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Patents and Open Source Biotech

sebFlyte writes "Since Slashdot readers seem to be interesting in the issues and problems surrounding software patents, I thought they might be interested to see that Wired is running an interesting piece on patents in Biotech and the way that they can hold up important research, and how there are clear parallels with the open source software community with the way that advocates of openness are trying to solve these problems."

11 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. Simple solution ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Exclude living systems and their components (e.g., genes) from the patent system. Period. End of story.

    For those who whine, "But then there won't be any incentive to innovate!" ... GMAFB. Innovation in biotech (and in pretty much every technical field) is done by scientists, not moneymen. And the scientists will continue to do their jobs, whether for prestige or a desire to aid their fellow man or just out of sheer intellectual curiosity. Most of them will do it, BTW, in university labs, not corporate "R&D" shops, just the way they always have.

    If the suits want to make a profit, they'll have to work a little harder to figure out how. Watch me weep in sympathy.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:Simple solution ... by pbody · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not that I'm a lover of the patent system, but the scientists do not work independently of the moneymen. Government grants only go so far, but the push to patent is VERY strong in the universities. Which personally sucks for me (my field is theoretical physics), and even though I don't do patents, but I still have to justify the work to the moneymen on a regular basis :( We're (sadly?) way past the times when a person/group who wants to do experimental work can just do their jobs without big $$ support.

    2. Re:Simple solution ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, to me, this pretty much proves my point. My field is comp. bio., so I'm a little closer to the direct money flow than you are -- but honestly, neither of us should have to justify our work by next quarter's returns. Fundamentally, I believe that scientific research is a public good, like roads and national defense: it may or may not produce an immediate, quantifiable profit, but the nation as a whole (including the economy) is clearly better off when it is properly funded. In other words, yes, damn it, they should just pay us for being brilliant. ;)

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Simple solution ... by syphax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      2. A man must use his mind in order to survive.

      So must a lion.

      Since survival is the process of maintaining life, it follows from these that a man must have the right to the products of his mind - the right to own property.

      This is what is known as a logical leap. Why must ownership of ideas be *exclusive*, as the parent seems to suggest (i.e. if I own an idea, you can't own the same one)? Ideas are not like diamonds; the replacement cost of sharing an idea is nil.

      If you deny that men can own their ideas, then you deny that men can survive by ideas, and you deny the right of man to survive at all.

      Last I checked, no lion owned a patent for "How to identify, kill, and eat aged wildebeasts," and yet somehow they are able to implement said concept and survive. Curious.

      Patent and copyrights represent a pragmatic balance of power between creators and consumers, nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that they inhibit creators for borrowing from existing ideas, they can be problematic.

      There are no first-principle metaphysical requirements for ownership of ideas to be exclusive, as the parent suggests.

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    4. Re:Simple solution ... by i_should_be_working · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yes, it does suck to have to justify all resarch and make it sound like it's going to be usefull/profitable in the near term. In my group we have to make our resarch sound like an essential step on the road to a quantum computer, but to us it's just research.

      But that's different than having to worry about whether your research infringes on a patent. I think what the parent post meant was that biologists and scientists in general don't want to keep their research closed and patented in order to make money themselves (Funny how the patent pushers go on about needing patents to provide incentive and progression when scientists know that science has to be open to flourish). I guess a tough situation could arise when your funding agency or university is insisting that you get a patent when you know it will be a hindrince to your field.

      So maybe there should be a law. Absolutely no patents in general blue sky research. And if that lowers funding and slows down resarch, well it won't slow it down as much as this patent problem could.

      Only in some sick bizzaro world can I imagine having to stop my research because it infinged on a patent, but it actually happened to a professor at my uni. He does geological resarch and was using a method of determining the density of earth at very low depths. He uses it for basic 'what is the earth made of and what's it doing' type research, but apparently some company that prospects for oil had a very vague patent on the general method and is now trying to stop him from doing his research.

      What a hateful thing

      So I agree with you that big money and even big corporations sometimes have to be involved. I just wish patents weren't.

    5. Re:Simple solution ... by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If people don't have the natural desire to understand themselves enough to innovate in this field, to hell with 'em..

      Understanding requires money, manpower, and specialized resources. We are far past the days when a man like Pasteur could make a significant advance on his own.

      The Gates Foundation alone has spend over $100 million researching AIDS.

      If someone discovers a way to cure me, or augment me, or terrorize the living hell out of me I don't want that technique monopolized.

      But you will take the cure if you can get it. That is something I can speak to from personal experience. The drugs and technologies were there when I needed them because someone saw profit to be made in their development. I'll not complain about outliving their patents.

  2. Ho hum by jd · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Biotech is filled with patents and IP. There are patents for gene sequences, for chrissakes. Because patents (unlike copyright) cover even accidental duplication, this essentially is a ban on evolution. Great for the Bible Belt, but not so great for the species.


    Interestingly, you can download sizable chunks of the gene sequences for cows, chickens, humans, the SARS virus... Clearly, the researchers who have made such information available are Communists, for not protecting their IP rights and demanding the first-born from all who would see such information.


    Pathetic. The bulk of serious research is done in an open environment. If you want to see quality, verifiable, useful information, you don't look in the patent office. You look up the research papers that have been published and are either freely available or damn cheap.


    To the best of my knowledge, the only person known to have successfully learned something from patents was Einstein. But if you look at his best work, you look at the thought experiments, the observations of the ordinary, the stuff that is simply not ownable. THAT is where Real Science and Real R&D takes place.

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    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  3. SUMMARY OF PROPER /. GROUPTHINK by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nothing should ever be patented, trademarked, or copyrighted.

    Unless I wrote or invented it.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  4. Re:living systems and their components by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good questions. My answers would be, in order:

    Viruses: maybe, maybe not, but close enough for legal purposes.

    Bacteria: clearly yes.

    Prions (self-reproducing proteins, such as the presumed causative agent for CJD): um, er ... let me think about that one for a while.

    Pint of beer, plastic, etc.: no, and I don't have any problem with anyone patenting a specific formulation of beer or plastic or anything else. It's the yeast, bacteria, or even individual genes used in the process that IMO should be off limits for patents. Kind of like, if you use a screwdriver to build a new widget, you should be able to patent the widget -- but not the "tool for tightening of helically threaded metal attachment units" you used to build the thing.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  5. open source biotech already exists... sort of by mulescent · · Score: 2, Insightful
    it is important to point out that the whole academic publishing endeavour is a lot like open source. when you publish something publicly, it becomes part of the public domain and therefore unpatentable by anyone. research scientists (even the ones in corporations) depend on being able to access this vast weath of knowledge

    its true that the US congress has gone a bit far in extending patent rights (first drugs had 5 year patents, then 10, and now some have 15 years). this has created high drug prices and, to some extent, diminished (short term) competition between drug companies. patents are important, though, because drug companies have to profit from making drugs.

    the academic scientific apparatus is very good at doing basic research but not so good at capitalizing on potential products. what we need is a sane balance between access to intellectual property and ownership rights. this balance should ultimately benefit us, the citizens (not corporations or governments)

  6. Re:living systems and their components by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It moves, consumes, grows, reacts to stimuli, and reproduces.

    Viruses fail several of these criterea.

    Viruses don't reproduce. The mechanism for virus duplication involves the cell replicating the virus. Also viruses do not grow, they remain the same size as they were created for their entire life cycle. Viruses do not consume anything either - they have no metabolic cycle. No ingestion of food or excretion of waste.