Slashdot Mirror


High Court Agrees to Hear File-Sharing Dispute

stkpogo pastes: "The Supreme Court agreed Friday to consider whether two Internet file-sharing services may be held responsible for their customers' online swapping of copyrighted songs and movies. Justices will review a lower ruling in favor of Grokster Ltd. and StreamCast Networks Inc., which came as a blow to recording companies and movie studios seeking to stop the illegal distribution of their works." Grokster won in the lower courts, but the studios are appealing. This case, when finally decided, will be equivalent to the Betamax case 20 years ago which ensured that VCRs were legal.

8 of 297 comments (clear)

  1. The farce of "loss" due to file sharing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The owners of copyrighted material often say they suffer "harm" and "economic loss" resulting from illegal copying. Like most arguments put forth by copyright enthusiasts, it holds little water - for several reasons:

    The claim is mostly inaccurate because it presupposes that the copying individual would otherwise have bought a copy from the publisher. That is occasionally true, but more often false; and when it is false, the claimed loss does not occur.

    The claim is partly misleading because the word "loss" suggests events of a very different nature--events in which something they have is taken away from them. For example, if the bookstore's stock of books were burned, or if the money in the register got torn up, that would really be a "loss." We generally agree it is wrong to do these things to other people. But when your friend avoids the need to buy a copy of a book, the bookstore and the publisher do not lose anything they had. A more fitting description would be that the bookstore and publisher get less income than they might have got. The same consequence can result if your friend decides to play bridge instead of reading a book. In a free market system, no business is entitled to cry "foul" just because a potential customer chooses not to deal with them.

    The claim is begging the question because the idea of "loss" is based on the assumption that the publisher "should have" got paid. That is based on the assumption that copyright exists and prohibits individual copying. But that is just the issue at hand: what should copyright cover? If the public decides it can share copies, then the publisher is not entitled to expect to be paid for each copy, and so cannot claim there is a "loss" when it is not. In other words, the "loss" comes from the copyright system; it is not an inherent part of copying. Copying in itself hurts no one.

  2. Apples and oranges by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This case is very different from the Universal v. Sony "Betamax" decision, and we're not doing ourselves a favor by constantly comparing the two.

    In the Betamax case, the central issue was over whether using the technology of a VCR to timeshift broadcast programs violated the copyright law, and the court said it wasn't a violation. If it was a violation, using a VCR to record TV would be illegal, and Sony and other VCR makers would be making devices that would have a primarily use that was illegal.

    In this case, however, there's no question about whether the use of the technology is legal. Using P2P to upload and download copyrighted works without the copyright owner's permission is illegal. The question is over liabilty... is Grokster liable because people are using their software for an illegal use, when the software can both be used for legal and illegal files.

    What's at stake here isn't the legality of P2P, but a dangerous question for software writers. Are the makers of software liable for what their users do with the software? So far they're not and hopefully it's going to stay that way.

    1. Re:Apples and oranges by tonsofpcs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The use of the technology is legal, according to the Universal v. Sony decision; The use of it for wrongdoing [illegal things] is illegal [duh]. And btw, saying comparing the two won't help us isn't very on track. The 'Betamax' case was decided to say that Sony was not responsible for what the consumer did with its products, the user was; this case is to see if P2P network owners are responsible for what their users do with their products -- Where is the major difference?? Furthermore, I believe the Supreme Court will reference this case if the question of initial leaglity shows up (which it may well do).

    2. Re:Apples and oranges by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What is absolutely the same in both cases is that the media industries fought the new technology tooth and nail until the some new industry (eg video rental) showed them how to make money - then their position changed 180 degrees.

      The only reason there's a fight is because right now we're in that "limbo period" before someone figures out how to make everyone profit on the new technology. It will happen - some will argue that it's happening already because p2p increases interest in music/video and this ultimately yields more sales. Even if that's 100% true it'll take some years for the tards at [MP|RI]AA to accept it.

      You can't fight technology. Figure out how to make money with it or STFU.

  3. Maybe I'm over simplifying stuff... by AlexMidn1ght · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but are phone companies responsable if you use a phone line to commit a crime? Are car and gun compagnies responsable if you rob a bank with a gun and use a car to get away? It's hard to prove that filesharing networks are solely there to exchange copyrighted materials and nothing else.

  4. The real reason for losses? by Ctrl+Alt+De1337 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One thing I almost never hear in conjunction with the controversy on the record labels losing money due to decreased CD sales is the fact that the economy began to go downhill at around the same time that the CD sales began to fall. True, this coincidentally was also the time when file sharing became popular, but I should think that the bursting of the economic bubble would have more to do with the losses. CDs are a luxury item, basically, and when people have fewer discretionary dollars (as what happens when the economy goes sour) they quit buying as many luxury items. When the economy is up, people might just go out and buy that new CD even though there's probably only two or three good songs on it. When the economy is down, it has to be a damn good album or a person's favorite artist to get that CD sold. Upscale stores saw hits in 2001 (blamed on the economy), upscale restaurants saw hits in 2001 (blamed on the economy), and record companies saw hits in 2001 (not blamed on the economy). The logic doesn't follow.

  5. Tragedy of the commons by RealProgrammer · · Score: 3, Insightful
    • Copying in itself hurts no one

    Copying hurts everyone, only just a little.

    The intent of copyright is to encourage progress in the arts and sciences by extending to creators of a work the right to control its distribution. This is no different today than it was in times past.

    There was no way to physically control copying of a book 200 years ago. No one really cared whether their copy of a book was from the rightful publisher, unless the spelling were bad or something.

    Your logic is accurate, but it misses the point completely because you're fighting a straw argument. Copyright is not intended merely to pay people for work they've created. It's intended encourage people to produce works in the hopes that they may profit, and to support them while they are producing more.

    In the classic example, Daniel Webster supported his family for 20 years on the proceeds from his speller while he compiled his famous dictionary. In publishing a dictionary, he inspired and aided countless writers and publishers. Probably you and I would not be reading /. were it not for those two works; in fact, they were so important to the early American educational system that without them we might not be reading English.

    But forget money for a second and think about Free software. Suppose it were no longer against the law to copy people's creative work however you wanted. Why, you could download a bunch of source code and put your own name on it. Wow, the AC Compiler. AC Linux. AC UNIX. AC Office.Org. And so on.

    What would the authors of those packages do? They'd quit writing Free software, that's what. Would *you* write something for someone else to claim? I wouldn't.

    And the musicians whose songs you think you have a right to copy would quit recording and get real jobs. Authors would quit writing, sculptors would no longer sculpt, except in their spare time away from those meaningful jobs at Kroger and General Electric.

    And the world would be a gray, dull, unamusing place.

    Copying without due recompense eventually hurts us all.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
    1. Re:Tragedy of the commons by bitwiseNomad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What would the authors of those packages do? They'd quit writing Free software, that's what. Would *you* write something for someone else to claim? I wouldn't.

      And the musicians whose songs you think you have a right to copy would quit recording and get real jobs. Authors would quit writing, sculptors would no longer sculpt, except in their spare time away from those meaningful jobs at Kroger and General Electric.


      I don't think you understand the economics of the situation. When you ask an actual artist whether they think P2P hurts them, you are not guaranteed to get the same answer each time. Many artists don't care or even think it is a good thing, and many artists percieve it as hurting their overall sales. However, if you ask distributors of music and movies the same question, you will get a nearly unanimous answer. Why do you think this is the case?

      The issue of copyright infringement is a distribution issue, as you pointed out. The difference now is that certain things can be very easily redistributed at no cost. The reason no one cared about someone copying a book in the past is that it was hard to do it, and in order to do it with any sort of economic impact, you would need to either 1.) employ a lot of people or 2.) have special equipment. On the other hand, it is easy to copy information nowadays. Whether you think copy protection and DRM restrictions are good or bad things, one fact remains true. Both of those things try to impose artificial scarcity on products which are not naturally scarce anymore (read: information, bits and bytes). That is why distributors are so pissed off but artists don't seem to care so much.

      P2P networks put distributors in a position in which they can no longer control the supply chains for their products. DRM and copy protection schemes are methods they use to regain this control, but whether they are present or not in a market, the demand for the artist's skill will still be present.

      Your argument assumes that the current methods of distribution are the only systems in which artists will be able to subsist. Even if our current distribution scheme goes away, the demand for music, movies, video games, etc will still exist. Artists will still be able to produce and will continue to make money at it, but the distribution system will more than likely not be one that you are used to. There are business models out there that take piracy into account, i.e. the amount of money that a business makes is not dependant on the amount of piracy by definition. Said another way, your argument only makes sense if you assume we have to use the current system or no system at all. That is simply not true.

      Suppose it were no longer against the law to copy people's creative work however you wanted. Why, you could download a bunch of source code and put your own name on it. Wow, the AC Compiler. AC Linux. AC UNIX. AC Office.Org. And so on.

      Please don't confuse law with economics. They don't always go hand in hand. The situation we're dealing with is an economic one, not a legal one. Filesharing networks will not get rid of copyright, and so the first part of your comment has no bearing on the discussion.

      Now on to the second part.

      First off, if I understand the GPL correctly, it is perfectly legal to redistribute GPL'd software as your own. Many people have done this, including all of the Debian-flavors-of-the-week. Second off (and this is the important point), you've missed the entire point of free software. GPL and BSD-style Free software is meant to be copied. Business models that revolve around free software *assume* that copying *will* and *does* occur on an *hourly* basis. If the makers of free software really feel like the redistribution of their software hurts them, then tell me why they themselves set up and maintain mirrors of their own software.

      The fact of the matter is that busines

      --

      Light is filtering down from above. Would you like to use DIVE?