32-bit Processors, Cheap

An anonymous reader writes "Atmel is sampling the first in a new line of 32-bit system-on-chip processors that could spell the death of the venerable 8-bit microcontroller market by offering 32-bit performance at 8-bit pricing. Priced as low as $3 each, the AT91SAM7 chips with ARM7TDMI RISC CPU cores and built-in RAM/flash memory may even be able to run a form of Linux called uClinux. The death of the 8-bit uC market has long been predicted -- sounds like the end is nigh!"

Comments

Overkill

[jsin]

There are so many embedded applications that do just fine with 8-bit controllers that there is no reason they should dissapear just because something more powerful comes along.

Anyone who has done this design knows that there is more cost in what happens on the whiteboard than something like this at the component level.

Not everything in the world has the "upgrade or else" fear that surrounds the personal computer industry.

Re:Overkill

[Rolo Tomasi]

Exactly, sounds like marketing hype ... I mean, a lot of (most?) consumer electronics still use 4-bit MCUs.

Actually, I don't see much demand for these "medium speed" controllers. For control applications, they're overkill most of the time, and for multimedia stuff, they're too slow/small.

Re:Overkill

[Tenareth]

Yes, but this isn't the consumer market. Heck, 80186's are still made and used today.

Also, 32bit probably drains more power and generates more heat. Staying 8bit was not generally a $$$ thing, it's that it's the right tool for the job.

Re:Overkill

[Tassach]

There are so many embedded applications that do just fine with 8-bit controllers that there is no reason they should dissapear just because something more powerful comes along.

Manufacturers are not stupid, therefore I'd be shocked if the 32-bit uC's are not backward-compatible with the older 8-bit models. Not just code-level backward compatibility, but pin-level backward compatibility too.

The main cost in a chip is the design, as you've noticed. Once you've masked out the die, it doesn't cost significantly more to fab a 32-bit chip as it does to fab an 8-bit chip. A 32-bit core implies that they're using a more modern process, so it's likely that they can now make a more powerful uC which uses less power & generates less heat than the previous generation.

Re:Overkill

[jumpingfred]

This is not correct. That assumes that the 8 bit and 32 bit processors take the same die area. I would think that the 8 bit processor would take less die area and would be cheaper to manufacture.

Re:Overkill

[AKAImBatman]

Also, 32bit probably drains more power and generates more heat.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned memory. With 32 bit processors, you need four times the memory to run the same program as an 8 bit CPU. That makes these parts less flexible than their 8 bit counterparts, even though they are a bit faster.

Re:Overkill

[El]

I hope you've got lot's of burn ointment, and big biceps to carry around all those batteries -- a full pentium-PC-on-a-chip would draw more power and disipate more heat that your average lightbulb -- not exactly what I'd want strapped to my wrist!

Re:Overkill

[joe270]

With 32 bit processors, you need four times the memory to run the same program as an 8 bit CPU. That makes these parts less flexible than their 8 bit counterparts

Not true...32 bit designs can still have memory that is addressable by the byte, and single bytes can still be loaded to or stored from the core registers. You just sign extend the upper 24 bits of the registers (fill with 0 if it's a positive value or 1 if it's negative). So you don't lose any flexibility there.

even though they are a bit faster

Actually, the speed of the processor is only dependent on its clock speed, not the size of the word that it can handle. If your words are 32 bits, then a 32 bit processor is much faster because you don't have the overhead of using 4 registers to hold the word (and manually coding for carries in addition, etc.) So, without a specific model or application in mind, you can't really say anything definitive about speed.

Re:Overkill

[AJWM]

Reflashing the firmware in a million CPU-based systems is a hell of a lot cheaper than redesigning, remanufacturing and replacing a million ASICs.

Recalls do happen.

Not the death, but certainly less market

[Anonymous Coward]

The 8-bit MCU market has been shrinking for over a decade. It's no secret. Of course there will always be a market for small-time CPUs; certainly hobbyists will want them. But traditional places like your car computers need more real-time DSP computation and the like, and require the MCU to grow with them.

Re:Not the death, but certainly less market

[feloneous cat]

The 8-bit MCU market has been shrinking for over a decade. It's no secret. Of course there will always be a market for small-time CPUs; certainly hobbyists will want them. But traditional places like your car computers need more real-time DSP computation and the like, and require the MCU to grow with them.

Has the 8-bit MCU market shrunk? Sounds like "repeat it enough and EVENTUALLY some dumbass will believe it".

I've been writing 8 bit code for nigh 20 years. Somehow, whether it be luck or skill, I have remained employed. And so have a lot of programmers who, oddly enough, are still programming those "dead" 8 bitters.

"I'm not dead."
"What?"
"Nothing. There's your ninepence."
"I'm not dead."
"'Ere, he says he's not dead."
"Yes he is."
"I'm not."
"He isn't."
"Well, he will be soon, he's very ill."

Pretty much sez where we are with the 8 bitters. They aren't dead but there are those just ready to club them over the head (over and over and over) to try to make it so.

Re:And so it begins

[garcia]

Who wants to be able to program their TV to record TV from work? Who wants to program their lights to come on from work? Who wants to program their heat/AC to turn on/off from work? Who wants their oven to preheat from work?

I know I do.

Enough already!

[Anonymous Coward]

While I love to hear news of the latest whizbang doohicky, I cannot stand when people have to add "This is surely going to end anyone on the planet ever using last years widget..." As geeks we should be aware and PROUD of old technology. Serial ports? I use them every day at work. 8 bit microcontrollers. I love them to death. They work nice, are cheap enough, and are very easy to design for and around. So yes, many places where someone might have used X in the past will now be replaced with Y, but so freakin what? But part of the joy of hacking is taking what someone else thought was worthless and using it anyway. Hence the stories of people salvaging old laptops or modding their Amigas to be a multimedia console, etc. Yes, the newest latest greatest toys are spiffy and should be discussed, but how about we all just settle down and stop dumping on anything not cutting edge?

Sure they're cheap, but there's more that matters

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the heat dissipation and power usage? Sometimes that's a lot more important than the price. If it's just as cheap but uses more power, you might need a bigger power supply, more batteries, better heat dissipation, possibly a fan, etc., it doesn't help.

I'm pretty sure standard 8-bit uCs are overkill for most applications -- what would 32-bits buy you?

OK, you *can* put a web browser in your gas pump, but should you? Having seen BP's implementation, I would say not.

aQazaQa

I think 8 bit has more life left in it.

[Dzimas]

I use Microchip processors extensively for work, and there's a heck of a lot that I can accomplish with their limited architecture -- my most recent design required less than 8K of flash memory and was mostly written in assembler. For low-end applications, 32-bit doesn't make sense, especially if its going to add $1 to the cost of manufacture. Given that small 8-bit MCUs can be purchased for well under $1 in large volume, I think there's a market for them.

Re:And so it begins

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Who wants to worry about someone hacking their TV and deleting all their recordings? Who wants to worry about whether or not you're lights will stay on/off because some scriptkiddie wrote a BlinkenLitez for your neighborhood? Who wants to come home to find out their house is heated to a balmy 97 degrees because someone hacked their thermostat? Who wants to come home to find their oven has been running all day on Broil?

I know I don't.

Real Applications

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

There are a few applications where this step up will really help. There are several projects that impliment a tcp/ip stack on a microcontroller. I've seen webservers about the size of a quarter! How cool is that!

Even though this has already been done with 8-bit controllers, it would be much easier with 32 bits. This will make it just a little easier to connect your toaster/fridge/(fill_in_the_blank) to your network.

Re:Misleading Summary

[RadioheadKid]

Yeah, right after they design and build a printed circuit board (PCB) and get the board built, which at low quanties is not cheap and makes the $3 insignificant. Which leads back to my first point, the people who will be using these parts will be using them in bulk, so that statement is legitimate. Plus they said as low as $3. There is nothing misleading there.

Re:Keep It Simple, Stanley.

[Doctor Memory]

a simpler assembler language (for the 5% of the coding that takes 50% of the time :-)

Actually, one of the things that makes that 5% of the code so difficult is often because you're trying to calculate 32-bit values with an 8-bit accumulator. On the fly. While handling interrupts...

ARM7TDMI?

[elFarto the 2nd]

ARM7TDMI, isn't that the same processor that's in the Gameboy Advance?

Regards
elFarto

"The death of the 8-bit uC market"

[bani]

there are a lot of reasons to use 8-bit uCs. price is only one of them, and rarely the most significant factor. often, uC price is the least significant factor.

pin count, component size, power consumption, and overall complexity are the other major factors in embedded designs. all of these factors are higher in 32bit uCs.

8bit designs arent used solely because they're less powerful, but because they are far simpler than the mess of logic required to support 16bit or 32bit uCs.

8bit uCs aren't in any danger of being killed off by this.

Proven Reliability

[nurb432]

One thing the 8bits have going for them is a proven track record of reliability.

As you go with smaller dies, you introduce the potential for problems in extreme environments..

You also have decades of experience and existing tools that have to be dealt with..

There is more to the cost of an embedded solution then the CPU cost..

Cutting through the fog

[Anonymous Coward]

1) 8 bit CPU are lower power than 32bit CPU's
Not so. Manufacturers, including ATMEL, run new and high volume products through the latest small geometry low voltage processes; Older 16/8/4bit parts in the main get left behind on higher power consumption lines, never to be die shrunk.

2) Goodbye 8bit
There will always be a place for the smaller parts. Rice Cookers for example are manufacutered in *huge* quantities; Do you think they will spend 10 cent more on a CPU because it is 'easier to code on'? No.

LQFP 40 and 64 pin packages can be soldered by your average electronics ham; I for one am looking forward to playing with an ARM CPU finally. If I can ever get one, which is unlikely. Atmel are not Microchip, sadly

Mike.

Not for those with a shaky hand...

[arabagast]

Reading in the article, it states that it will be delivered in LQFP packages, which means that it will be a pain in the a.. to solder it yourself. offcourse it's possible, but i believe many DIY projects don't include either the equipment, or skill to manage to solder this thing. For the more advanced it's offcourse pretty cool, but I guess i'll still stick with the PIC - there's currently no need to use this chip for 99% (yes, I picked this number randomly, and it is therefore not valid but..) of all the DIY projects out there.
..as I strike down upon thee..

Reports of my death...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Reports of my death have been greatly overclocked!" - AT90 uC

"I thought I was dead, turned out, I was in Boise." - Z8

That being said:

I doubt that I would ever use a 32-bit controller for what I've been building these past years. I'm not about to strap a 500 hp motor to my lawnmower. Why would I use anything more powerful than my AT90s or AT89s for simple controls?

This is not to say that a 32 bit uC has no place. I've been seeing projects such as homebrew iPods using some of the upper end uCs. 32s would be great.

How about a dedicated Atmel based Freevo type device? Completely homebrewed without resorting to Intel/AMD.

This chip could be fun.

They Have Been saying that for 15+ Years

[Anonymous Coward]

I attendded the 3rd Emmbedded Systems Conference.
The Keynote Topic. 8bit CPUs will be around for many more decades. if 16 (now 32) bits cost a dollar 8bits will cost a dime.
$3.00 some 8 bit chips cost $0.25. Ram and ROM included. and run on a milliamp.