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Advice for Returning to School After Long Break?
arohann asks: "A few months ago, I quit my secure, well-paying (but boring) job as a software engineer in India and have been applying to graduate schools in the US, Canada and the UK. My aim is to get back to computer engineering studies (my undergrad major) as a grad student. However, after a 5 year break from academics I'm not sure about my decision and could do with some advice from Slashdot users."
"Here are some of the things that I'd like to know:
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
Americans want to get out of school and into the workplace and Indians want to get out of the workplace and back in school.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Mature students have pretty good track records. What they may lack or have forgotten in skills, they make up for in attitude and general savvy.
So don't be intimidated. Sure, you'll have some catching up to do, but it won't be that onerous.
1. Start drinking now to build up a tolerance. 2. If you're married, get divorced; your marriage will not survivce. 3. Lot's O' Condoms. 4. Did I mention drinking? 5. ??? 6. Profit!
Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
I just completed a professional degree program after several years away from school. Here are a few nuggets of advice:
Good luck, and make sure to do all the readings and homework this time around.
However, I have to say as a piece of advice, that you are wasting your time going to grad school in CS unless your intent is to be a professor or a heavy researcher. I think the best graduate degree for a CS undergrad is probably an MBA, at least as far as earning potential. If your interests are purely theoretical and money is not something you ultimately desire out of your career, then by all means continue.
Is it just me, or did some genius just post a troll on the main page?
Usually in fields such as electrical engineering, students are encouraged to go out and get 2-5 years work experience before returning to school for a masters or phd. Your work experience is not a liability at all - it is an asset to understand how things are really done in the world. You also know what work is really like, so the courseload at a regular university should be bearable. Personally, I think that disciplines that do not encourage people to spend a few years in the work environment before getting post graduate degrees are going to produce a lot of pie in the sky thinkers who can't cut it in real life.
I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
Two years ago, I did what you did. I left my good paying job as a project manager at a high tech firm to go back to engineering school. It was scary but well worth it! To answer your questions:
;). I spent a few months doing a major review of everything I thought would be necessary to get me to the level where I should be if I were just coming out of undergrad. I also found that I wasn't as quick as some of the younger students in my lab, but what I lacked in speed, I made up in discipline and focus. :)
1. For graduate admissions, at least at Carnegie Mellon, they send the files over to the professors based on your interests. The professors then look at your background to see if you are a good fit. In my case, they considered both my academic background as well as my industry experience. In fact, my industry experience helped me.
2. Not sure about US vs. UK vs. Canada, but what I can tell you is that a M.S. in engineering is more than sufficient if you only want to work in industry. A Ph.D. is good if you want to teach and if you want to lead a research team.
3. The biggest problem I had was all in the mental realm. I forgot most of what I learned in undergrad (all that funky calculus stuff, physics, etc
step 1: create a global free market economy
step 2: get fat off the work of foreign workers paid much less that you
step 3: complain when your boss discovers that the free market apllies to your job too.....
step 4: post on slashdot about it, instead of looking at why it happened.
I didn't know anyone who could give recommendations (all my professors had either moved on or retired), so I went back to my old school as a master's student for 1 year, impressed the profs, and got recommendations which (together with decent SATs) got me into Purdue.
I found that living on a small income was hard, but the studying was actually easier than it had been the first time through. In particular, math was easier to learn. That was a good thing, since econ and stats take more and different math than undergraduate EE.
I never finished my Ph.D (I'm ABD), but I did get an MS in Statistics along the way, and I'm working as an economist. Finishing would have been do-able, but didn't seem worth the cost in student loan debt and time.
If you can get accepted at a school, you can do it, if you can fund it. If they aren't offering you an assistantship with free tuition and a stipend of more than $10,000 per year, keep looking. Schools recruit undergrads, they hire graduate students.
See what I've been reading.
Step 1: Demand a policy of inflationary government fiscal programs and a welfare state. Step 2: Watch as your wages go up, but ability to compete in an international labor market plummets. Step 3: Complain when companies do the rational thing and opt for cheaper labor. Step 4: Mock someone for trying to better themselves because you're bitter and unable to compete for wage rates.
I recently returned to get a pair of Masters degrees five years after my Bachelors.
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
They tend to view it quite favorably. Some programs insist upon it, though I doubt that would be the case for Comp Sci. Work experience is a big plus to admission committees in my experience.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
Can't answer this one.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
The biggest adjustment is getting used to not having a paycheck anymore. It's hard to adjust your standard of living. Otherwise, I found school to be much more enjoyable once I was older. I was a better student, cared more about the material, knew what questions to ask, and could more easily work with the professors.
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
I just took out student loans to cover the whole thing. Interest rates are so low right now it's almost free money. I have some student loans as low as 1.5% interest, and in the US the interest is tax deductible up to a certain amount. My only regret is that I didn't take more money out because the cost of capital is so low. (If you don't know what cost of capital means, learn! It's one of the most valuable things to know about) If you get some sort of working stipend or grant, that is great and you should take it but I'd still recommend getting student loans. Throw the extra into an investment/savings account and whatever's left over is cheap money you can build savings upon. (Yes I realize this is borderline with regard to the terms of the loan but no one will check unless you default)
and not "insightful" (as it is currently modded), but I, too, left a well paying job to go back to grad school. In my case, the job wasn't even boring, and my employer was great (gave me a laptop computer as a going away present), but I wanted to expand my horizons.
There are far more important things in life then money, and the sooner one figures that out, the closer one will come to having a fulfulling life. Of course, this goes back to the maturity equation someone else has already alluded to.
As to some of the original questions - most US schools will look kindly on relevant work experience (even - or perhaps especially - if that work experience is only tangentially relevant). Diversity is still the watchword here, and that includes diversity of experience. Since most grad students (at my school - UVA) have little to no work experience and are in their early to mid 20's upon entering grad school, the older, more experienced applicant has the benefit of bringing diversity. Additionally, as others have pointed out you likely have additional maturity (e.g., well-defined work ethic) that will give you more of an advantage in the course work than the disadvantage of being away from it awhile.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I did grad school after several years in the working world. My advice: take some good solid math classes on the side before beginning grad school. I had forgotten alot of Diff Eq, and my linear algebra was weak. The math courses also helped my confidence. You can amaze your new colleagues by explaining the difference between eigenvalues, eigenvectors, and eigenfunctions!!
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
Haha, I checked out the posts to this article because I wondered how many people would be complaining like that. What I was thinking was more along the lines of:
You took my job, now I can't afford to send my kid to college, but it turns out he/she was put on the waiting list in favor of the software engineers from India that took my job! What will they take next, will I wake up to find one of them sleeping with my wife?
I did this in 2001. I took a BS from a top US engineering school in a combination of CS/Psychology in the early 90s, worked for 9 years, started two companies, made some money, but found myself especially towards the end of the boom getting too far away from what I found interesting.
So I went back for CS, and am currently in the process of completing an MS thesis, which should also carry me into a PhD.
It's been a *great* experience, but not without hiccups...
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
The better (top 40-50 in the US) graduate schools exist primarily to create more professors. So your re-entry to the graduate community will be evaluated in academic terms. Despite the greater integration of the commercial and academic worlds through the Internet, academia still is an ivory tower that operates according to its own rules.
Meaning: the better schools generally don't consider work experience relevant *at all*. Unless you were doing *research* or research-type work- had papers or other relevant public/peer reviewed published materials to show for your time- work experience is irrelevant. In fact, it's unhelpful, because you spent productive years *not* doing research.
Don't even bother to submit recommendations from employers, unless those employers themselves have recognized academic credentials (meaning, a professorship. PhDs don't count.).
Put another way, I found that schools considered my *undergraduate* academic performance- from *10 years* prior- to be more relevant in their evaluations than *any* of the innovative, creative professional work I had done since.
This is startling and dismaying, but you'll get over it.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
I can't speak for Canada or the UK, but MS work in the US is viewed in academic circles as *professional*, almost like a trade school. It is of course possible to do research as an MS student, but at most schools there is a class distinction between MS and PhD students that limits access to professors or funding or other academic resources. Most schools expect MS students to *have* another job, while for PhD students, getting a PhD *is* their job.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
It's been a tremendously *positive* experience for me. However, it was a challenge adjusting after not being in an academic environment for 10 years.
The biggest adjustment for me, frankly, was ego. I came in as an MS student, so it was a challenge coming in at the bottom of the academic food chain, after being at the top in the professional world for the last several years. But humility is a virtue, so I consider this to be a great adjustment to have to go through.
The second biggest adjustment was working/learning style. In academia, especially in research, you get points for completeness and correctness, while in the professional world, you get points for efficiency.
The strategies you learn and the risks you take in the professional world to be efficient, to get quickly to market, to employ FUD effectively to thwart your competitors and deal with the crazy needs of clients/customers- these are the wrong strategies and behaviors in the academic world.
There of course is hand-waving and FUD and all that in academia, and a strong competitive dynamic (getting papers into conferences, etc)- but the way the game is played, as I found it at least, is completely different.
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assis
There is no such society anywhere and there won't ever be. Imagine a society with no advantages of class, inheritance, or accident of history. Without zeroing everyone out, your perfect society is really just a noble class that will seek to perpetuate itself and keep down those talented impoverished who threaten it.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White