.3 release cycle. Fixes and enhancements made since BETA6: fix timekeeping on sparc64 and alpha that would result in the day of the week being stored incorrectly in NVRAM; add support to the fxp driver for the ICH6 chipset; fix the panic on detach problem with USB hubs; import BIND 9.3.0, this completely replaces the old BIND 8.x nameserver in the base system; fix panic when allocating swap on a busy system; fix loader crash when using the 'lsdev' command.... You can read the release announcement, and download the beta ISO." (ISO 1, ISO 2)

76 comments

  1. Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am a long time Slackware Linux fan, and I have been looking extensively at FreeBSD. I wish to try FreeBSD, and I would like some of my newer supported devices (wireless ones, to be more precise), to be supported. Is it time to take the *BSD plunge? Does FreeBSD support a large enough database of hardware to give a try, even with strange and obscure devices?

    1. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by the+real+darkskye · · Score: 5, Informative

      FreeBSD 5.3 supports Project Evil, ala NDIS support.
      It can take binary windows drivers for a majority of networking hardware and use them to run the device.

      Information on Project Evil can be found at http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ndis&apro pos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.0-current&format =html

      --
      Music is everybody's possession.
      It's only publishers who think that people own it.
      Fuck Beta
      ~John Lenno
    2. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by JQuick · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Newer supported devices" is uselessly vague, as you are aware. Adding the words "wireless one" is more detailed, but not as you state, "more precise".

      Wireless could still mean almost anything. IRDA, 802.11*, bluetooth, heck you might be talking about anything from a mouse or a keyboard to an interface to an amateur packet radio band (via short wave). As a result, though I would like to provide an answer, I cannot. I can only make it easier for you to find it on your own.

      FreeBSD supports a wide range of devices. Note however that FreeBSD strive for quality over quantity, and that your particular hardware may not be well supported yet, if supported at all. You should look at the hardware support page for the release you want to run. (version and host architecture)

      For FreeeBSD 5.x on intel that page is:

      http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes/5-STABLE/hardwar e/ i386/index.html

      It list all the hardware specific release notes for the i386 architecture, including motherboard, processors, and devices.

      The device page covering everything from mice to raid controllers is:
      http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes/5-STABLE/hard ware/ i386/support.html

      Does it support strange and obscure devices?
      Yes.
      Does it support your strange and obscure device?
      I don't know, take a look and see. Good luck, I hope you give it a try. It's a very nice environment.

    3. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The FreeBSD hardware support lists are not always particularly accurate. I own a wireless card and a sound card, neither of which is listed as being supported by the hardware list, but both listed by the drivers' man pages (and both work). If you can't find the device you're looking for in the hardware list, take a look at the man pages of similar devices (linked to from the hardware compatibility list pages).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by VVelox · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is also a NDIS wrapper in 5.x. This allows NDIS drivers from windows to be used. Here are the links to the man pages. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ndis&apro pos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.0-current&format =html http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ndiscvt&s ektion=8&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.0-current

    5. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by simonln · · Score: 4, Informative
      The FreeBSD hardware support lists are not always particularly accurate. I own a wireless card and a sound card, neither of which is listed as being supported by the hardware list, but both listed by the drivers' man pages (and both work).

      Actually that has changed with FreeBSD 5.3. Now (most of) the Hardware Notes are generated from the manual pages, so the Hardware Notes for FreeBSD 5.3 should be much more accurate then for previous releases.

      The i386 Hardware Notes for 5.3(-BETA) can be found at http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes/5-STABLE/hardware/ i386/article.html

    6. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux is having this possibility for ages. See sourceforgedotnet

    7. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, I don't mean to be rude but this is getting really old. Would you pleeeeeease stop asking the same question that has been answered time and time again. Both Linux and BSD are UNIX-like operating systems, what do you expect them to be like? What do you expect the difference to be? If your questions actually is sincere then all I'm going to say is that they're basically the same, If you know one you know them all. If you're concerned about hardware support the they have a list of supported devices y'know (look it up).

      It's questions like these makes Slashdot seem like a perpetual loop of a bad commercial. I don't understand why advocates fall over themselves to answer the same question over and over, and over again.

    8. Re:Close to FreeBSD 5.3 by epohs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is there a list of 'project evil' supported cards perchance?

  2. Keep in mind by agent+dero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    remember that 5.3 has a good chance of becoming -STABLE (by good chance, I am really making an assumption based on how 5.2 has progressed, etc)

    FreeBSD is making good progress in SMP, and a lot more backend stuff than is noticable to most. I'm looking forward to running a 5-STABLE branch on my main (dual Xeon) server.

    Thanks guys :)

    --
    Error 407 - No creative sig found
    1. Re:Keep in mind by torstenvl · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I must admit I've bought quite a bit of FUD about how 5.x sucks and so on, but that fear has been somewhat mitigated by learning that the early 4.x series sucked pretty bad too, and 4.x now has a reputation for being one of the best FreeBSD series ever. I'm interested to see where this will go.

    2. Re:Keep in mind by devphaeton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So far in my experience, i do not see any ensuckulation for 5.x.... Granted, i'm not an overly experienced FreeBSD user, though.

      But for doing the usual things on the most usual hardware (like probably 90% of the BSD and Linux users would) it seems to be quite a pleasant and well-done computing experience, IMHO...

      If there are issues with 5.x, either i'm not doing the things that cause them, or i'm oblivious to them, because i'm seriously considering wiping my Debian installation from my main workstation when 5.3 is officially released.

      The only issues i've ever had with FreeBSD in the past is that i'm wined and dined with some of the more `current' or special features that are easily available in Linux- Things in the past like AA fonts for X11, games like quakeforge (kinda buggy on fbsd), mozilla-firebird, vmware, libSDL, etc... No effort to make it go, just apt-get install it and it works.

      Some of these things are now available in FreeBSD, and some of the applications in Ports have caught up in version numbers, and as for the rest, i probably just need to put a little more effort into making it work ;)

      Linux has always been good to me, i have no complaints or regrets about my years of running Slackware and Debian, but FreeBSD just seems so much more *elegant* in a lot of ways. The installation, the administration, the documentation, the overall smoothness...

      Well, that and the Linux Zealotry is getting out of hand. Every camp has their zealots, but some of the latest Linux ones (we all know who) are really making it hard for me to keep the faith. I know i shouldn't pay any attention to them, and it's just a vocal minority, but it's hard to remember these things when everywhere you look on the web (or slashdot, heaven forbid!) there is all this half-cocked stupidity in your face. The lack of zealotry and evangelism is refreshing when talking to the folks and working with apps and documentation in the BSD camps. It's good to set the politics aside and just focus on the geek factor and neatness of tinkering on a UNIX-like system.

      My $0.02 + Sales Tax.

      --


      do() || do_not(); // try();
    3. Re:Keep in mind by Homology · · Score: 4, Informative
      The only issues i've ever had with FreeBSD in the past is that i'm wined and dined with some of the more `current' or special features that are easily available in Linux- Things in the past like AA fonts for X11, games like quakeforge (kinda buggy on fbsd), mozilla-firebird, vmware, libSDL, etc... No effort to make it go, just apt-get install it and it works.

      All of the *BSD has this, with the exception that OpenBSD does not accept non-free binary drivers.

      I'm typing this on an older laptop (PII 30MHz) with XFCE4 as desktop, using mozilla-firebird as web-browser. And yes, the AA actually works fine (this is part of XFree86).

      Actually, I'm surprised that so many are not aware that most applications used on Linux works just fine on any *BSD.

    4. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > If this sorry piece of crap is what is to become the new STABLE I'm jumping ship. OTOH DragonFlyBSD is making progress very fast and the added value that is free of arrogant assholes (Poul-Henning Kamp and Dag-Erling Smograv).

      Instead, we get arrogant assholes like you?

      (btw, I like what Matt and friends are doing, nothing wrong with them, but the attitude some of their fans seem to have is just sad)

      > Joseph, FreeBSD user since the 2.2.8 days.

      Bart, FreeBSD user since the 2.0 days... your point being?

    5. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead, we get arrogant assholes like you?

      Bosko, is that you? There's a big difference between making a comment on /. and driving developers away from FreeBSD (like phk@ and des@ have done), don't you think?

      (btw, I like what Matt and friends are doing, nothing wrong with them, but the attitude some of their fans seem to have is just sad)

      Excuse me?
    6. Re:Keep in mind by devphaeton · · Score: 4, Funny

      Instead, we get arrogant assholes like you?

      Those are slated for inclusion into the Ports distribution in 5.4.

      --


      do() || do_not(); // try();
    7. Re:Keep in mind by molnarcs · · Score: 4, Interesting
      What a silly troll. This is a new kind: now instead of "BSD is dying" ones we got "PHK and DES is an asshole" trolls. I saw a similar messag in the NetBSD RC2 announcment.

      I've been reading current mailing list for the past 2 months quite regularly, and my impression of both devs is a positive one. DES goes sometimes crazy, but disagreements are resolved in an open and honest manner - read: by providing pro and con arguments - (even though they sometimes border on flamewars), but that's not a problem I think. PHK's posts usually carry an air of authority, but that's also fine, and he makes a lot of contributions. (Linus has this kind of authority as well). Otherwise, both DES and PHK seemed to be quite helpful with current users, at least since I've been reading the list. Of course, you probably could come up with examples to the contrary, but that doesn't prove that they are not nice people, it only proves that they are human.

      As to Matt Dillon: the reason for DragonFly is technical. He had different ideas about the direction 5.x should take than the rest of the project. Since more ppl disagreed w/ him than agreed w/ him, he left. Fair enough. On his way out, he stepped on some developer's toes, and some developers stepped on his toes, and that is also normal I think.

      What isn't normal is that some people cannot switch to another OS without being an asshole. I mean, who is this AC? A DragonFly zealot? What would someone gain from such comments? Fewer people would use FreeBSD? And why is this good for AC? I mean, it is FREE software, no one is forced to use it. Or is his heart bleeding for poor Matt Dillon because of what that evil PHK and DES did to him, so he tries to discredit them? Does he have a (platonic) relationship with Matt? (like some users have with Linus - no offense). This is sick.

    8. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As to Matt Dillon: the reason for DragonFly is technical. He had different ideas about the direction 5.x should take than the rest of the project. Since more ppl disagreed w/ him than agreed w/ him, he left.

      He never left, he was unfairly kicked out

      Why weren't Poul and Erlang kicked as well? Their flame/conversation ratio is as high or higher than Matt's.

    9. Re:Keep in mind by molnarcs · · Score: 3, Interesting
      He never left, he was unfairly kicked out Oh, I see. Sorry, my mistake. But to bring this up NOW??? And Greg Lehey's comment seems quite reasonable.

      If DragonFly will be that cool as the developers claim it will, I would switch. Presently I am a 'satisfied customer' of FreeBSD 5.3Beta7 :)) But only time will tell which project is better on the long run. Dragonfly's focus on code maintainability can very well pay off in the future in contrast to the complexity of code in 5.x But we don't know what plans FreeBSD devs have for 6-current. I think for now it would only be a test-bed for 5.x releases (hammering out problems with ULE scheduler - which works very nicely for me since 5.1 times - for instance). It can even adapt DragonFly's stuff if it proves to be successful, it can come up with an entirely different model, or it can continue the current trend (which seems to be quite successful: M:N threading, ULE scheduler, very fast network stack, etc..).

      Point is: I don't think Matt or anyone needs anonymous supporters trolling slashdot and bitching about developers in the "other" project. Such behaviour is not only stupid, but doesn't do any good, and it even reflects badly on DragonFly (or at least its userbase).

    10. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > Bosko, is that you?

      If you'd bother to click on any of the links in this or my previous post, you can see that I'm not Bosko, nor am I a member of the core team. I have been involved with the project for a long time however, mopstly as user and tester, but also with a bit of development (enough to get a small mentioning in the credits somewhere anyway).

      > There's a big difference between making a comment on /. and driving developers away from FreeBSD (like phk@ and des@ have done), don't you think?

      Disagreement is what people left over. You can take that personally, that is a very stuupid way to go tho (from both sides).

      If you want to see what this kind of attitude that comes through in your last 2 posts leads to, go ask Theo de Raadt what he thinks of Frank van der Linden or the other way around. It is pointless and stupid, that was all I was trying to point out.

      If you feel like picking sides because of personality.. I suggest you consider that there are others who do so as well. I rather have a few arrogant developers who know what they are doing then arrogant peopel filling the mailling lists and not answering questions. Sadly enough that is soemthing you will find at least to some extent on any of the bsd related lists as well as on the linux list. OpenBSD and Dragonfly have a much higher then average amount of it (besides good people).

      It is that what keeps away peopel from using it a lot more then arrogant developers.

      But well, I guess the first line of your post says it all. You don't are about arguments, you don't care abotu what works, you care about the person. Caring for people seems important to me, but has nothign to do with such a project.

    11. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > He never left, he was unfairly kicked out

      His commit access was removed. THe 'unfairly' part is quite open for debate.

      > Why weren't Poul and Erlang kicked as well? Their flame/conversation ratio is as high or higher than Matt's.

      Why was what Matt did not accepted while what some others did was? Because there is a huge difference between discussing, flaming and whining on one side, and trying to get your way regardless on the other side. Personally, I think Matt had technically valid concerns, but him going to try them with his own project instead of trying to force them onto a project he was a part of is really a better idea in this case, and it is unfortunate that he didn't come to that conclusion before this happened.

      Now maybe you should start putting your time into developing the system you so enthousiastically support instead of making the project look bad with your attempts at discredditing people, you might actually contribute to something, possibly maybe...

    12. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why was what Matt did not accepted while what some others did was? Because there is a huge difference between discussing, flaming and whining on one side, and trying to get your way regardless on the other side.

      With the exception of Julian Elischer, all the other committers sided with John Baldwin in the 3 ocasions that he vetoed Matt's contributions. John knew back then, and does today, that his API design is wrong and cannot be finished by a single person.

      Now maybe you should start putting your time into developing the system you so enthousiastically support instead of making the project look bad with your attempts at discredditing people, you might actually contribute to something, possibly maybe...

      You are making the wrong assumption that I've never contributed to FreeBSD. Au contraire, I did, a lot, but I no longer do because of what happened to Matt and the asshole-ic attitude of some of their people. Poul and Erlang have a huge history of inter-camp flamage, against NetBSD in the early '90s, then OpenBSD, and now DragonFly. Do you see a pattern here?

    13. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you'd bother to click on any of the links in this or my previous post, you can see that I'm not Bosko, nor am I a member of the core team.

      My bad, I thought you'd get the joke. When the first trolling started in the FreeBSD lists Bosko replied saying "billh, is that you?".

      Disagreement is what people left over. You can take that personally, that is a very stuupid way to go tho (from both sides).

      I know several people who left because they were alienated by phk@. One SGI guy who wanted to port XFS to FreeBSD, for example. And there are others. The OpenBSD guys can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but that's what everybody expects from them. FreeBSD, OTOH, plays the nice guy and then one of their vocal memebers stabs you in the back. That's how it works.

      Sadly enough that is soemthing you will find at least to some extent on any of the bsd related lists as well as on the linux list. OpenBSD and Dragonfly have a much higher then average amount of it (besides good people).

      Sorry but that's bullshit. People get flamed on the OpenBSD lists all the time, yes, but on the DragonFlyBSD lists? I don't think so. I'm yet to see flames like the one that have plagued cvs-all@ and current@ for years on FreeBSD.

      Perhaps how the people who build the system are is not important to you, it is for me. I frankly won't touch anything made by Poul-Henning or Erlang Smorgrav with a ten foot pole.

    14. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Greg Lehey's comment seems quite reasonable.

      No, it's utter bullshit.

      It can even adapt DragonFly's stuff if it proves to be successful

      Sure, and hell is freezing over. With egos the size of Texas you'll never see that happen. Look at what has happened to Jeffrey Hsu's MP networking code.

      Point is: I don't think Matt or anyone needs anonymous supporters trolling slashdot and bitching about developers in the "other" project.

      Oh, but DragonFly is not the only alternative. You could be using NetBSD too, or even Linux if you don't mind a bigger change. That's hardly the point. The point is, FreeBSD developers have been flaming other camps since the very begining. They had huge flames with Chris Demetriou (NetBSD) in the early '90s, then they flamed Theo to death, and now it's time for Matt to get his share of flames. The other 3 BSDs don't seem to have this beligerant attitude, not even the OpenBSD guys.

      If FreeBSD works for you, fine, I found the bugs annoying enough to switch already, and there are several people which I'd rather never to have to deal with, some of them being: Poul-Henning Kamp, Erlang Smorgrav, Bosko Milekic, Tom Rhodes, Bill Fumerola and some others I forget now.

    15. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > With the exception of Julian Elischer, all the other committers sided with John Baldwin in the 3 ocasions that he vetoed Matt's contributions. John knew back then, and does today, that his API design is wrong and cannot be finished by a single person.

      Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. The simple issue is that the majority isn't always right. If you believe you are right, people don't agree with you, and you can't live wtih that, then going to do your thing somewhere else is usually a good option.

      Who was right is something only time will tell really.

      > You are making the wrong assumption that I've never contributed to FreeBSD.

      No I did not. I made the assumption that your current attitude is not helping anyone, including Matt and people.

      > Au contraire, I did, a lot, but I no longer do because of what happened to Matt and the asshole-ic attitude of some of their people. Poul and Erlang have a huge history of inter-camp flamage, against NetBSD in the early '90s, then OpenBSD, and now DragonFly. Do you see a pattern here?

      When I look for infighting I see a lot of it going on still between NetBSD and OpenBSD. Knowing Frank in person, and having met THeo on one occation, I can quite see why, and it requires no action whatsoever from Poul and Erlang (I don't say they didn't add to it, just that without them it would still have happened)

      I also see more attitude of infighting in your posts then I ever noticed in their comments, and you add to that by going after the person and not the issue.

    16. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > Sorry but that's bullshit. People get flamed on the OpenBSD lists all the time, yes, but on the DragonFlyBSD lists? I don't think so. I'm yet to see flames like the one that have plagued cvs-all@ and current@ for years on FreeBSD.

      Its not just people getting flamed, it is a general 'everything that is not us sucks, we have the only true way to perfection' attitude.

      > Perhaps how the people who build the system are is not important to you, it is for me. I frankly won't touch anything made by Poul-Henning or Erlang Smorgrav with a ten foot pole.

      Who did what is relevant to me, but if I like the person behoind something is not. It is also not an argument for deciding what is better.

    17. Re:Keep in mind by Baki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have tried out 5.3 beta7 on my thinkpad (r50) laptop and I was very impressed. On my desktop I run linux latest 2.6 kernel (gentoo), and a true suspend and resume (acpi S3) does not work at all. ACPI S4 (hibernation) with software-suspend2 patches does not resume properly. However in this FBSD release it works flawlessly, even when running X (xorg 6.7), with connected internal laptop mouse and usb mouse. Everything just works without tweaking and patching: set correct options in /etc/rc.conf, that's all.

      I have really pounded the installation by installing ports while playing DVD's and xdiv files using mplayer and ogle on the background, using emacs for newsgroup reading: everything runs smoothly, sound just works (snd_ich module).

      The complete install of OS and ports (after cvsup) and rebuilding world and kernel was really painless. It took only a few hours in total to get a "cpu optimized" install similar to gentoo.

      If it were not for vmware I would move my desktop immediately to FBSD 5.3. It's ease of use from an admin perspective is unmatched by anything I know.

    18. Re:Keep in mind by devphaeton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, I'm surprised that so many are not aware that most applications used on Linux works just fine on any *BSD.

      Exactly. I was just naive or perhaps not motivated enough to get something like that to work. I didn't even try. But in this case i'm seeing how very simple it is, and in some cases more simple (or at least more logical) than what it was on linux.

      (silly me, i know)

      I'm really starting to think that this will be the turning point for me though. My main workstation is Debian (sid) and my secondary machine is FreeBSD 4.9... but i think after the official release of 5.3 my main will be Fbsd and my secondary will be linux.

      --


      do() || do_not(); // try();
    19. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its not just people getting flamed, it is a general 'everything that is not us sucks, we have the only true way to perfection' attitude.

      That's simply not true. The DF developers are always interested in what other people are doing, and will import code from other camps if it's useful for them (e.g. pf). Perhaps you're thinking of FreeBSD, where the NIH syndrome is rampant.

      Who did what is relevant to me, but if I like the person behoind something is not. It is also not an argument for deciding what is better.

      It is important. People like John Baldwin and Poul-Henning won't let anybody else touch their code. Now keep in mind that they maintain critical areas of the system, the former does all kinds of SMP related work and the latter has pushed his GEOM ego trip into the tree. What will happen when Poul gets bored of it? Now you see how important is the person behind the code. Ironically, this has happened in the past and, when Dyson left, Matt took his place and learned the VM system inside out. FreeBSD no longer has someone as good as Matt, though. And it shows, the quality of the 5.x series is mediocre. 4.x is abolutely rock solid, 5.x is nowhere near that. So yes, the people behind the code ultimately influence how it turns out. And I'm not only talking of the technical level.

      That other guy, Erlang, is almost harmless since all he does is the PAM mess and usually stays away from other parts of the system. He loves a good flamefest, though, even against the danish committers.

    20. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      Heh.. you are really good at makign the exact point you are trying to deny you know?

      See, all 7your post comes down to is 'the others suck, not us', which is the exact thing I was pointing at.

      I'm not even going to answer nost of your post, you are entitled to your opinion, and whatever you think is important for your choices. Just stop the badmouthing other people.

      There is one thing that does ask for an answer however:

      > Ironically, this has happened in the past and, when Dyson left, Matt took his place and learned the VM system inside out. FreeBSD no longer has someone as good as Matt, though. And it shows, the quality of the 5.x series is mediocre. 4.x is abolutely rock solid, 5.x is nowhere near that.

      For a user and administrator, 5.x has not been anywhere near as troublesome as early 4.x and 3.x releases. If I'd follow your suggestion then the only conclusion I can come to is that the current people are doing a better job.

    21. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a user and administrator, 5.x has not been anywhere near as troublesome as early 4.x and 3.x releases. If I'd follow your suggestion then the only conclusion I can come to is that the current people are doing a better job.

      All the world is not you. Why is it that *every* single time without fail that a person has a problem on the freebsd lists, about half a dozen people chime in with "oh it works very nicely here", as if they're contributing something profound.

      Look, just read the damn mailing lists. They're literally full of problems. They've had 7 betas and still have data corruption and crashing problems. Nobody knows what's wrong with the scheduler or how to fix it even after months of trying. *Read the mailing lists*. Or do you have your head stuck in the sand?

    22. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > All the world is not you.

      I never said or assumed so.

      > Why is it that *every* single time without fail that a person has a problem on the freebsd lists, about half a dozen people chime in with "oh it works very nicely here", as if they're contributing something profound.

      That is not helpfull indeed, yet its far from unique for the fbsd lists. It does go to show tho that for most people, the current versions do not cause many problems.

      > Look, just read the damn mailing lists. They're literally full of problems.

      Have been reading them for almost a decade, still reading them. THe amoung of problems for 5.x is not exceptional when compared to especially 3.x

      > They've had 7 betas and still have data corruption and crashing problems. Nobody knows what's wrong with the scheduler or how to fix it even after months of trying. *Read the mailing lists*. Or do you have your head stuck in the sand?

      Yes, and so far they didn't call it stable for a reason.

      But it seems you simply do not understand what I am trying to tell you. Let me be very clear and explicit about it.

      There is an article about beta 7 of FreeBSD 5.3
      All YOU have to contribute to the discussion is how the FreeBSD team sucks, how their work sucks and that DragonflyBSD is THE THING.

      First of all, what the fuck does that havce to do with FreeBSD beta 7?

      You really don't see how your posts are:
      1. not contributing to anything.
      2. make you look like a fanatical idiot
      3. make people stay away from the exact thing you are trying to promote.

      If you believe that what Matt and his peopel are doing is so much better, why do you have this constant urge to kick down others? you really don't need it in that situation, you can simply concentrate on being better.

      What you need to learn is a little respect for people and their work, regardless of if you agree with them.

    23. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The AC that replied to you wasn't me. I should be using my account but the last time I said something bad about FreeBSD my server was packeted for 8 hours straight, so I'll remain AC.

      That is not helpfull indeed, yet its far from unique for the fbsd lists. It does go to show tho that for most people, the current versions do not cause many problems.

      As you've been reading the lists for a while you'll remember what a fiasco 4.0-RELEASE was, with its incredibly broken ATA drivers. However, it was fixed very fast. We're already at 5.3, 5.3 fer Christs sake, and there are bugs in there that have been known for almost a year. The preemption bug cannot be fixed. It's a design flaw, but you'll never see jhb@ admit it.

      Have been reading them for almost a decade, still reading them. THe amoung of problems for 5.x is not exceptional when compared to especially 3.x

      3.0 brought in some radical changes in the VM subsystem, yes. That's why I tend to prefer NetBSD's development model. They're about to release 2.0 now, and it's darn clean code that actually works (save for a couple of minor bugs in the umass system, but nothing serious).

      There is an article about beta 7 of FreeBSD 5.3 All YOU have to contribute to the discussion is how the FreeBSD team sucks, how their work sucks and that DragonflyBSD is THE THING.

      No, read my posts again (and you were replying to another person, btw). I'm not saying DF is the shit. In fact, Matt had just to revert the stable brank to 3 weeks ago due to some serious show stoppers in the new VFS code.

      What gets on my nerves though, is the hypocrisy that reigns in FreeBSD. This doesn't seem to affect the ports and doc teams, though. If you want to get a src commit bit you have to: a) show you're a good hacker. b) lick the ass of some committer. That b) part will let you in, and you'll be member of the gentlemen club. Shall you fail to follow groupthink or understand the different classes that live in FreeBSD land, you'll immediately lose your bit. There are first class committers, the elite, like Poul-Henning who can commit and back out without ever giving explanations to other people, then there are the mere mortals who get flamed if they ever make changes that break the build and introduce bugs.

      Why do you think people like asmodai resigned? Because they didn't want to play that game anymore. This attitude is not present in any other big software project that I'm aware of. Ask Brett Glass how has he been treated all these years in return for his FreeBSD advocacy. These guys are a bunch of elitist assholes and that's the message I want out, so people don't mistake them for nice guys.

      What you need to learn is a little respect for people and their work, regardless of if you agree with them.

      I'll show respect to them the moment they start respecting others (Brett, Terry, Jeroen, Billh, etc)

      Erlang Smorgreff

    24. Re:Keep in mind by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > The AC that replied to you wasn't me. I should be using my account but the last time I said something bad about FreeBSD my server was packeted for 8 hours straight, so I'll remain AC.

      Yeah.. that is kinda the problem with ACs.. realizing why people may want to stay AC is why I do read and reply to your posts.

      That said.. the last time I made a comment that could be considered negative (it was actually a joke about spam filtering in OpenBSD, Theo and fanmail, but I should have known that that wouldn't hit the sense of humor of people here) I got modded down, nothing else happened. If you got a dos as a result of posting, thats sad.

      At any rate, it would help if you'd at least sign your posts as to stay recognizable.

      > As you've been reading the lists for a while you'll remember what a fiasco 4.0-RELEASE was, with its incredibly broken ATA drivers. However, it was fixed very fast. We're already at 5.3, 5.3 fer Christs sake, and there are bugs in there that have been known for almost a year. The preemption bug cannot be fixed. It's a design flaw, but you'll never see jhb@ admit it.

      Yes, we are at 5.3, and right now its still not tagged stable, and 5.3 will not include some of the parts of the 5.x branch that are still problematic. That it is that way is a clear statement that those things are not ready.

      > What gets on my nerves though, is the hypocrisy that reigns in FreeBSD. This doesn't seem to affect the ports and doc teams, though. If you want to get a src commit bit you have to: a) show you're a good hacker. b) lick the ass of some committer. That b) part will let you in, and you'll be member of the gentlemen club. Shall you fail to follow groupthink or understand the different classes that live in FreeBSD land, you'll immediately lose your bit. There are first class committers, the elite, like Poul-Henning who can commit and back out without ever giving explanations to other people, then there are the mere mortals who get flamed if they ever make changes that break the build and introduce bugs.

      I am staying at the fringes of development for a reason, but then, I do the same with some other systems (Linux, NetBSD). Having been in charge of some community developed software (mostly related to muds btw) has told me enough to not want to get in deeper unless explicitly invited to do so.

      What I don't get is people who comment on such things happening in the FreeBSD team, and then go ignore that this kind of thing happens in almost any group. Want some examples? Go read the report of the commity that investigated the 9/11 attacks and their conclusion about groupthink. Go disagree with government policy and you are called unpatriotic.

      What I don't get is such people doing the same kind of things as they so strongly denounce in others. You think someone is an idiot for doing what they do? well, don't be an idiot and do the same yourself then. (don't take this personal, not trying to call you an idiot here)

      > I'll show respect to them the moment they start respecting others (Brett, Terry, Jeroen, Billh, etc)

      Ah ok, so what you say is: because someone else is a fool, I'll be one myself as well.

    25. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > but I no longer [contribute] because of what happened to Matt [...] Poul and Erlang have a huge history of inter-camp flamage.

      So you think what happened to Matt (being disciplined for making controversial commits and then refusing backout requests) was bad? Then what would you have FreeBSD do for phk and des? (Currently, other developers call them down when they make controversial commits and refuse backouts). Should they have their commit bits suspended as well? And let's say they do, and then they leave too (rather than just serving their suspension). Will the Slashdot posters then say that that treatment was fair, or unfair?

      Bad behavior is bad behavior and ought not to be tolerated, but if the cost of suspending someone's commit bit is 2 more year's worth of reading how incredibly unfair the treatment was, then it's probably just worth putting up with the two assholes. (No disagreement that both of the above can be assholes when they want to.)

      btw, the prevailing belief that Matt was punished for things he didn't do is simply untrue. A search on the mailing lists for 'backout' will show several cases of his refusals. Whether or not you agree that the punishment fit the crime is irrelevant; it's simply factual that there were occasions where he refused backout requests.

      The point of all this: would you have stayed active if all 3 of them had been disciplined in exactly the same way, or would you just be 3 times as dissatisfied?

    26. Re:Keep in mind by molnarcs · · Score: 1

      You have some very good questions there. I wish I had modpoints (well, actually I had, but choose to post).

    27. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think what happened to Matt (being disciplined for making controversial commits and then refusing backout requests) was bad? Then what would you have FreeBSD do for phk and des?

      I simply want that people are treated the same. You know, it's not like des@ hasn't been an ass for years, but they let him be this way. So either Poul's and Erlang's commit bits should have gone into temporary suspension whenever they acted that way or Matt's should have never been taken away. Matt was an ass too on some ocasions, because he had no choice. jhb@ effectively froze half of the tree for his SMP work he kept in his own perforce repo, preventing others from touching any file. That's unfair.

      btw, the prevailing belief that Matt was punished for things he didn't do is simply untrue. A search on the mailing lists for 'backout' will show several cases of his refusals. Whether or not you agree that the punishment fit the crime is irrelevant; it's simply factual that there were occasions where he refused backout requests.

      It's true when you consider he was treated as a second class citizen compared to others. phk@ has done that a lot of times and, when asked if you could explain why, he simply said "No.". So either none of them goes, they grow up, or the three get the same treatment.

      The point of all this: would you have stayed active if all 3 of them had been disciplined in exactly the same way, or would you just be 3 times as dissatisfied?

      I would still be active if that nauseating We are better than you, we are FreeBSD committers attitude wasn't there. As I've said, this problem doesn't seem to exist in the ports and doc groups. Seems to be a kernel-people only thing.

    28. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disclaimer: secondhand information follows.

      I've been told that over the years, each of the above people has/had repeatedly been warned about their behavior -- not just in terms of commits vs. backouts, but, more importantly, how they treat other committers. des and phk grumble but then say they'll try to do better, and then for a while they do; but Matt said he had no intention of turning down the rhetoric. And this had gone on for years -- when Matt's commit bit was suspended, it was more for that track record than for that one individual commit.

      Understand, I'm not defending any of their behavior -- I've been known to take each of them to task, publically, when they go into Ex Cathedra mode. But there have been recent cases where both phk and des have indeed, albeit grudgingly, performed requested backouts.

      I don't think anyone is happy about having to put up with 'the attitude', but the distinction between how these folks were treated seems to come down to, once you hold their feet to the fire, will they do a backout or not?

      Of course it would just be a lot easier on everyone if we could spray some Magic Maturity Spray around. But in the meantime, if you want a delineation in how they were treated, there it is, AFAICT.

    29. Re:Keep in mind by platipusrc · · Score: 1

      You really should run one of the -RELEASE (like 5.3-RELEASE) version of FreeBSD instead of running -STABLE. -STABLE on FreeBSD is like the "testing" distribution from Debian, while -CURRENT is like the "unstable" distribution from Debian. Sort of. Except that -STABLE is turned into a -RELEASE a lot more often than "testing" is turned into a real release of Debian.

      --
      And the muscular cyborg German dudes dance with sexy French Canadians
    30. Re:Keep in mind by rsidd · · Score: 3, Informative
      Ask Brett Glass how has he been treated all these years in return for his FreeBSD advocacy.

      What Brett Glass does is not advocacy. And what you people are doing for DFly is not advocacy either. It annoys people and sends them somewhere else. Nobody likes whiny paranoid high-pitched idiots, and it's high time you realised it.

    31. Re:Keep in mind by GombuMstr · · Score: 1

      vmware is in the ports I use it on my laptop. It actually runs really well.

    32. Re:Keep in mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry you were being stupid and someone called you on it. Would you stop crying if someone actually felt sorry for you, even if for a second?

  3. Post BitTorrent in summary for RELEASE! by CaptainPinko · · Score: 5, Insightful
    For whomever decides to submit the article for the RELEASE of 5.3 would you please post a torrent? The horde of /. that will want it immediately will get to get it faster since they won't be bogging down the server. People who don't have the a BT client can then have the FTP all to themselves while we share our unsued bandwidth. Plus, that gives those of us on slower connections the ability to turn off the computer and resume the download later WITHOUT the fear of corruption.

    Please mod this up so any submitters and story accepters can see this. (I'm not a karma whoe, got quite enough just wanted this to start at +2)


    PS: why does it take so long for the FreeBSD people so long to update their schedule?

    --
    Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
    1. Re:Post BitTorrent in summary for RELEASE! by devphaeton · · Score: 2, Funny

      PS: why does it take so long for the FreeBSD people so long to update their schedule [freebsd.org]?

      Maybe because they are so busy working on the release itself? :oP

      --


      do() || do_not(); // try();
    2. Re:Post BitTorrent in summary for RELEASE! by Ezdaloth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      PS: why does it take so long for the FreeBSD people so long to update their schedule?

      What's part do you consider 'taking long'? It is afaik updated at every new item they complete, which was about once per week for the last 1.5 months. There s nothing that takes long imo.

    3. Re:Post BitTorrent in summary for RELEASE! by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 2, Informative

      For whomever decides to submit the article for the RELEASE of 5.3 would you please post a torrent?
      THis is a little less necessary for FreeBSD. A majority (though of course not all) people who would use Beta 7 would be people actively tracking 5.3 sequence, meaning they'd be much more likely using cvsup, not downloading full isos. A smaller subset of people would need the ISO, thinking that it will be out of date in a very short period of time, and if they're going to go through the trouble of downloading full isos, then burn them, they'd just wait for 5.3-RELEASE. I for one installed 4.8 off of floppies, now up to 4.10 through cvsup.

    4. Re:Post BitTorrent in summary for RELEASE! by CaptainPinko · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I was trying to refer to whoever posts the for 5.3-RELEASE. To post the BT for that.

      My connection is to slow to cvsup but I can grab a few CD-Rs and use my school's connection to d/l and burn the ISOs and then just update using CDs. I'm sure their are other's like me.

      I hope this didn't come off trollish.

      --
      Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
  4. Surprised by Homology · · Score: 3, Interesting
    import BIND 9.3.0, this completely replaces the old BIND 8.x nameserver in the base system

    Isn't it a bit late in the Beta series to import a new BIND?

    1. Re:Surprised by numbski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As am I. My name servers here are running 5.2.1, which are Bind 8.x. Granted, I'm longing for 9.x so I can use the new commands to block off Verisign's SiteFinder BS.

      I don't think my named.conf or db files need to change for the newer version....can anyone give me a brief summary of what to expect when I rebuild my name servers and fire up my old config?

      --

      Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).

    2. Re:Surprised by josepha48 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Considering how long bind 9 has been in the ports, shouldn't the real question be, wht took them so long?

      This is good news as I am tired of having to add bind 9 from the ports to my system.

      --

      Only 'flamers' flame!
      Does slashdot hate my posts?

    3. Re:Surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BIND9 was a "show stopper" item for 5-STABLE. That is why it is just now being imported, with the STABLE branch looming ever closer.

    4. Re:Surprised by hugo_pt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There has been some discussion in the freebsd mailing lists about this change. BIND now resides in /var/named/ and some people are not confortable about this. The default behaviour now is chrooting named too. Personally, I like the old way better (/etc/namedb) as /var has a specific usage on FreeBSD, which is not keeping DNS server records. Changing the default from BIND8 to BIND9 will already make some people angry (because of migration issues), let alone changing bind base directory to a directory that won't fit in the freebsd philosophy.. You can read the whole discussion at http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current /2004-October/039288.html

    5. Re:Surprised by ivoras · · Score: 2, Interesting
      This is actually connected to the development model of FreeBSD. Since BIND is part of 'base', very special care is taken in the import and any changes to it once it's released will be extremely conservative. The version of BIND imported in 5.3 will remain the same (+bugfixes) for the whole duration of 5_STABLE, the same as BIND 8 was present almost unchanged for the entire age of RELENG_4. Also, gcc in RELENG_5 will always be 3.4, even when 4.0 is out.

      If you're not happy with it, ports will contain latest and greatest versions.

      --
      -- Sig down
    6. Re:Surprised by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Read /usr/src/UPDATING included with the latest BETAs, and the HEADS UP thread about it on the -current mailing list. Everything you need to know is in those two places.

    7. Re:Surprised by molnarcs · · Score: 3, Informative
      Here is some info from the mailing lists:

      HEADS UP: BIND 9 imported, and working!

      A satisfied customer.

      Unsatisfied customer

    8. Re:Surprised by Black+Acid · · Score: 0
      Granted, I'm longing for 9.x so I can use the new commands to block off Verisign's SiteFinder BS.
      SiteFinder is still up?
      --
      Tired of free ipod spam sigs? Opt ou
    9. Re:Surprised by archen · · Score: 1

      Bind 9 has been in ports for a long time. I'm using it with no problems. It means that you have to change 2 or 3 things in rc.conf but that's about it. Is there any particular reason you're sticking with the system named?

    10. Re:Surprised by archen · · Score: 1

      Although I am familiar with BIND, I'm not familiar with what it needs from the system. Since I mount /var with 'noexec', is that going to work in a chroot enviornment? I would think that this is probably a common practice which could bite a lot of people in the ass if the chroot and noexec don't jive well together.

    11. Re:Surprised by hugo_pt · · Score: 1

      It will work fine since the chroot is implemented at the named binary level. The problem here is the FreeBSD philosophy as I stated in my other post, for example, named.conf should never reside on /var ; But, as said in one of the posts to the mailing list, you can use the -c option to specify an alternative path to named.conf. At least with the port version, the -c option was (I think, almost sure) relative to the chroot path. I don't know how true the statement in the mailing list was. I say, if it was running fine with the old scheme, it should be kept. If this was going to be implemented, perhaps they should have thought it on an earlier BETA stage. just my 2 cents.

  5. Still not ready to go gold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The data corruption bug on SMP systems is still there. My usb joypad still doesn't work. usb printer goes bananas from time to time. Still a no go. Thank $DEITY for NetBSD 2.0

    Darling Smorgrav

    1. Re:Still not ready to go gold by hugo_pt · · Score: 2, Informative

      The SMP bug is gone, the only left is the data corruption using gvinum.

    2. Re:Still not ready to go gold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the subbmitted PR links are where?

    3. Re:Still not ready to go gold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I reported that eons ago dude: See here

  6. Ports Freeze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hopefully this latest release will be "good enough" to allow the ports tree to be unfrozen.

    1. Re:Ports Freeze by sp0rk173 · · Score: 1

      You're telling me. I want gnome 2.8 at work, damnit! While an avid Gentoo user at home, it's great to see FreeBSD, a "dead OS" have their initial gnome 2.8 stuff hammered out before Gentoo. Hell, it's been ready for quite a while...just waiting for the tree to defrost.

  7. Is this a "Feed the troll" contest? by ulib · · Score: 3, Informative

    Do you really think this mindless fool is representing DragonFlyBSD? Or he knows what he's talking about when he speaks against top notch FreeBSD developers? Come on...

    The truth is, /. should not allow AC posters. It only gives trolls like this the opportunity to pollute the pleasant & technical BSD discussions with this kind of crap.

    What's more disgusting, I think this moron, who's defaming both FreeBSD & DragonFlyBSD developers at the same time, has an agenda. I bet he's the good-old GNU zealot we all know, throwing sh*t at BSD as usual - it has happened for a looong time on this board.

    Maybe you're right, he's really starting with a new "campaign". Because the old one, you know, wasn't really that successful. :-D

    1. Re:Is this a "Feed the troll" contest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell are you talking about? I haven't defamed any DF developer. Top notch FreeBSD developers? LOL. Ask anyone with a clue about phk's code quality. You might be surprised.

      I consider GNU restrictive and proprietary and avoid it all the time. So you got that wrong as well.

      Erlang Smorgreff

    2. Re:Is this a "Feed the troll" contest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who, *exactly*, do you have in mind when you say "Ask anyone with a clue...?" What exactly is your criteria for one's degree of cluefulness? For instance, according to some of my criteria (the ability to make a convincing argument based on fact and logical reasoning), you are pathetically lacking in the clue department. You are using sad and tired lightweight propoganda techniques to create a perception without providing a single fact or shred of evidence.
      Please provide names, quotes and sources to back up your claims. Of course, you can't, because they don't exist. You are also incapable of even understanding PHK's code for yourself because you are not a programmer. You are some wannabe geek desperately in need of social approval and so you have grabbed hold of this niche topic, about which you have no real understanding, in the fading hope that someone will believe you know something about something. If you want to be "better" than the highly intelligent, skillful and productive programmers designing real-world, industrial-strength operating systems like FreeBSD, you have to actually do the work of learning how to program. If you were doing that work, you wouldn't have time to engage in stupid arguments like this. Which reminds me, I have some actual work to do. Get a life, kid.

    3. Re:Is this a "Feed the troll" contest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, don't make the mistake of thinking I can't code. I do that for a living. I've been coding since I was 6. My first computer was a ZX Spectrum (remember those?) and that's where I learned basic. Later I got an Amiga 500 and learned mc68k assembler. So I've been programming for 20 years, professionally for 3.

      I don't know why I justify myself. If you want to see why phk@'s code is (a lot of times) pretty low quality, check it yourself. phkmalloc is pretty good, GEOM is a piece of junk, so are all the ATM bits he coded, some of the crap he did with the floppy driver, the serial port hacking he did (for which Dillon had a better fix, btw).

      I'm not making it up. He isn't some kind of demigod, he's a better than average hacker, that's it. He's nowehere near people like Peter Wemm or Matt Dillon. Even further from gods like McKusick. Stop thinking he's so special.

      But you know what? I don't give a flying fuck about FreeBSD anymore. I've cancelled all my projects involving FreeBSD and will drop all the ports I maintain. My server runs OpenBSD and my 2 desktops run NetBSD 2.0 and Gentoo respectively. phk@ and des@ can take their attitude and stick it up their asses.

      Smoorgroff.

  8. Don't use it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slackware (and Linux) is much better. FreeBSD doesn't even offer UDF support, tmpfs, and such.

    1. Re:Don't use it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slackware was a very nice distro in 1994, not now. And no, swaret doesn't cut it. If you want a good Linux distro use Gentoo. Or Debina if you don't mind using packages made in 1975.

      Either way, both make a much better desktop than FreeBSD ever will.

      Furlong Smoorgroff