Slashdot Mirror
Students and Bodies Tracked Via RFID Tags
AT writes "The Brittan School District in Sutter County, California, is requiring students to carry RFID-tagged identity badges on them at all times. Readers are currently installed at the doors to all classrooms. Readers were removed from bathrooms when parents protested. The school district is meeting next week to consider parents objections to the system." Relatedly (but not), Leilah writes "The University of California is considering using RFID tags or bar codes to help track their collection of bodies and parts. They are attempting to reopen their body donation program which has been on hold since spring 2004 due to disappearing parts - they've previously had legal trouble over improper disposal as well."
Readers were removed from bathrooms when parents protested
They must have forgotten about those RFIDed toilet paper. Someone I know received a $94 invoice for "Excessive use of toilet paper" from her son's school.
Seriously though, tracking body parts is fine since they're donated "inventory", but tracking a human is a different matter entirely.
And I'm not going to make a joke about the ease of transition from that school to the university.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
So, are you saying you should be allowed to cut off your catalytic converters and drive around polluting?
If the parents are upset over this they should just microwave their child's identity card everytime they get one. The child can continue wearing the card but it won't do anything.
Parents are no longer on the side of teachers and the administration. It is a battle with the parents believing that their child can do no wrong and everyone is out to get that child.
That is because school administrators and teachers are losing their fucking minds.
Today you have kids getting suspended for having nail clippers. A kindergarten kid was punished for wearing a halloween costume that consisted of a fireman with a plastic axe. 3 kids were punished for possessing pornography because they had a drawing of a stick figure with breasts and a penis.
When I was a kid, if I was in the wrong my mother woudl have my ass in a blender. If I wasn't wrong, my mother would raise hell at the school.
If the school admins weren't such asshats, the parents wouldn't need to be so adversarial.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
OK, I'll tell you what. I'll pull my 98 Explorer with 90,000 miles on it up to the nearest emissions testing station, in any condition you choose (hot, cold, whatever). You pull up in your non-catalytic equipped, reasonably similarly engined vehicle. We'll put $500 apiece down, least emissions takes all. Are you willing to take that bet? 'Cause I'm willing to take your money.
And the worms ate into his brain.
My girl has a university class that has over 400 students. To sign in to class everyone had to buy a 18 dollar little remote sign in thingy. Like a remote control. Yes after a little while some students would have their friends "beam" them in for attendance. In one class a bunch of students got caught cause one guy had like 10 remotes for all of his friends that ditched. Although I don't know how he got caught cause you can basically beam in from the back of the auditorium. Haha
www.samuraidreams.com - My Blog
www.samuraifiles.com - Get Some Videos Here
How is using an RFID system which is more accurate, efficient, and convenient any different from tracking students on paper? [...] I fail to see the difference here, let alone how it's somehow an invasion of privacy.
Remember that public school is about a whole lot more than education... it's also about teaching kids what they should expect from society. I doubt anyone has a problem with students being accountable. We parents all want our kids to stay in school, to learn, to not cut class. But what we're talking about is not a system that improves a student's sense of accountability. Instead, this system would cripple it.
Accountability, responsibility, ethics, morals... among other things, these qualities are descriptions of what we do when we're pretty sure we won't get caught. A paper attendance system is easily cheated if the teachers don't pay attention. An RFID system offers different ways to cheat, but of course the goal would be to make it very hard indeed to cheat. An RFID system that's many times more effective than paper is achievable, especially if the tags are mandatory or implanted.
What happens if we put kids in an environment where they have no opportunity to learn about the risks and rewards attendant on skipping and cheating? What happens to kids who grow up in a situation where they know they'll get caught if they don't follow the rules? What happens when these kids are let loose into the world after graduation, untracked for the first time, having had no opportunity to learn the sort of risk management we take for granted?
I doubt it'd be good. They won't have a good understanding of what they can get away with and what they can't, because they'll never have had the chance to make mistakes. When they discover they are free of behavioral enforcement, they will experiment with behaviors previously repressed. By the time they do start making mistakes, which they inevitably will, they'll no longer be juveniles under the law.
Society's only alternative, when faced with these reckless miscreants, would be to continue to track them. The only way to track this group in particular, of course, is to build infrastructure capable of tracking everyone generally.
That's not a society in which I care to participate.
If my kid comes home with a trackable badge, it's going to be a great teachable moment in Resistance to Oppressive Authority, Civil Disobedience, Hardware Hacking, and Abuse of Microwave Ovens.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
45 kids in a High School class? Seriously? My god Americans are right to slag off their state education system. When I went to school here in Scotland the legal maximum was about 31 for theory classes (English, Maths, Geography, Modern Languages, etc.) and 22-ish for practical (Sciences, Art, PE, Tech, etc). And I believe that has been lowered since.
Personally, this will bite the districts in the ass when some 14 year old girl skips class with a 18 year old boy. [and ends up knocked-up to boot!] To date the schools have always had the fallback that "we can't watch them all" ... If the new policies are properly enforced, the school now be just as negligent in letting a 14 year old leave campus at ANY time as your baby sitter would be letting your 6 year old out in the street. My local district has had problems in the past of kids parents dropping them at the front door...then they just walk out the back and skip school. If I can prove my 14 year-old daughter walked thru the first RFID scanner at the door, it was the schools responsibility to "protect" her..and the administrators should be personally, criminally liable for "damage" done to my minor child "property"...if that's how their treating kids now. They can't blame "accidents" if they implemented the means to track kids everywhere in the school!
I can't wait till my kids are in school so I can nail some poor adminmistrator!!!
Gee, now the drug companies know where they can get some new experimental test subjects...
'Take the blue pill, Johnny, or you're suspended!'
This unauthorized experiment was performed on children without their consent and without the consent of the parents.
IANAL - but, you can't go experimenting on children, doubly so when the school workers seem to have a conflict of interest - between profit - and the rights and well being of the students.
They should fire the principle and fire the 'Technology Worker' who was using the school district for live test subjects.
...the luddites.
Or at least so it seems.
So let me get this straight: even though the school is implicitly and explicitly responsible for minor children during the day, they have no right to keep track of them with technology?
Are cameras ok?
Is physically looking at someone ok?
Would full-time bathroom and hall monitors be ok?
Or is this just not ok because it makes it *easy* on a large scale? Also, your argument implies that the school administration doesn't have a right to know where they are. But they do. Secondly, everyone seems to be talking about the bathrooms (which, for drug reasons is probably a good place to track [as I hear all the pro-drug slashdotters cringe]), but that's one of the places they REMOVED scanners, so it's moot.
Further, you're pretty "freaked out" about something that no longer exists. There is no "PATRIOT Act" law. The "PATRIOT Act" was a bill that MODIFIED EXISTING STATUTES across the entire body of code. It's not some new monolithic set of laws. It expanded definitions in some areas - mostly for modern times to account for technology - and it expanded rules and regulations in other areas. It, like all bills that become law, wasn't perfect. But it's hardly the abomination you think it is. (And it seems like we need some more Schoolhouse Rock specials about what happens to a "bill" when it becomes "law".)
The code changes enacted by PATRIOT are just a symbol for you; something to hate for people who irrationally hate anything done by anyone described as "conservative" or "Republican" (ESPECIALLY the nasty "neocons").
So in sum, the school district does have a right to keep track of the students at all times, and it would probably be ok if they did it manually, but all of a sudden it's not ok if they do it with RFID. (Ooooh...scary TRACKING BEACON!) Then, you use it as a soapbox to talk about unrelated federal legislation (???).
And, to top it all off, you opened with saying you had no problems with tracking the kids...sheesh. (AND it gets modded to +5, mind-bending contradictions and irrelevance and all, naturally, since this is slashdot.) Can your own brain keep up with your doubletalk?
No, they can't. But they can make expulsion the penalty for giving away/trading your badge. Then you'll have to go to a different school, presumably one without tracking devices. Mind you, the buses won't get you if you're outside the school's district, so you'll have to get a ride or drive yourself there.
If you can't get to a different school, you and your parents will be called to appear in court and explain why. Unless the reason is provably medical or financial, you will then be ordered to attend school. This order does not mean you will be re-admitted to your own school again, it means you have to find a way to get to some school that will accept you from outside its own district. In addition, the state will fine you (and your parents) and assign you (and your parents) community service.
If you fail/refuse to do this, you will face further fines, more community service hours AND you will be forced (as in police coming to your house and physically carrying you if neccessary) to go to a special truancy school filled with recovering druggies, violent kids undergoing therapy, and anyone who doesn't (or can't) conform to "the system" at their own expense.
Peaceful protest is always an option for a student. Unfortunately, the consequences are unpleasant not just for the student but for his entire family. Your best bet is to attact a lot of media attention while going through the process outlined above. Public outcry usually gets some kind of action taken.
You might be able to fight the tracking system if you can pass off your refusal to use it as a "free speech" right, but don't bet on it. Read up on "Tinker v. Des Moines (393 US 503)" if you're interested in this.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
"Why not? There's hardly an expectation of privacy, and hard-enforced speed limits would force the populace and the government to come to a real agreement on speeding."
.mp3s . this is wrong.
Good question:]
1) because it will be a taxation issue, not a safty issue. Every installation of traffic light camers has led to a reduction of yello light time. specifically so they could issue more tickets.
It would be very profitable for the city to make the highway speed limits 45 MPH. "for safety"
2) You are now in a position where you must continually prove your inmnocents. this is bad.
3) The courts have always assumed the technology is right, and people are wrong.
"
Twice is a bit much. How about once? (looks out window, sees annual inspection stickers on EVERY car.)"
You give a certificate to say the your car meets emmision standards, and that is all.
I think A better example would have been:
"What about being inspected to be sure your stereo is not capable of playing over a certian decible limit?"
"Here, we have an expectation of privacy. OTOH, if the cable guy wants to come over and check his wiring, he's more than welcome to. He could even ask the cops to do so, checking the wiring on the OUTSIDE of my house."
so you perfectly fine with somebody else allowing the police to search your property?
besides, what have you got to hide consumer? if your are innocent you wouldn't have a problem, would you?
We have seen technology gte abused in this manner.
Scary enough, we here this redrick from the governnment more and more as a perfectly good reason to search.
"Wouldn't work. Better to just install sniffers on the ISPs that checks for that kind of traffic. An immediate "explain this activity or we shut you off" message would keep everyone straight. Or they'd just go to a different service."
which is his point. all service would be forced to do this, so you would have no alternatives.
So now I have to explain to the authorities why I am down'oading
mp3 does not equal copyright infringment. I have mp3s of my children, does this mean when ever I share them I have to explain myself?
here is a concept:
Get some evidence that my activity is illegal, get a warrent from an open door court, then come talk to me..shocker, I know.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but when I went to school the teacher didn't follow me whenever I left the room. There's a difference between manually taking attendence to determine who is in class on a given day and forcing students to wear a device which tracks every move they make within the confines of the school. There is a difference between knowing that Johnny was in class this morning and knowing, via remote tracking systems, that Johnny is now in the school library.
This is not about ensuring the safety of students. This is about conditioning future citizens to accept the governement's "right" to monitor the actions of said citizens. Hitler and Stalin had youth programs, the "Hitler Youth" and the "Young Pioneers," both of which programs existed to accustomize children to government control and oversight of their actions. Molding the behaviour of a population is easier when one is willing to be patient and grow a generation which has no concept of what civil liberties are, or what the limits on governmental powers should be. These are the sorts of government actions that need to be fought whenever and wherever they raise their ugly little totalitarian heads.
Just my $.02,
Ron
Impeach Barack Obama for violating the Constitutional requirement to be a "natural born" citizen to hold the office of P
OK, I'll tell you what. I'll pull my 98 Explorer with 90,000 miles on it up to the nearest emissions testing station, in any condition you choose (hot, cold, whatever). You pull up in your non-catalytic equipped, reasonably similarly engined vehicle. We'll put $500 apiece down, least emissions takes all. Are you willing to take that bet? 'Cause I'm willing to take your money.
I say this often.
I had a 76 Toyota corolla non-cat but with a smog pump.
I had a 79 toyota corolla with a cat but no smog pump.
The non-cat always tested with lower emissions than cat. Why? Because catalytic converters burn out over time. But a smog pump which recycles exhaust gasses back into the engine will work consistently well over a longer period of time than a catalytic converter. Perhaps when the 79 was new and the catalytic converter wasn't carbon fouled it might have been equal or better. But after 100,000+ miles they become pretty useless.
-------------
For laughs I have run my 1966 ford f-250 with the 352 engine against newer 1990s ford f-250s with the 351 engine. I won't say the 1966 pre-cat did better than cat. But they were about equal. I welcome you to compare your Explorer with early 70s fords with the same engine. You may be suprised.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
The solution to this is simple. The student just has to put their ID in a microwave oven for five seconds or so on medium power, and the RFID tag will be destroyed, leaving no external evidence of damage.
Problem solved!
The University of New Hampshire provides free access to a full-time attorney for any of its students if they need help with legal issues. She will even defend you if you get arrested. I loved this idea the second I heard it, and think we should have a "public defendant" at our high schools, but only for the reason that we have a police officer there. It's only fair to the student to have somebody advocating their rights when they're going up against powerful authority. Also, if we are trying to treat students as American adults, why shouldn't they have this right which they are entitiled to in a criminal court?
Yes, but if you put an RFID reader in every door in a building you can get a pretty good idea of where the person went and what he did. It's not as invasive as video monitoring (you can't see exactly what the person in the room, just when he entered it), but in a way it's worse because there's no way to hide from it, assuming you're forced to wear the badges and every door has a reader. Sure, if you put a card reader at the front of the school you'd be able to see when kids went in and out, but it wouldn't be very invasive because they could avoid that door if they wanted to (assuming there are other entrances and exits). The way they're talking about it (readers at the doors to every classroom and even the bathrooms, for chrissakes!), you'd be able to place a kid in a specific room or hallway at any given time between the hours of 8 and 3. That sounds pretty damn invasive to me. Tracking what class your kids should be in is one thing. Tracking where they are down to the minute is another.
On the plus side, you'd probably get less kids lingering in the hallway when the bell rings. Now the teachers can pinpoint down to the millisecond how late they are to class. Kids, we're taking one point off your grade for every second between the bell and when you come in the door.
"What do you teach children when you have to tag them and constantly monitor all their activities?
That you don't trust them."
Thank you! I was hoping someone would say that.
Indeed, put yourself into a kid's shoes... well, actually, the grandparent poster didn't seem to have any concern for the feeling of violation a kid may feel at this. The ends, for him, seem to so justify the means, that anything ill about those means seems not to exist.
The general disregard for the rights, ideas, and opinions of kids is what pissed me off most about being one. No matter how smart you are, no one wants to listen to what you have to say until you're eighteen, or more likely twenty-one. If you're a kid with a talent, you're the monkey in somebody's sideshow, fodder for talkshows, political photo-ops, or slow news day "human interest" pieces.
Setting that diatribe aside, though, and going a bit more in depth on one of the parent poster's points:
"They never learn to be trusted, thus either will rebell even more than the kids of today or become complacent slaves to society"
They will not become slaves to a society that isn't constantly watching them. What lesson should be taken from being tagged and monitored than that one should behave while being watched? If one is never not watched, can one learn that one should follow the rules then too? When would that lesson be learned?
Society works through the often tacit agreement of the people in it to follow certain guidelines at all times, with the knowledge that, for most of that time, they won't be near anyone who can enforce those guidelines. Most of the time you can probably get away with crossing a double yellow line. Most of the time you can get away with stealing someone else's stapler. Most of the time you can sneak into someone else's yard and use the pool. We don't need to be constantly under surveilance, though, because most of us do agree to this social contract.
The term "social contract" brings up another of the parent poster's points(and one that has been brought up before): trust. Drafting a contract in business requires good faith on both sides. Good faith... trust. The social contract requires no less. The tagging of these students shows a lack of that faith.
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
When I was in high school, there were cameras at all of the entrances of the school. If you tried to sneak out, they would catch you. Is this, then, also an invasion of privacy?
There was also a receptionist desk at the door. If a student tried to walk out without permission, she would stop them or call someone else to stop them. Is that also an invasion of privacy?
Just because it's now in a smaller electronic form doesn't make it any worse as far as "violating rights." It does however, make it more effective.