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Fuel Cell Powered Scooter

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the alternative-ride dept.

!Freeky2BGeeky writes "In an article by Fuel Cell Works, Samsung Engineering announced that they've developed a Hydrogen-based scooter which can go 140Km on 6 liters of hydrogen. The downside? The process that produces the hydrogen uses a component in short supply."

26 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. uh oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The downside is that there are only about 300 million tons of sodium borate worldwide, located mostly in Tibet, and that annual global production of sodium borohydride stands at 10,000 tons, it added.

    well, we know where Bush will be sending the troops to next year.

    mods: it's a joke

    1. Re:uh oh by halowolf · · Score: 3, Funny
      mods: it's a joke

      I'm sorry all humour is forfeit from a joke when you explain that it is one.

    2. Re:uh oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      well, we know where Bush will be sending the troops to next year.

      Do you mean to secure the worlds sodium borate supply, or to prevent this source being used?

    3. Re:uh oh by foniksonik · · Score: 3, Funny

      Don't worry, as long as China has a lock on Tibet it's not a problem... I mean G.W.'s father did spew all over that Chinese consulate guy, I mean that's a bond that can't be broken... remember in junior high when your best friend beat you up or you stood up to him? Throwing up on someone is the same thing... total bonding...

      Bam!

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    4. Re:uh oh by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Borax is a sodium borate, and it's cheap enough to throw away with the waste water when we wash clothes. While there is not a lot of borates in the world, there are several highly concentrated deposits that are easy to mine.

      It's be obvious to experts for a long time that we may end up regretting using up so much of our borate deposits washing clothes, but given a free market economy and the time value of money, no one has found a way to stop it.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
  2. hmm... by NightDragon · · Score: 5, Funny

    What happens when lightning strikes it? Does it explode in a big fireball as radio reporters scream "oh the humanity!"?

    --
    -ND
  3. Lots of ways to make hydrogen by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There are lots of ways to make hydrogen. Probably the best is to electrolyze it from water using electricity provided by solar power or another clean means of power.

    I suspect that an internal-combustion engine such as one already used in production motorcycles could be tuned to burn a hydrogen mix, and that 6 liters (at what pressure? liquid?) for that mileage is not really news. Indeed, there may not be much new science here and the release mostly propoganda.

    Bruce

    --
    Bruce Perens.
    1. Re:Lots of ways to make hydrogen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The primary feat of this machine is the way the hydrogen is stored on board. For that they use sodium borohydride, which is in short supply.

    2. Re:Lots of ways to make hydrogen by C10H14N2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Shell station by my house already sells hydrogen at the pumps.

      http://www.csnews.com/csnews/reports_analysis/fe at ure_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000717936

      Where do I order one of these again?

    3. Re:Lots of ways to make hydrogen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just for clarification. Quote: The newly-developed technology uses a water-based solution of sodium borohydride, made from sodium borate, to produce hydrogen gas.

      That means they put the hydrogen "into" sodium borate, creating sodium borohydride. A catalytic reaction on board the vehicle then "produces" the hydrogen. Stanford has a nice PDF on using sodium borohydride for hydrogen storage.

  4. It's either the infrasture.... by novakyu · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...or simply supply of fuel.

    From the article: The newly-developed technology uses a water-based solution of sodium borohydride, made from sodium borate, to produce hydrogen gas.

    The downside is that there are only about 300 million tons of sodium borate worldwide, located mostly in Tibet, and that annual global production of sodium borohydride stands at 10,000 tons, it added.

    So, other than the fact that it produces less pollution (I would hesitate to say less "green gas", though since vapor is a green gas) it has no advantage over gasoline powered scooter.

    In fact, have we yet seen any viable hydrogen-powered vehicle? I thought most models/prototypes we have so far were less energy efficient than gasoline powered cars (even with infrastructure to provide hydrogen nation-,world-wide, we have to have a way of generating them, and electrolysis is simply not the most efficient way (and certainly less so than internal combustion) way to get hydrogen).

    1. Re:It's either the infrasture.... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The problem is not efficiency, it's storage. Liquid hydrogen lives in a dewar at cryogenic temperatures and high pressure, and will outgas right through the walls of its container. The most effective storage strategy might be to synthesize a liquid fuel with the hydrogen and then burn that.

      Efficiency is not as important as the fact the fuel won't be depleted and burns cleanly. There is lots of energy in inconvenient places like deserts, if you can figure out how to make the fuel there and ship it elsewhere, it's a win.

      Bruce

      --
      Bruce Perens.
    2. Re:It's either the infrasture.... by orzetto · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I thought most models/prototypes we have so far were less energy efficient than gasoline powered cars

      Fortunately you thought wrong. The real roadblock is the price of fuel cells, which everybody expects to plummet once mass-production is commenced (today most production is pretty much manual), and of course the missing infrastructure.

      electrolysis is simply not the most efficient way

      Hard to substantiate. Current efficiencies in electrolysis processes rank up to 90% energy efficiency. This is however the "reported" one, which might be away from the standard operating point of equipment; 80% and 94% are reported here. Compare with the 20-30% of internal combustion engines, which does normally not account for dead time in queues, where some gas is being consumed, which does not happen in fuel cells as there are no major moving parts to keep spinning.

      Of course there are other considerations than just efficiency, as usability of current distribution networks (which favours the use of liquid fuels as methanol, formic acid), presence of existing technologies (reforming of natural gas, oil and hydrocarbons in general).

      Remark: efficiency is often given (faultily) as the ratio of Work obtained / Available enthalpy ("W/Delta_H"), which is BS: Gibbs' free energy should be used, "W/Delta_G". This causes electrolysis processes to look a bit better than they atually are, since the reaction enthalpy is ca. 286 kJ/mol, while the Gibbs' free energy is less, about 237 kJ/mol. Therefore, we actually need a minimum of 237 kJ to split a mole of water. Don't be surprised when someone will claim "over 100% efficiency in electrolysis", because that is well possible if you use the enthalpy definition.

      --
      Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
  5. SODIUM BOROHYDRIDE by ndevice · · Score: 3, Interesting

    sodium borohydride doesn't look like a very nice chemical

    1. Re:SODIUM BOROHYDRIDE by squoozer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod or teach the world some chemistry. hmmm teach some chemistry I think.

      When it comes to chemicals please please please don't think have a knee jerk reaction and claim that all chemicals are evil and sent by satan himself.

      Everything around you is a chemical so to say you are scared of chemicals is pretty stupid. Further more to say a chemical is bad or nasty is pretty silly as you are attributing a bunch of atoms a human personality.

      Sodium Borohydride is a faily commonly used chemical and for the most part it is completely safe. There are no really special handling requirements (for lab scale use) although if memory serves it's generally best not to get it wet but even then it's generally only a fairly quck reaction. I'm not saying that you can eat the stuff just correctly managed it's safe.

      There are a few really dangerous chemicals such as nerve gasses that require very special treatment and you really don't want to be messing with them but most chemicals are quite inert.

      To give you some perspective have a look at the MSDS data for cadmium. You no doubt use NiCad batteries and I think you will be somewaht shocked. Do you have a mercury thermometer. That mercury is dangerous stuff. How about metholated spirit. If it was a toss up between eating 1g of sodium borohydride or drinking 1ml of meths I would probably go with the sodium borohydride and yet you probably splash meths about.

      Ok that's enough chemistry for one day.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
  6. Chrysler beat 'em to it 3 years ago! by Kevin+Burtch · · Score: 3, Interesting


    Scooter?
    Chrysler made a minivan that used the exact same chemicals and principles 3 years ago.

    The interesting part is, in all of the articles I've seen about the Chrysler implimentation, they state that the largest reserves are in the western US... removing our dependence on foreign oil. This is the first time I've seen Tibet mentioned as the primary source of the chemical.

    --
    - Preferences: Solaris 10 (servers), Ubuntu (desktops), Solaris 11 (personal servers) -
  7. Sodium Borohydride by boatboy · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm not a chemistry buff, but this lecture from a Perdue chemistry prof describes the discovery of sodium borohydride, the compound used to generate hydrogen for this thing.

  8. Acetylene powered scooter? by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The method of producing hydrogen kind of reminds me of the way acetylene lamps used to work; dripping water onto calcium carbide releases the gas. No environmental benefits though, since you release CO2 when you make the carbide *and* when you burn the acetylene, which (being highly unsaturated) has a high carbon content and is far dirtier than gasoline. Acetylene has a notoriously smoky flame unless you burn it in pure oxygen, as in an oxy-acetylene torch.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  9. Hydrogen from Sodium Borohydrate.... Patents ?. by Gopal.V · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Would this be affected by the patent on catalysed reaction to produce hydrogen (using a sodium borohydrate solution ?).

    The fuel source itself is not very newsworthy. It was around in early 2000 as well (named the Millenium Cell. Of course, it does not explode unlike the CNG powered ones. Recently (1-2 month) back we had a blaze up near our office when a Truck rear-ended a gas powered car (it's very common these days) and the gas tank ruptured, exploded and threw the car's rear door about 3 feet into truck's engine (breaking through 1/2 inch metal sheet). Thankfully only the driver was in the car and he was saved by the rear seat from the explosion.

    This is not a viable alternative. But, Hey .. it was done because some guy said "We CAN". And that's reason enough :)

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
    1. Re:Hydrogen from Sodium Borohydrate.... Patents ?. by The_Dougster · · Score: 3, Informative

      From what I could gather, the regeneration process involves electrolyzing the molten salts. This is not an easy or convenient process and has tons of problems, but it is doable on an industrial basis.

      This chemical, Sodium Borohyrdate, is right up there with Sodium Hydride and Lithium Aluminum Hydride insamuch as it is a tremendously powerfull base. This stuff makes industrial strength liquid Drano look like water, and the only nice thing about the Boron compound is that it "supposedly" requires the presence of a catalyst before it explodes, ostensibly making it much more friendly to use. NaH and LiAlH are extremely dangerous and are used in organic synthesis, for example to turn something like vegetable oil directly into something like octane. Reactions are carried out in an ice water bath and in very small amounts.

      In all practicality, this chemical is probably a bit too dangerous for public energy storage and transmission. Consider if your car ran on concentrated Nitric Acid instead of gasoline... its a similar scenario. Calcuim Carbide (produces Acetylene) is probably a lot safer than this stuff IMO.

      Just like Hydrazine and Dinitrogen Pentoxide, theoretically they make an awesome medium for energy storage; however, untrained people really shouldn't be allowed in the same building as that stuff.

      --
      Clickety Click ...
  10. Hydrogen is not the answer by little1973 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hydrogen is an energy carrier and not an energy source. Currently, hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels or natural gas. Electrolyzing hydrogen from water is very expensive. We need very efficient solar panels for the hydrogen economy to start.

    Biodiesel looks more promising. There are some algae which contains 50% oil. Here's a link:
    http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alg e.html

    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
    1. Re:Hydrogen is not the answer by kfg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We need very efficient solar panels for the hydrogen economy to start.

      In other words, it wouldn't be a hydrogen economy at all, but a solar economy, and I'd cheer for that.

      Ra, Ra, Ra!

      KFG

  11. Boron as a fuel, by tonywestonuk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So, can we not manufacture sodium-Borate, from Sodium, and Boron?... So, after doing a few Googles in search of the answer, I came across this page, that isn't entirely unrelated

    http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mqolson/papertwo.ht ml

    This is about using Boron itself, as a fuel. Apparently, Boron will burn, however, by-products of burning is just Boron - Oxide, which can be turned back to boron. The energy density of this process is > gasoline.... Tony.

  12. Re:great! by orzetto · · Score: 3, Informative
    there's just not enough sodium borohydride in the entire world to produce enough fuel for this to work on a large scale.

    The question is not that important. Sodium borohydride (NaBH4) is made up of sodium (quite common, as in sodium chloride), hydrogen (common too) and boron is fairly common too, according to this link. The fact you don't find steel, carbon fiber or many modern materials in nature does not mean it is a problem. NaBH4 is supposed to be a carrier of energy, not a source: it is converted to sodium borate during use, and this is later regenerated to sodium borohydride.

    --
    Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
  13. So, my bicycle... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    can go 140 km on about 6 L of Coke.

  14. Don't think that's accurate by SimianOverlord · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The sodium borate is being used somewhat like an enzyme, in that it facilitates a reaction but remains ultimately unchanged. It can be reconverted back into sodium borohydrate. So a fuel cell of this type doesn't need any extra sodium borate once created. And thankfully doesn't make any sodium hydroxide, which is a pretty nasty chemical.

    See here.

    Anyway, fuel cells will make cities better places by removing gasoline fumes, but when you consider they have to use conventional power sources ie nuclear/coal/natural gas/oil power to ultimately charge, their environmental credentials don't look so great. Still, it could make a great difference to the pleasantness of city life; I've noticed an afternoon in London gives me black bogies all day.

    --
    Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche