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EFF Joins Fight Against Apple Lawsuit

sutterpants writes "The BBC is carrying a story on the legal battle between Apple and free press advocates. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has joined in the fight to protect journalists from revealing their sources. Which carries more weight: the right of Apple to protect their trade secrets or the rights of journalists to protect their sources?"

11 of 662 comments (clear)

  1. UTSA and other considerations by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Informative

    Funny how almost no story or commentary about this ever mentions that current, in-force US laws may have been broken in the publication of this information:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A793 7-2005Jan13_2.html

    But while lawsuits against online publications are rare, he said, the Uniform Trade Secrets Act, versions of which have been adopted by about 45 states, including California, prevents third parties from exposing information knowingly obtained from sources bound by confidentiality agreements.

    "Just because you don't have a relationship with the company doesn't necessarily immunize you, if you publish what you reasonably should have known was a trade secret," [Andrew] Beckerman-Rodau[, who runs the intellectual property program at Boston's Suffolk University Law School] said. "The First Amendment has been asserted more and more against intellectual property rights, but it's not faring well. Most courts haven't accepted it."


    Apple doesn't really care about these web sites. They care about finding out who within the company (or contractor, etc.) is continually leaking this extremely accurate information to web sites (such as Think Secret). And no, it's not information that's "known" elsewhere. Some of these sites have got very reliable moles, and Apple wants to know who they are. Hint: yes, these are people who definitely have binding confidentiality agreements with Apple.

    Regardless of whether or not Apple "should" or "shouldn't" be doing this, whether it's good PR or not, etc., if you can't see that it's wrong, legally and ethically, for these people to be leaking this information, then, well, we have nothing further to discuss. Is it journalism and free speech when you violate laws to obtain information? Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

    And remember, whether or not you fundamentally *agree* with the law is irrelevant. It's either illegal, or not. (Yes, yes, sure, there's gray areas, but that's not the point I'm making. And sure, maybe these sites "fighting it" in this way is one mechanism to examine the validity of these laws, and further, the role of an online journalist and his information gathering mechanisms, what can be construed as soliciting known confidential information, what constitutes a violation of these laws in this context, etc.)

    If Apple's goal is to find out who leaked this information - indeed, if it considers that information critical to its business - and there is a legal mechanism for perhaps recovering that information, is it not within its rights to file suit seeking that information, especially when criminal and/or civil laws pertinent to that very information may have been violated? You might THINK they should hire a private detective. You might THINK any laws prohibiting these sites from revealing such information are incorrect, immoral, or unjust. But those are subjects not relevant to the case at hand, unless, of course, you believe the EFF challenge is a fundamental challenge of these laws.

    I'm not talking philosophy here, or whether or not government officials can/should leak to the press. This is not about the Seymour Hershes of the world and the Pentagon Papers. I'm talking about the legality of this particular case, which involves a corporate entity, not issues of "throwing reporters in jail" to "reveal sources". Note that under some conditions, journalists HAVE, in fact, violated the law, and have, properly, been thrown in jail. The concept of not revealing confidential sources isn't some high and mighty ethical concept; in fact, it's a rather selfish one: at some level, it ensures them more sources in the future. It makes them more effective as a journalist. Whether they've got lofty ideals or what have you is again irrelevant. The point is, we either enforce rule of law as set by society in this country, or we don't. And yes, we can work to change law(s), protest against them, a

    1. Re:UTSA and other considerations by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wow, um, did you like, read my post or anything?

      I'll repeat, just in case:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A793 7-2005Jan13_2.html

      But while lawsuits against online publications are rare, he said, the Uniform Trade Secrets Act, versions of which have been adopted by about 45 states, including California, prevents third parties from exposing information knowingly obtained from sources bound by confidentiality agreements. [i.e., an NDA]

      "Just because you don't have a relationship with the company doesn't necessarily immunize you, if you publish what you reasonably should have known was a trade secret," [Andrew] Beckerman-Rodau[, who runs the intellectual property program at Boston's Suffolk University Law School] said. "The First Amendment has been asserted more and more against intellectual property rights, but it's not faring well. Most courts haven't accepted it."


      Just because you don't agree with the UTSA doesn't make it disappear. It remains to be seen whether the UTSA can be legally asserted by Apple, as they haven't publicly commented on this case beyond saying "Apple's DNA is innovation", etc., but the fact of the matter is that a law may indeed have been broken in the publication of information reasonably known to have been protected by a confidentiality agreement, period.

    2. Re:UTSA and other considerations by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regardless of whether or not Apple "should" or "shouldn't" be doing this, whether it's good PR or not, etc., if you can't see that it's wrong, legally and ethically, for these people to be leaking this information, then, well, we have nothing further to discuss. Is it journalism and free speech when you violate laws to obtain information? Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

      I don't see what this has to do with attempting to force the journalists into releasing their sources.

      The sources are the ones that are breaking the confidentiality agreements and leaking the information to the media. The journalists are then doing their job and reporting the information to the world.

      If Apple wants to stop the leaks then they need to crack down internally and stop the people from breaking the confidentiality agreements. Whether that means paying the people more money, hiring more trustworthy individuals, or doing some sort of INTERNAL investigations, I don't know. What I do know is that they should NOT be attempting to coerce (through legal means) journalists into handing them the culprits on a silver platter.

      Journalists need the protections so that they can be trusted by sources to release information w/o revealing the persons behind that release. If Apple is able to deny this right of protection over something as silly as a new product design how are sources supposed to trust journalists over something important?

    3. Re:UTSA and other considerations by YomikoReadman · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As you pointed out, the UTSA prohibits a third party from releasing information from a source they know to be bound by an NDA. However, the issue that you seem to either ignore or skirt over is whether or not this kid knew that the people giving him information were bound by an NDA. He started running this site when he was what, 13? I didn't even know that the UTSA existed when I was 13, let alone know what an NDA was. Since that point in time, has he openly requested that apple employees break their NDAs? No, he hasn't. He put out an open call for any information from anyone who may or may not have it, and he released it online.

      While the information in question was classified as a trade secret, without him knowing that it was coming from someone under NDA he's not in violation of the UTSA, which is what he's being sued under.

      All that said, the UTSA is valid, but it's not that hard to get around. Simply not asking whether or not the source of information is bound by a NDA is more than enough to protect you from liability under the UTSA.

      Bottom line, Apple is bringing it's weight to bear on someone in order to coerce the names of his sources, and those are protected by 1st amendment rights. I say good on the EFF for stepping up on this one.

      --
      I have no regrets, this is the only path.
      My whole life has been "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS"
    4. Re:UTSA and other considerations by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ammendment I:
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

      Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press are two separate items. A fact that is quite frequently forgotten. I, for one, see six separate points in the above text.

      The Press has its own freedom, outside the concept of "Freedom of Speech."

    5. Re:UTSA and other considerations by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He started running this site when he was what, 13? I didn't even know that the UTSA existed when I was 13, let alone know what an NDA was. Since that point in time, has he openly requested that apple employees break their NDAs? No, he hasn't. He put out an open call for any information from anyone who may or may not have it, and he released it online.

      First of all, I don't buy the ignorance excuse. In Nick's case, he's been doing this a LONG time, so he does know what's going in, and the issues at hand have happened since he was over 18 years of age.

      While the information in question was classified as a trade secret, without him knowing that it was coming from someone under NDA he's not in violation of the UTSA, which is what he's being sued under.

      It's if he *reasonably* should have known it was coming from someone bound by an NDA. This isn't one of those "if you ask if someone's a cop they have to tell you" myths (they don't), and likewise, you just can't claim ignorance when you're getting information about things like a sub-$500 Mac, probably one of Apple's most closely guarded secrets ever (until Think Secret published it); one which most Apple employees themselves didn't even know about until Macworld. He has sources within Apple or within Apple contractors, period, and he knows damned well they're bound by NDAs. Of course, I can't categorically prove that, and the legal process will attempt to discover this, and his disposition, etc., and his legal team will no doubt paint him as hapless, innocent "blogger", when in reality, he knows damned well what he's doing.

      All that said, the UTSA is valid, but it's not that hard to get around. Simply not asking whether or not the source of information is bound by a NDA is more than enough to protect you from liability under the UTSA.

      Untrue. See above.

      Bottom line, Apple is bringing it's weight to bear on someone in order to coerce the names of his sources, and those are protected by 1st amendment rights. I say good on the EFF for stepping up on this one.

      Ok, if it's because you think the UTSA is fundamentally "wrong", I'll agree with you. They can definitely protest. However, as I thought was clear in my initial post,

      - 3rd parties, including possibly "journalists", might be prohibited from revealing information that was obtained from someone who can reasonably be assumed to have broken a confidentiality agreement (and, further, if anyone with a web site can claim to be a "journalist", then it would seem that a law like the UTSA would be rendered useless - try to at least understand that, whether you agree with the law or not)

      - The first amendment has already been *unsuccessful* in various similar cases of trade secret leaks, even by 3rd parties, as noted in the Washington Post article

      So while you can make the argument you're making, it might not represent the reality of the situation.

    6. Re:UTSA and other considerations by singularity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Journalists do not give up their source so that they might protect the source's right to anonymity.

      The only problem is that someone breaking a trade secret and giving it to a journalists never has a right to anonymity in this case.

      It is similar to you telling your lawyer or psychiatrist that you intend to go hurt someone. Not only do you lose your right to confidentiality (these two professions are normally protected by attorney-client privilege and doctor-patient privilege), but in that case both of those people are even REQUIRED to inform the correct people.

      This is not a case of telling a journalist *ABOUT* an illegal act, this is a case where telling the journalists *IS* the illegal act, and the journalist was party to this illegal act.

      The sources are the ones that are breaking the confidentiality agreements and leaking the information to the media. The journalists are then doing their job and reporting the information to the world.

      One problem - the journalist, at the same time, is knowingly accepting information they know to be protected by an NDA, and that makes the actual act illegal.

      There is a big difference, in my head, between telling a journalist anonymously about a crime, and telling a journalist something illegal to be told.

      --
      - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    7. Re:UTSA and other considerations by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lets put it this way. Is it OK for the press to publish your bank account numbers and pass phrase that a hacker gave them? Is it OK for them to publish the codes to launch nuclear missiles given to them by a foreign spy? Is it OK for them to publish slanderous and completely untrue information in order to inflate their own stock price? The answer to all of these questions is "no." The reason is because they break laws. There are several laws that restrict free speech and they apply to both members of the press (a legally undefined term) and everyone else. The reason these laws exist is because the supreme court and congress agree that other clauses of the constitution take precedence over the freedom of the press clause in a few specific instances. This does not in any way stop them from publishing this information, it just means that they will be punished by the law after doing so. Get it?

      Being a reporter does not make it legally OK for you to break laws, even ones relating to publishing information and even if that information is true. You may not agree with those laws, but even someone as anti-law and anti-big-government as myself is glad that their are a few of them. Just as a reporter can be put in jail for printing a giant sign that says "WARNING FIRE, EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY!" and putting it on the screen in a movie theater, they can be arrested for knowingly publishing illegally obtained trade secrets. The accuracy of the information, has nothing to do with it.

  2. Considering it's been 30 years... by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...and we still don't know who Deep Throat was, I have to admit surprise that modern corporations can muscle the media better than the federal government, particularly the Nixon administration.

    1. Re:Considering it's been 30 years... by marsu_k · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh sure we do, it was Linda Lovelace.

  3. A Free Press by mariox19 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have no definitive answer as to what the Bill of Rights meant by the term "press," but I'm happy to take an educated guess.

    At the time of the United States's founding, the journalistic landscape wasn't what we've had for most of the 19th and all of the 20th century: namely, media dominated by major newspapers. There were many, many individual owners of printing presses.

    These printers (and Benjamin Franklin was one) handled the various printing needs of their towns. They also usually printed newsletters relating local events, political issues, weather forecasts, farming tips, and so forth. In addition to these newsletters, they printed political pamphlets, including Common Sense and the Federalist Papers.

    The situation then was much closer to the blogs, e-mail newsletters, and Web forums we have today.

    I think, from a constitutional standpoint, you could definitely argue that blogs -- and other Internet goodness -- are in no way second-class journalistic entitites, but instead have the same rights afforded to the New York Times, et. al. They are the modern versions of the Colonial and Revolutionary press.

    --

    quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.