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Philadelphia Considering Municipal Wi-Fi

sebFlyte writes "The row over Muni Wi-Fi continues as cities and other municipal authorities consider building massive Wi-Fi networks to give lots of people low-cost wireless net access. CNET is running an article written by the CIO for the city of Philadelphia, explaining why she thinks it's time to break the telcos de-facto monopoly and for public agencies to start offering public services." We have previous covered Taipei's efforts along these lines to create a for-pay service

13 of 223 comments (clear)

  1. What To Look Forward To? by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If Philadelphia suceeds you can count on the following:

    People winging about how poor the service is.

    Talkshow hosts berating the government for more give-aways of taxpayer dollars (sponsored by some telco)

    Saturation and further complaints (my taxdollars pay for, won't stand for it, etc)

    Ultimately it'll actually be pretty good service.

    Why is this a good idea anyway? Look at the stranglehold Cable TV has on communities. (oh, sure you can go satellite, but it's still not price competitive because they're pricing to compete with near monopolies) If municipalities insisted cable could be laid under the condition a cable company will sell, at a reasonable price, bandwidth on their cable to competitors, would we be paying such huge prices?

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:What To Look Forward To? by Enry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is your definition of price competitive? Your value of some service may lead you to believe it is overpriced, but someone who values said service differently may feel it is a fair price. These companies are competing, and they sometimes do it on price.

      My town has a contract with Comcast as the sole provider of cable TV. If I go about 100 yards down the road, I'm in the next town which has both Comcast and RCN as a choice. The price for Comcast the next town over about aboutg 2/3 the price of what I'm paying, meaning I'm paying 50% more because there's no competition.

      Is that a fair price?

    2. Re:What To Look Forward To? by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm a fairly liberal person, and even I agree with this post. As a socially conscious liberal, I believe the government's primary role is to provide for the public welfare by providing for security through police and military, and by providing a safety net by which there is a standard of living we will not allow our citizens to fall below. This includes things like welfare and Social Security.

      However, having said that, there are limits. The minimum standard of living includes such things as making sure families can buy food and afford reasonable housing, and making sure the elderly won't have to live on cat food after they retire. However, this minimum standard of living should not include luxury items like wireless Internet access. Internet access for the poor is already available through computers at public libraries, there is no reason we should be providing everyone with a WiFi connection. What's next, universal cable TV? Everyone gets a free laptop?

    3. Re:What To Look Forward To? by DrZombie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Rotten businesses go out of business, but rotten government programs just eat more tax money."

      If that were true, your post would hold more water, but since there are plenty of poorly run business out there who are still doing well because of government money going to them instead of to necessary services, your gripes fall apart.

      Sure, Wi-Fi service isn't something necessary, but it's a city project, which is paid for by taxpayers of that city, who have far more control of policy than if it were a federally funded program. If the people don't want it, it won't happen. I personally think it's a good idea. There are plenty of "necessaries" that the government doesn't supply. Power for instance. Face it, people need power to live. You can't just "go without it" if you don't think the pricing is fair. It's not a morning coffee. So instead of dumping money into supporting poor businesses, why not set up a wireless network to allow anyone to use at a substantially reduced fee. It will create jobs in the process to replace those that are lost by the telco, and the city should see a revenue boost from it. Eventually they could put in their own VoIP network and start to turn the city into a business itself, supplementing tax income with service fees at a rate less than the telcos for these services.

    4. Re:What To Look Forward To? by jericho4.0 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No one is demanding free wifi as a right. This is an investment by the city, just like roads and education are. It is only being considered for the (possible) increase the local economy.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    5. Re:What To Look Forward To? by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can you say False Dichotomy, Straw Man?

      Your logic is flawed because it ignores the reasoning given by the CIO in the article. You automatically equate WiFi with a luxury item when the CIO from Philly argued that it was a vital part of their infrastructure needed for development and not available from the private sector currently. Your argument does not even address the points made by the CIO.

      Using the logic you've outlined, we should use private police forces and militaries to ensure laws are enforced. After all, if government provides prosecution and apprehension services, what's to keep people from abusing that?

      If people get their garbage taken out by the city at a subsidized rate, what's to keep people from producing more garbage?

      Not everything works in the Free Market, Infrastructure must be publicly funded. Why do you want to leave Philly citizens' future economic opportunities up to chance? Perhaps they don't and that's why they are using their duly elected government to be self-reliant. If you claim that this is not self-reliance, then your definition of self-reliance is equally applicable to a customer trying to negotiate a better price from a corporation. With your view, such a customer is only self-reliant when he is able to meet any demand levied by the corp, rather than being able to find a better way.

      As far as ROI on tax dollars go, I can guarantee you (and the CIO noted this in the FA) that this will have an ROI higher than the crap incentives that have become a slush fund for telcos. Besides, if an ILEC does manage to provide the service with the same ROI as the city, why wouldn't the city just contract them to do the work. I really don't understand where these neo-Liberal ideologies turned into special rights for corporations and limited rights for democratic institutions. Without our democratic institutions, these corporations wouldn't have a pot to piss in.

      --
      Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
  2. Potholes by bsd4me · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would prefer them to fix all of the potholes first...

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    (S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))

  3. How about they hold back on the free service? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am OK with municipal utilities, I think it is inappropriate to make it free. If there is a need among the low-income, offer discounts or make it free for them on a need basis. Having your users pay by default would more likely pay for the setup.

    I am no fan of the DSL / cable duopoly, but not giving them or other commercial interests a chance would be a disservice to tax payers due to the potential for waste and stifles competition from viable alternatives.

    1. Re:How about they hold back on the free service? by brian.glanz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like the difference between municipal drinking water fountains and having municipal water in your office or home, cities do not need to offer access of equivalent quality and delivery method free to all users, everywhere. Could there be a less desirable, but workable version of the utility freely available on city streets (like the fountains), with a sweeter and for-pay version of the utility available within businesses and homes? The sweeter version can compete with private entities, while the basic service of lower quality access can be provided for all who cannot afford or are not positioned to use better.

      Access to information is as important to life as water -- my honest opinion, a corollary of sorts to "Give me liberty or give me death."

      BG

  4. Ramifications by popo · · Score: 5, Insightful


    The ramifications of free wi-fi are greater than just web access... The upshot is of course, free telephone service as well.

    This IMHO is where the real problems are going to begin. The telco's aren't just going to lose their internet business over this, they'd lose their businesses.

    Not that we'd be sorry to see them go, but it should be acknowleged that we're talking about more than web browsing here.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  5. Another type of mesh plan by owlclownish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The city itself shouldn't be talking about forming a monopoly, supporting a monopoly or operating a utility. Instead the city should be doing what it needs to do to facilitate the creation of city-wide mesh networks by private providers.

    There are several impediments to the creation of city-wide wireless mesh networks. The first, and perhaps most important, is right of way. The second is cost.

    A good model would include the city throwing out an RFP asking for proposals to create a city-wide mesh network that accomplishes the following:

    • Covers at least X% of the city, where X is a large enough percentage to ensure that poor areas of the city are at least partially covered in mesh.
    • Provides at least X mbps throughput to all users
    • Allows independent providers to use the network to provide their own brand of wireless mesh services, for appropriate fees
    In exchange, providers get:
    • The right to borrow money at favorable rates through the use of the city's credit. The city floats bonds, and then loans the money to the chosen provider(s) at the same interest rate as the bonds themselves
    • Streamlined approval of right of way throughout the city, probably using the city's lamposts
    • A temporary monopoly on some types of premium services on the network (i.e. the provider is forced to allow the rebranding of the regular tier of service, but a higher tier of service [twice as fast?] is the sole province of the provider for X years).
    New York City has an interesting plan out there for better cell phone coverage under a similar model: offering right of way on the city's lamposts in exchange for certain guarantees. See New York Times coverage on the subject.
  6. Two problems: by Wordsmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Aside from the philosophical discussion on whether this SHOULD be done, I see two implimentation problems:

    1) This is going to cause major interference with pre-existing wi-fi networks. I don't use of want my private network degraded by the ever-present WIFI service set up with repeaters throughout the city.

    2) It's going to be VERY difficult to get people to be smart about use, and avoid giving out key personal information over the airwaves. Identity theieves already collects lots of information in Starbucks and ball fields. Can you imagine how bad the problem would be with access city-wide?

  7. Re:"low cost wireless net access"? by kwiqsilver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The TVA provided "low cost" electricity in that it didn't charge much per kilowatt-hour. Of course if you include the massive tax funded expenses to build the whole thing, it actually was quite expensive, which is why no private company wanted to touch it.