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Borland C++Builder Revolt
florescent_beige writes "Developers using Borland's C++Builder RAD tool are in revolt. Borland apparently obsoleted this product one year ago. However, the promised migration path (to be described in a now infamous open letter) never materialized.
In a last-ditch effort to convince Borland to support them, users have put together a letter justifying (and begging) for continued support."
Poster writes
Slashdot places this story in the "fight-the-man dept.".
Asking or begging a proprietor to do what you want is not fighting anyone, it's acknowledging that you are not livin in freedom. Placing yourself in a dependant position by not choosing free software to do the job doesn't bode well for leveraging a free market to supply the desired changes or improvements. Ironically, all the customers the letter cites are capable of paying for the support they want. Perhaps these developers should put some money and/or time into getting someone to distribute a free software program that does what they want so they won't be in this position.
Digital Citizen
if a RAD tool is open source then people can put some time on making their RAD tool better and better. Borland here just puts a dead end to a product which seemed to have some followers. Not good for Borland, not good for Borland users. Now opening up the source seems like the right thing to do.
It's a proprietary development environment used by a large number of developers to create the type of software they wish to create.
I remember writing in Pascal, and paying for the Pro edition of Borland Pascal with Objects. It was a great environment for the level of development I was doing. It included a large block of source code for OWL which if you spent enough time tweeking, you could have even rebuilt the IDE out of, including the compiler and debugger.
I don't know if the Pro release of Builder C++ provides the same type of set of source code. If it does, then there is no real reason to force Borland to try to continue supporting the software. The 'Pro' or 'Enterprise' customers can review the code, modify it, and create patch files that can be distributed to other developers at the pro and enterprise levels.
So they won't be blessed by Borland. Like Borland has done a lot of other good for you this past year?
-Rusty
You never know...
this is just further confirmation that I made the right choice in abandoning Borland ( both BCB and JBuilder ) before they abanonded me!
I am shocked that anyone thought Borland wouldn't pull a stunt like this. They have a consistent history of making products that are a great leap ahead and then just sitting idly by as everyone else catches up and surpasses them.
For developer environments, the software does in fact "rot". For example new APIs and components are introduced in the underlying operating systems, and the compilers and libraries etc usually have to be updated to use them correctly. I remember sitting idly by during the Windows 95 beta programs waiting for a version of BC++ that could actually produce Win95 programs. (It wasn't a big leap as they already produced Win32 programs for NT but some updates were needed for win95). As another example, you need some tweaks done if you want a Win32 program to use the proper widgets under WinXP.
Unless there is steady stream of effort to at least keep up to date, and fix bugs then the development environment will become useless.
I just started using Borland's C++ Builder 1.5 Mobile Edition for Symbian/Nokia mobile phone software. So far, it sucks. It can't perform incremental builds: changing one
I think there is a reason that Microsoft Visual C++ won out over Borland's C++ tools.
cpeterso
If Borland are being stinky, and poeople are starting to suffer from being "locked in" (even thought it was nice while it lasted) then its time to look at:
wxPython
and
Boa Constructor, a python IDE and RAD style designer. Its a bit harder than Delphi (or am I getting mentally stale) but at least its fully cross platform GUI and open source, so you get to increase your target market and never get locked in again.
No point in continuing with Delphi.net, it may only happen again in a few years when the fashions change.
I learned this lessen a few years ago when a nameless search engine salesman witheld some updates and we (Ananova/Orange) switched to the open source Xapian search engine and paid one of the original developers to do some more work on it for us. Xapian is now being trialed as the search engine behind gmane
Its the same lesson Richard Stallman learned years ago. Don't get locked in.
There's no need to learn that lesson twice. And, you may as well join the FSF while you are at it. You know it makes more sense than most political donations, and for less than the price of a night out each month! I got a copy of Lessigs "Free Culture" in the post today as part of my FSF membership.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
I used BCB from the beginning through 5.0 and preferred it over Visual Studio 5 & 6. I haven't used BCB 6.0. I haven't had a project that justifies purchasing BCB6, but I've heard good things about it, except that the IDE is reported to be less stable running on the Win9x family.
If you want both C++ and GUI development for Win32, BCB has no real competition. GUI creation is as easy as Delphi (or Visual Basic, for those unfamiliar with Delphi). IMHO the "Visual" in Visual C++ is more about marketing and naming consistency with the other MS "Visual" development tools.
T
Obsolete not verb. pls fix. k?
since it was version 3, all the way to CBuilder-6(and ofcorse i have used their Borland C compiler before the IDE).
I think it is one hell of a devlopment tool, what you do in visual studio in days, can take you hours in CBuilder. With all the drag & drop options, components, and third party objects that were available, it was an extremly easy to use tool.
Some drawbacks though were blotted executable, and runtime libraries issues, but they were only a nag and not a major show stopper.
Too bad they had to cut the support.
Personally i think its a very stupid move from their side, CBuilder was their number 1 product, and they are killing it???? That is a true example of shooting your self in the foot.
The lunatic is in my head
And how, might I ask, is this comment off topic?
The parent asked for opinions about the product clearly named as the subject of the article.
This post clearly provides one such requested opinion.
I started with Borland back in the Turbo Pascal days. I did a ton and a half of work with Borland C++ V3 (with a ton of books!), and then Delphi and C++ Builder after that. Quality of their products has steadily declined. I believe that the 'top gun' at Borland was hired away by Microsoft. Everything has been buggy and problematic since.
One thing that I REALLY liked about Borland back then was their software license. Basically it said that you had the right to 'Use this software as you would a book'. Meaning that you are allowed to install it on multiple computers as long as only one person would be using it at a time - and it could be different people as well.
I lamented the loss of Borland's products 2 years ago. Now, mingw32 and the old trusty standby vc++6 are my windows tools of choice.
As a previous poster said: that is the problem with closed source applications. Sometimes you get burned like this. I was burned before when Borland C++ Builder upgrades didn't load old projects properly and other closed source widget libraries become incompatible.
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
Excuse me, but I've tried Visual Studio, and I really wasn't all that impressed. I mean it isn't horrible, but I wouldn't rule out the chance that someone else could still come along at beat them.
I agree, both Turbo Pascal and Turbo C were fantastic. One person mentioned open source, why not use the Eclipse IDE, and supply a Borland plugin?
n/t
Perhaps Anjuta would be more use to them in conjuncion with gcc? Here are the features and here is the eye candy.
Products like C++ Builder are not only fancy IDEs and compilers, but they come with very rich class libraries. If someone has invested years of development time creating applications using these class libraries, thier discontinuation is a disaster if they are to continue to develop their application without rewriting it from scratch using different libraries, or in a whole new language environment.
Stick Men
I can't remember his name, but he was indeed behind all the greatness of Delphi, and was hired by Microsoft. IIRC, he's the one behind C#.
*sigh* Imagine what Delphi would be today...
perception is reality
"Perhaps these developers should put some money and/or time into getting someone to distribute a free software program that does what they want..."
Last time I checked, if you're paying for software it isn't free.
This whole problem has recently become incredibly relevant for me. We are starting a project, and I am in charge of deciding which development enviroment to use.
.NET is the future, but I can only assume that's out of ignorance, or a real commitment to MS platforms. And don't talk about Mono, it's an interesting project, but it's far from being a drop-in replacement for .NET at the moment, and we need solutions now.
I started by trying JBuilder. I gave up. It's not that I don't like Java - but it ends up being too ecletic in its stubborness for not supporting things like properties and operator overloading - I know how to develop, I don't need a language that imposes limits, I want a language that is easy to write and read, and I'd rather type C++ than the whole verbosity of Java.
I tried Delphi, but again, it's syntax is aging. Don't get me wrong, it's not just about syntax, but if given the chance to develop in C++ or in Delphi, I'll pick the former.
Lastly, we decided to go with BC6. We didn't adhere to using CLX and decided to go with VCL, confident that at any time it would not be a hard issue to port it over, if need ever arised. I'm not so sure right now.
And it's not all about visuals. It's about things that Borland was innovative in, like BDE/dbExpress and the whole concept of linking databases to datasets and then to data-aware controls. It's the whole atmosphere of using a Borland product and having freedom of choice.
I do NOT want to use C#, even though I like the language. I simply refuse to step back 10 years and go back at programming for a single-platform enviroment. Some people say
So, real world choices for RAD enterprise-grade applications involving database access, complex forms, multi-platform, etc? Delphi, C++ or Java.
Java isn't really slow anymore, but the syntax is a disgrace. Why on earth would I want to write a.setCounter( a.getCounter() + 3 ) when Delphi has had for ages a mechanism of properties that allows me to write "a.counter += 3" - even C++ allows for similar freedom, with operator overloading (although not the same) (and no, JavaBeans aren't the answer).
I know, this post comes out as a collection of assorted gripes, mostly in an attempt to justify why I chose to commit to using Borland C++Builder 6. I believe in it, and Kylix. Where's that going? We have a very tight deadline (don't we all) and using Delphi or BC6 is the only viable chance to beat it. Syntax-wise Delphi feels like using VB (ergh) so to keep some sanity intact, BC comes out as the obvious choice. Uncertainity is deadly when it comes to starting projects and preparing for the future... and it's causing me a great deal of concern wether I'm digging myself, the team and the project into a hole in choosing BC6.
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
The only problem I've had is that C++.NET is a horrible language, but the full support for C++ is still there and it still rocks.
Borland has always had brilliantly creative and powerful development tools. If you've ever used Borland Builder you know what a wonderful tool it was. Delphi (basically the same design but using Pascal instead of C++) is still eekeing by. But what Borland had to offer (OK performance with OK ease of use) has just been a loser's strategy in the current market place. Performance just isn't as important as it used to be, allowing Java and VB (which typically have worse performance) to eat Delphi's & Builder's lunch. The future is all about a 100% focus on ease of use in a programming tool- Performance has now been delegated to be an afterthought, as evidenced by the popularity of tools such as JIT compilers and VMs, which place language flexibility first and allow the performance to still remain acceptable. Companies like Borland that sacrifice some of the ease-of-use and RAD abilities of their tools in exchange for better performance via static compilation and language constructs that emphasize performance (no garbage collection in Delphi, for instance) are bound to become extinct at the hands of Moore's Law.
Borland has killed off : Codewright, Kylix,C++Builder
and left their developers high and dry.
Their flagship Delphi fails to work on XP systems
with the latest SP 2 applied.
They have long promised and failed to deliver
Compact Framework support in Delphi
Their head of Borland Developer Network, John Kaster is alternatively rude to or dismissive of developers
legitimate concerns.
All these are signs of a company in decline and serious internal disarray.
I would suggest that anyone thinking of using or continuing to use Borland products have a good long hard think about the consequences of their decision.
Just look at how Kylix and B++ Builder developers have
been abandoned. Some of us are desperate, we have large codebases that we foolishly wrote in Borland C++ Builder.
Now our codebases have been orphaned.
Switching to Visual Studio
Borland, you have burned developers once too often.
Borland has killed off : Codewright, Kylix,C++Builder
.NET
.NET is the rational thing to do but is going to be costly in terms of time and money.
and left their developers high and dry.
Their flagship Delphi fails to work on XP systems
with the latest SP 2 applied.
They have long promised and failed to deliver
Compact Framework support in Delphi
Their head of Borland Developer Network, John Kaster is alternatively rude to or dismissive of developers
legitimate concerns.
All these are signs of a company in decline and serious internal disarray.
I would suggest that anyone thinking of using or continuing to use Borland products have a good long hard think about the consequences of their decision.
Just look at how Kylix and B++ Builder developers have
been abandoned. Some of us are desperate, we have large codebases that we foolishly wrote in Borland C++ Builder.
Now our codebases have been orphaned.
Switching to Visual Studio
Borland, you have burned developers once too often.
>why I chose to commit to using Borland C++Builder 6. >I believe in it, and Kylix
Sucker.
So where does that "I believe in it" get you ?
Two dead development platform.
I hope your company sacks you for leading them down the Borland path to the land of the undead
Delphi 5 works well with SP2 here... Where have you heard that delphi + sp2 thing?
perception is reality
...is not the Borland I remember. I knew this when
they took too long to release a Pascal for Windows.
Since it was their *core* product, clearly they weren't so bothered about capturing hearts and minds as they were in the old days.
OK. I can live with that. But trashing the C++/C community? Hmm. Why is it a problem to keep both streams (and gradually wean people across to C# builder?).
This is not the company we knew and loved years ago.
Nuff said. But there are tears in my eyes because
they were well admired by almost all of us for the things they did in the past.
Anders is now working for those excellent and perhaps too much maligned folk at Redmond (don't spit H2SO4 at me, they are kool sometimes), and I'd guess since PK isn't there it isn't really the
*same* company it was.
Just the name. But, on the other hand Novell is
much to my delight proving that the name still matters.
I for one mourn the passing of a group of people that we all admired...
RIP Borland.
(But, Frank can come and drink a beer here in Athens any day of the week).
This isn't directly related to BC++, but it's in line with my other post slightly above. It's related to looking for alternatives, in the current age of Java, .NET and Mono.
.NET and CIL is good technology - I hate to admit it, but MS has something good there. It is not a surprise, as it comes a LOT from the same person that designed TorboPascal, Delphi and now C#. I recommend those interested to read an interview here and pay attention to the ideas he puts forth. It offers a lot of insight into a few things that are wrong with Java, and that most people will probably have felt.
.
.NET. I also recommend the GoMono FAQ . There's a lot FUD regarding possible patent threats from Microsoft over Mono, but I believe that to be mostly out of misinformation and lack of knowledge at how it works. The idea of a common VM isn't new, Parrot for instance is just another one.
.NET/Mono, that comes from careful study and consideration not just hype. Approaches like CIL and Parrot make a lot of sense... where do you see them going?
For the last 8 hours after my other post on this thread, I've been searching the net for information regarding C#, CIL, Mono, comparisons to Java (with usability in mind, not zealotism), etc. And one thing is for sure:
Also, one interesting RAD project is here.
I've also tryed to learn as much as I could from the state of Mono, its legal status... and I felt important to share that my view has changed slightly, it MIGHT become a player, and it might offer a cross-platform alternative to
I'd be most interested in whatever other people might have to say about Java vs
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
Oh well, I'd really like to be proved wrong here, because I know that since Anders left, Borland's going down, but as a developer who is not in the OSS stuff, what better option do I have than Delphi?
:)
Python: This really look interesting. I would gladly jump in this bandwagon BUT, I'm not in the OSS stuff. How the heck am I supposed to distribute applications on the internet without also distributing the sources? If there's a way, I'd like to know
C#: This too, looks interesting, but from what I read, it has few advantages over Delphi. Remember that it is the creator of Delphi who created C#, and he included a lot of Delphi concepts in C#.
VB: Don't make me laugh.
C++: I don't like the language, and it has few advantages over Delphi. And Object Pascal is much more graceful.
Java: even uglier than C++.
Since I have a quite large code library in Delphi, I don't think I'll move anytime soon. I guess I'm not the only one in this situation. Thus, stop saying Borland is dead, or tell me about an alternative language I should learn.
perception is reality
At the risk of feeding the trolls, please do take the time to read the article I linked to. It is quite clear that the operative definition of "free" is freedom, not zero price ("``Free software'' is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of ``free'' as in ``free speech,'' not as in ``free beer.''"). If we had been conversing in another language, odds are this would have been more immediately clear.
Digital Citizen
1) Its a shame that Borland waffled on C Builder support. I think it will really hurt them because it will hurt their other products. Delphi is hardly a world-reknown development tool. Now when programming shops consider what platform they are going to build upon, this non-ISO environment will certainly look unattractive; seeing how the company treats one of their formerly popular development packages.
2) Who really gives a frell? Its not like people can't do C++ anymore. Microsoft puts out a perfectly reasonable commercial developer interface. "It doesn't do this, it doesn't do that, I don't like the Evil Empire, blah blah blah..." Nothing is perfect, and if anything, Borland's product probably had more flaws. If you don't like a commercial monopoly, use crappy(?) open source tools.
The business environment is about reality, and reality bites. The reality is that Borland doesn't make the kind of money it needs to be viable corporate entity in this environment. They decided they don't have the money to support CBX or they need to put their money on some other savior product. Lets hope I'm wrong, they're right, and they live another day. If not, they're gonna greet Darwin anyway, and the market will have spoken. But face it, CBX offered nothing that made it head over heels superior to MS VS. Stop crying in your beer, unless that's the excuse you're using to drink...
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
How is it possible that Prolog outlasted C++?
I can't speak for Borland C++; maybe the other poster is right in saying that Anjuta + GCC is the closest replacement.
But as for replacing Delphi, isn't freepascal.org the project that is explicitly aiming to duplicate Delphi functionality? I am sure their project wouldn't mind the increased community support.
Thanks. I'll certainly have to look for that, because I really do like what I know of python :)
perception is reality
This is year 2004 and Borland offers us a language for which you cannot write a code analyzer/class diagram generator/semi-automatic doc generator - nothing that works on 100% of their code.
I repeat: Delphi is a joke language that needs to die.
Borland hasn't had a dime from me since they did the exact same thing with their DOS character-based GUI builder, TurboVision. These people never do a stabilization release, they just walk away. As you should.
Borland stepped on its dick so many times it could throw that pitiful, stretch-out thing over it's shoulder- And they STILL haven't learned. They've got a couple cute, techno-shiny toys- Yes, toys, that will always have a vociferous couple thousand developers that pay homage to it, and defend these ...gadgets... like a pack of scruffy, starving dogs. The real talent, from Borland and it's customers, left years ago.
Borland's tools and developers will always be a backwater in a wasteland of missed opportunities, so why worry about it? Move on. Or don't- It's easier if you confine your whining and bitching to the Borland forums.
you know, you just wouldn't believe who reads and posts anonymously to these forums...you just wouldn't believe it
Sure.
I know I'm late to this conversation, but I'd like to suggest my own preference as an alternative to C++/C++ Builder.
.pyc files in the Site Server installation if you don't believe me) but some of the drones at Microsoft insisted on porting it to C++ before it become Commerce Server, so no longer) have all used and are mostly still using Python in their products and/or product sites.
IF I were going to start a project that had to be developed at "RAD speed" and it had to be cross-platform (and therefore non-Microsoft) and it had to be a decent language which doesn't require a lot of useless verbosity, I would be using Python with a GUI library like wxWindows (actually, EXACTLY like wxWindows since that's my preference).
The real "problem" with Python is the choices it presents to you. There's not a real standard environment for Pytyon, so you basically need to set your operating environment up and standardize your team on it from the start. You'll need to choose a GUI library, an IDE, potentially an ORM/persistence layer, etc. But, once that's all done, using Python to develop a project presents no issues and, in the long run, is a very enjoyable experience.
As a side bonus, and as a C/C++ programmer you'll appreciate this, it's very easy to write libraries in C (and I think C++) and interface to them from Python from SWIG. Mind you, I've never actually done this myself, but I've had contact with very strong C programmers who HAVE made that claim and they had the proof to show for it. Another side bonus you get is being able to use a language that allows you to program in a way which is (usually) much closer to how most people think about the domain problems.
BTW - My above suggestion about Python and the environment, etc. probably applies just as well to other scripting languages, e.g. Perl, Lua, Ruby, etc. Python is just my preference.
Oh, and if you have problems getting people to take Python seriously, you merely need to point out that Yahoo, Google, Red Hat, and even Microsoft (Site Server 3.0 was written in Python (look for the
Seriously, is that closer to what you're looking for? I suspect you may not have desired to "stoop" to the level of a "mere scripting language" but really, they usually are the best tool for the job when it comes to building end user applications.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
be sure not to miss this link to the book that really elaborates on Python + Qt. It also details how to use BlackAdder to build database applications.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
This doesn't have to do with BC++ Builder (I love the product and wish it was updated just to through in my opinion), but Borland is in no way dead. They just released JBuilder 2005 and Delphi 2005. Although Delphi is now geared towards .NET (IMHO a terrible mistake, before .NET everything was very very fast), it is still being made.