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Keeping Computers (And People) Warm In Winter?
Grimwiz writes "Similar to a few of you, I have some of my computers on a UPS. However, the UK press have recently been warning that power supply interruptions are likely this winter and I've been pondering about upgrading my power protection from those few machines to include a few key house components. In particular, I need to ensure that the gas-powered (but electrically controlled) central heating stays working. I have reviewed a few solutions, including Solar / Photovoltaic or purchasing a generator
but they seem to be hugely more expensive than my simple UPS solution, although they do provide a much longer lasting solution than running off batteries. (A battery solution becomes quite expensive if I require more than an hours backup.)
My power requirements for a quiescent house is about 4amps @ 250V, and I'd like to survive at least 8 hours. What solutions do you recommend?"
Its like, when you're thirsty, asking for a bottle of water or asking for iodine tablets. It would be better to have both.
It really depends on how long you expect your outage to last. UPS won't last for long, yet is crucial for small burps in the supply.
For example, what if your generator runs out of gas?
Why would you be worried about a P4 getting cold?
Well, 4A @ 250v = 1000 W, for 8 hrs is 8 kWh. That's a lot, and would probably be very expensive to maintain with a battery-based solution. I'd say a generator would be the way to go.
I think you missed the whole point of his post. Oh , well. Your posts seem to do that. You ever heard the saying, "a small mind is like a microscope, able to magnify small things but unable to recieve great things?" The vast majority of your posts bring that to mind. You generally jump on some dumb little thing, completely missing the point of the topic or post.
I was in London over a winter and it never got THAT cold. We had electric heaters, but we left them off most of the time. It wouldn't be a lot of fun to go a few hours without the heaters, but it certainly wouldn't have killed us.
My guess, though, is that they want to remain a little bit comfortable during a power outage... not simply remain alive.
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RumorsDaily
Simple as that. The first option is cheap and effective, but makes a bit of noise, and will need somewhere outside to run it. The second option needs quite a bit of space, is expensive and requires a fair amount of other expenditure for charging circuits, inverters, etc. It also runs out after a while and there is nothing you can do then. If you use a generator, you can always put more petrol/diesel in, assuming you keep a decent stock.
Solution: Google for a 1500W generator (e.g.). Problem solved - next question please.
You might want to talk to an electrician who specializes in backup power systems. There are safety and electrical code issues on how circuits are switched from mains power to UPS/generator power and back again.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
It's quite likely that you don't need heat if your power interruption is only going to be 8 hours. During the Quebec ice storm we were out of electricity for 7 days. The house will stay decently warm for the first 2 days. It will be chilly for the next 2 and getting cold after that. But even after 7 days the appartement was still above freezing in weather that was always a little below freezing.
My recommendation: don't sweat 8 hours of power failiures.
That said, if you really need electricity, say to prevent perishable from going bad your best bet is a generator essentially because it's easy to refuel and keep going for days. You also get decent power in relatively small packages.
#2 is very nasty and dangerous. That's not stuff to fool with.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
The temperatures in the UK are not extreme. If your house gets cold that quickly, I would suggest to upgrade your isolation material. Or you could always use some blankets to keep you (and ..your computers) warm.
My .02 euro
What power interruptions? I think you are talking rubbish. If you aren't, then the press are. We are in a first world country with a decent infrastructure and it is extremely unlikely that we will have mass powercuts. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere and are supplied by one overhead power line, make sure your computer is on a UPS and stop worrying about it.
A latent existence
Honestly you're right - but I've found CRT monitors more effective at producing heat. Older, larger CRT monitors are basically small space heaters. A multi-monitor setup with old IBM 'powerdisplay' model CRTs will heat a dorm room VERY quickly.
or more generally, invest in good insulation for your house. It'll pay for itself in saved heating even if you never have a power-outage, and if you do lose power for a while, your house will stay warmer longer.
You, on the other hand, apparently do not know that all the electricity that is actually used by the computer, or any electrical appliance for that matter, eventually turns into heat. This means that it is physically impossible to have an inefficient electrical heater. Which, in turn, means that you're an idiot.
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
If your gas furnace's blower and exhaust fans run on electricity, which I'm pretty sure they do, you're not going to get more than a minute or two out of a UPS. Those big fans push a lot of air and draw a lot of power. If you're really worried about staying warm, get a propane space heater and a 20lb tank. It will be enough to keep a room or two warm for a couple days.
I've toyed with the idea myself, except for me, being in an old house in the US, I have oil heat.
Any motor is going to suck power like mad compared to solid state devices. Also, in general, any decent power equipment is really really expensive any way you look at it.
Most natural gas/propane generators I've seen that could easily power up the basic minimum of a house in a power outage are $3,000 in the US, uninstalled, delivered. I realize you aren't in the US, but if it's really that important, $3 grand isn't bad. You do need the space for the beast though. Probably $4 grand when you are all said and done, and a huge thing outside your window.
In the amp range you are talking, most people just go with a gas/petrol generator. A manual switch will cost you $250 in the US. Automatic switching is presumably a lot more. (Switches of course are needed with a natural gas generator.) Does not include installation and permiting, which will probably run you $200. So $1,000 for the minimum gas-powered generator.
It almost sounds like it would be easier to isolate the circuits and components you are care about and just hard-switch them over when it's required. iow, you want heat, power's out, manually switch over to a battery and inverter just for that system. Power comes back on, switch back to the main line. Similary, having a sump pump circuit and a computer circuit would accomplish the same thing, although a UPS inline would be inefficient but work to stop the computer from going down until the time you switch over.
If you really want to take advantage of the gas line pressure and availability and a centralized solution, there really is no alternative except to dish out the dollars (or pounds). A generator is really just a motor in reverse, so you could build or buy your own motor and add a governor yourself--easy in concept, but add time and trouble, easier to buy a generator than build one.
While a computer can indeed heat a room, it's hardly efficient.
You are confusing efficiency with efficacy.
I have a small, 20 minute UPS. Once the battery could no longer hold a charge, I took it out and replaced it with a higher capacity VRLA battery that I got from work.
To anyone that reads this and thinks it's a good idea to go out and buy a big massive marine deep cycle battery - don't. Most UPS systems have pretty bad cooling and if they're run at full load for an extended period of time (thanks to being connected to your giant battery) they can overheat and cause a fire. When you consider the fact this is something for standby use, the last thing you want is to come home and find your place burned down because the power went out and your UPS overheated.
Also, most UPS systems are designed to work with absorbed glass mat (AGM) batteries and may not properly charge a different type of battery. Best case, a larger capacity battery may take forever to charge, worse case, the charger won't lower the charging current to a trickle when it should and the battery will boil off its electrolyte, outgassing explosive hydrogen in the process. Tons of fun if a source of ignition is nearby. In a nutshell, use a UPS for what it is designed for - enough backup power to shut down properly or for your automatic genset to kick in.
I happen to have some experience in the matter since I've been through 3 hurricanes here in Florida. If you think you're going to be dealing with a power outage, you want a decent sized generator and a lot of petrol. Don't bother with batteries and inverters unless you want a headache instead of electricity.
Oh yeah, and to the person that asked, VRLA stands for "Valve Regulated Lead Acid".
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
"Using an Inverter is a HIGHLY inefficient power source!"
Well, yeah, but since all of his computers and appliances and everything are designed to run off AC, you *need* an inverter to get AC out of your DC batteries.
Converting all his equipment to DC would be extremely complicated, not to mention prohibitively expensive.
DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
No, you're wrong. A perfectly efficient electrical heater would turn all electricity into heat. Ironically, *all* machines are perfectly efficient heaters over a long enough time scale - go thermodynamics! You're mistaking efficiency (percent of input converted to output) for efficacy, as another poster put it. A perfectly *effective* heater would do it instantly.
Further, once your computer reaches steady-state, it is in fact distributing the entirety of its heat to the room around it. It doesn't matter that the heat might take an hour to work its way out from the processor - after an hour, the computer will constantly be radiating its full heat content. For a 'real world' example of similar behavior, look at the sun. The energy being radiated from the sun right now was actually generated several million years ago in the fusion core, and has been working its way out ever since. However, (assuming that the sun's output is unchanging on the time scale we're looking at) the energy output of the sun is equivalent to the energy generated; otherwise, the sun would continue heating.
Basically, heat has to go somewhere. Once your computers' temperature has stabilized, the radiated heat must equal the generated heat; it doesn't matter that the heat being radiated takes time to radiate, only that it does.
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I've a little confusion about exactly what you'd need a heater for when you say the cost of running a generator during the summer cooling season is $300 for a week, but other than that, I'll try and adress some things...
You mention all those things for 'survival' and 'mininum comfort'. And then you list things like a 19" TV and a computer.
First off, that's not survival. That's luxury. Surely you've seen books before. They're quite entertaining, and generally a bit more enlightening than watching CBS (or whatever people watch these days). They also don't have the irritating feature that causes them to stop working when there's no electricity.
First off, an electric-ignition furnace doesn't need constant electricity to keep it running, just for ignition. Get your house warm, and turn the generator off for a couple hours. If it gets cool during those several hours, fire it up again and start the furnace, and turn off the generator. If it is indeed warm there, I don't see what you'd need a heater for at all, and air conditioning is a luxury as well. Drink some water - it's good for you, cleans your body, keeps you cool, and doesn't consume electricity to produce. But then, if you're one of those people that have a fit when they start to sweat, I can understand your need there - for "survival".
Second, if it's cold out, you don't need to power a fridge. Take the food, put it in boxes, and put it -outdoors-. Diary products and meats will be fine, for the most part. You could also try putting it in coolers, along with some ice you've grabbed from outdoors. Conceiveably, it wouldn't be too entirely difficult to do without a fridge at all - like your grandparents did when they were younger (and possibly your parents, if you're 35+).
It's also not necessary to power a water pump in most scenarios to keep water pressure up. (provided that's the kind of well you're talking about - if you're refering to a sump well pump, that's another matter entirely...) The pressure in a line will remain sufficient to flush the toilet several times, wash your hands, and perform basic tasks a time or two in most houses. If pressure goes dead, just turn the pump on to do your thing, and then turn it off once youre done and the pressure is high again. Realistically, you could easily get by on little and infrequent power to the water pump. (My wife and I did just fine for 3 days when we moved into our last place without running water. We'd just asked the neighbors if we could use their outdoor tap, and got a ten or so buckets a day for things like dishes, flushing the toilet, and bathing.)
I'm sure you'd probably be surprised, but people 100 years ago did just fine during the hot, sweltering evenings without electricity. Before all these modern trapings, people were able to entertain themselves through the employment of their mind and bodies. They might sing, read, write, dance, talk and socialize, play cards, or any number of other things. You look at things such as TV as a luxury, but really, it provides little satisfaction compared to a high-energy social gathering - particularly one where you have to go through a little 'hardship' in order to have a good time. Maybe your neighbors' beer is warm - that just makes the 12 pack that someone manages to find in a store's freezer after the 3rd day all the more enjoyable. Years down the line, will you look back on the event and think, "man, I'm glad I had that generator", because it made you comfortable? Will you look back more fondly on the event than those that got together with their neighbors, sat around, and had a break from the monotony of modern life? "Hey, Bill. Remember 4 years ago during Frances when John got that cold 12 pack of shitty Miller Lite, and how good it tasted all the same? That was a great time."
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