Slashdot Mirror
When Should You Quit Your Job?
Moe Taxes asks: "I want to hear from Slashdot readers who have quit jobs or turned down offered jobs because it was not what they wanted to do. Why did you do it? Was it ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust? And how did it turn out? Did you get to do what you wanted to do, are you still looking, or did you come back begging for another chance? I have always written software for windows, but never with Microsoft tools. I don't feel like I have enough control over the product when I use Microsoft programming environments. My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?"
OCO is Loco
Right now I am the lone PHP programmer where I work, and I have total control over what operating systems and applications I want ot use on my workstation and servers. However, I recently was offered a job about 3 hours away, where I would have to code in C#, and use Visual Studio, but the pay is 2x what I make now, so I'm going to try at least.
:)
I think its difficult enough for programmers in the US to even get jobs right now, so for me to have the option of doubling my pay in exchange for swallowing my pride, it seems like a smart move. Plus I can always go home and cleanse myself with Linux after work
the spell checking nazis will have fun with that
That said, I actually quit one job because the boss was a roller coaster alchoholic, smooth and polite one day, mean and vindictive and nasty the next. I left for mental health reasons, not wanting to become a news item in the local news paper. It is never a good thing when you start contemplating evil things to do to your boss.
In this case, it was a wise move on my part
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
(posted it somewhere else but the formatting was awful)
Two and a half years ago I was switching jobs and an Ask Slashdot on the topic gave me a few hints on how to do it well and it's been great since then. Now I have a new offer and am in the middle of a very hard decision:
I'm a programmer. I think I'll be a programmer all my life. When I do tasks in the real world I envision solutions almost as code. I was born to write code, and have done so for over 10 years now. But being a university drop-out my future has always worried me: I know people don't hire older programmers, and being 27 this is something that's hainting me.
So my current employer made me an offer to manage a new office in a town where it would be fairly easy for me to continue my university studies where I left them; but, as fate has it, I was given another offer to stay in the city I'm in with a higher pay (more than double of what I make now, almost three times) and a really high rank (Executive Manager of a really big company). When we got to the point of my lack of university degree, they downplayed it and said they could help me continue my studies, but as I see it is not a priority. Now, in the middle of this dilemma is the whole relocation problem.
My question would be this: How would you play it? I'd love to make a lot of money, but if I take the Executive Manager position I'll most probably never write code again, and may still not have a diploma; but if I take the lower, manager position with my current employer I'll be really comfortable in an environment that I like, but may never have a chance to climb up that higher in the positions ladder.
I tend to think that once I've gotten to the higher positions the university diploma will not matter much, but I'm not certain on how true this really is.
Life is very short ...and reputations too long to erase by career ethical issues.
I live in a top 50 US market and was offered a job writing PR for a major election systems company. The pay offered was attractive and they were totally thrilled with my writing (I was referred by their PR firm who had come into contact with me at another company). I'm a half-breed tech/business type and have been fortunate enough to be able to take a technical topic and explain it for normal people to understand.
This company gave me a pile of product manuals, corporate documentation, etc. to read through as I wanted to assess what I'd be jumping into. I don't like promising anyone to solve their problems unless I really can have a realistic chance of doing so. Upon reading through the materials, I was horrified. They lacked any process maturity and relied upon a crew of hostile, overworked programmer fossils that were combative to any development. Project management was a myth. Sales would routinely ignore the obsolete programming staff and make outlandish commitments ("touch screen with custom layouts? No problem!") just to book the sale. They'd learned long ago to just toss the orders over the wall instead of dealing with the antisocial technical crew. Both groups were at war with each other.
And management wanted me to put frosting on it all as they clearly viewed their problems as public relations. "We just aren't communicating our product vision effectively" they said.
I turned it down. Every time I get on a commercial aircraft, I pray they don't make planes the way they make election systems. Best of all, I'm not associated with that company. Several of the programmers have been trying to get hired at companies I know and my horror stories have kept some of my peers from bringing on the dead weight. People have no idea how small a big city can be when it comes to hiring and networking.
Hopefully this can get modded up as a bit of a warning.
I had a great job at the end of 2003, but ended up getting fired because I had an attitude that signaled I wanted a better company to work for. I didn't like the directions they were taking, etc. I had publicly talked about quitting and finding a better job, and after a heated argument with an incompetent boss, I was terminated.
I initially felt relief and freedom. It was great to be able to take the time to find that perfect company that did things the way I wanted them to be done! Until 2 weeks of unemployment turned to 2 months. Then 3. Then 4. Then a short contract out of desperation for little money. Next thing you know, I'm behind on the house and the car. Child support gets missed. A year later I ended up filing for bankruptcy in order to attempt to keep a roof over my head, and even then I'm barely able to keep up with the increased payments that come with reaffirming my loans.
Now, almost a year and a half later, I have a great job with a company less than 10 minutes from my house. They don't do things any better than the last company, but I've had to learn to be more political in the last several months.
The point is this : you won't know if it was a stupid move for 6 months. If you find some kick ass company to work for, then it was a smart move. If you're borrowing money from family and friends to pay for a bankruptcy attorney, then you were a fool.
And, not to start a flame war, what's so bad about C#? I will make the assumption that you are either a VB or Windows C++ programmer, which means that C# is just another tool in your toolkit, another skill on your resume. I still prefer C++ to C# because I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of the full power of C++, but I use C# to pay the bills. And if you really love programming, you should love learning new languages, like I do.
Post back in 6 months and then we'll know for sure if you were a fool.
"If everything inside you is screaming "leave this job," then you should probably do it"
I didn't follow my gut's advice for over a year and was miserable. I finally told my boss I was leaving and if he was nice about it I would remain available for a period of time after my departure. If he was a dick about it or if I was classified as non-rehirable I was gone for good. I've never been happier or felt more liberated than my last week there when people tried adding new tasks to my stack and failed.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
I was a victin of the following economic crash but not of the airframes that would have slammed into my floor (the 83rd) just about where my cubicle was.
Was I foolish to quit? You tell me.
I left because they didn't know what a state machine was (which had a SEVERE impact on the system's design,) my immediate boss expected to follow her around and commit everything to memory because she never wrote anything down, and I was expected to do miracles, like being prescient.
Was I foolish to quit? No way. I couldn't take working there one more day.
It may have cost me (I've recouped it all since,) but it was worth it.
I'm still here. 2 of my co-workers weren't so lucky.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I just turned one down last week... My rule is if they can't beat me in a sales call, I won't even consider it.
Please explain what this means. Apparently it is very important, as it has been moderated to +5 Insightful. I don't get it.
I had a nightmare manager who drove me into the ground so hard with that sort of Jekyl and Hyde crap that I ended up in a psychologist's office. It was everything from the trivial to the insane--grinding me for $15 on a $8500 expense report one minute then, literally the next minute, expensing my _personal_ $500 cellphone, and thrashing into my office on my 15th hour on one day to find me winding down doing something unproductive and screaming that I should be "doing my job" (hello, I just finished two-days' worth of my job TODAY!) or on the most asinine level writing me up for taking a morning off because the previous fire someone else started that I had to put out had me working from 9am Tuesday until 6:30am Wednesday and I wasn't pert and perky at my desk by 9am again. AAAAGH!
So, under those circumstances, I had a chat with the Human Resources Director (and the company ombudsman) and basically said, look, I'm ready to quit and have my letter of resignation written--is there anything I should know? She gave a few coded hints, so I backed off and ended up with a severance package and a no-fault dismissal as opposed to storming out the door with bupkes or worse, being fired for some cooked-up theatrical bullshit. Bottom line, I was either going to leave or be asked to leave and couldn't care less about being gone. Better to be gone with a briefcase of cash than with merely the satisfaction of making a scene or "being right." Even if you're going to absolutely explode, it's still better to take a step back and strategize your exit. In my case it meant that what was going on was documented and, more importantly, understood so I wasn't just that back-stabbing jerk who left us high and dry.
Now, leaving because you don't like the programming language--and one that you don't really know? Well, that's just silly. You can't know too many languages, computer or otherwise. Pick up the knowledge first, then find another job, then leave. Storming out is, frankly, pretty childish and I'd start coming up with a better story than that for your next interview. No matter how trivial or horrific the situation, your next employer is primarily interested in how you handled it. Were you a professional adult or a spoiled child? Needless to say, they aren't hiring the latter...
"I finally told my boss I was leaving and if he was nice about it I would remain available for a period of time after my departure."
A pleasant side effect of "going big" is actually changing the situation you're in vs. switching employers.
I was utterly miserable at a particular job. Absolutely destroying-my-soul miserable. A friend of mine heard my stories and was equally horrified, but then made a point of asking me what I had done to change the environment. I muttered the usual, all ineffective.
He pointed out that I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by charging the proverbial windmills with all my might, right to the top. If it was truly as bad as I described it, it certainly couldn't get any worse.
Turns out the Grand Poobahs had been equally frustrated but in a different direction. They too wanted change. They were miserable. It's just that nobody was really stepping forward with what needed to be said and how maybe to fix things. I ended up being the person who broke the ice, then many others finally felt able to talk as well.
One year later and I'm happy, doing the same job and getting better pay in the bargain. Pleasant working atmosphere, everyone feeling more like we're all in the same boat vs. "who's liver is next on the dinner plate?" It's still hard work, but after 20 years I know the difference between tough deadlines vs. death march. I feel good.
But I was fully prepared to be fired for my windmill charge. That was a definite possibility. When the situation is intolerable however, what's left to lose? And you've everything to gain.
If you quit your job, some things in your life will inevitably change, some for the better and some for the worse. If you don't quit, you will know for 100% sure that it won't get any better.
That said, it is of course up to each one to judge when a job is bad enough to quit, and how good or bad the prospects are for something different.
I know a geek who got tired of a well paid job at IBM and became a carpenter. Never regretted it for a minute. Personally, I would not like that at all, but as said, we are all different.
I have a similar story. I won't even post it Anonymously, though my move was probably far more stupid.
I had a fantastic full-time job at a computer warehouse. I started as a temp for $8.50, and was hired when I proved to be a very fast learner. In less than a year, I was making $11 an hour. I was dating at the time, and had a great roommate (a high school buddy), so my bills were cut in half. Trust me, $11 an hour was a king's salary as far as I was concerned. I got to know and like everyone I worked with, even the CEO. We were only about 50 people, and I knew them all by name, their spouse, how many kids, etc. We had hotdog and hamburger grill-outs every friday (paid by the company) during the summer, and grinders and/or pizza for every mandatory meeting. Bagels and donuts were always free every day in the break room. This is just the kind of company it was.
Then, I got stupid. I started staying up all nights on Saturday night hanging out with friends, or cramming for finals. Sunday night I would crash so hard that I'd sleep through my alarm clock Monday morning. This happened three times, once I was even two and a half hours late to work. I was confronted and got real defensive. People didn't forget it.
About a month later, profits came crashing down after the boom from all of our customers replacing their computer systems from Y2K. There were three rounds of layoffs to try to keep the company afloat, 5-10 people each time. I was shocked and angered when I was part of the third group.
In retrospect, had I been my boss, I would've made sure that I was in the first group, not the last. I was undependable, a slackoff (making sure to use every sick day available to me each year, even if I had to fake it), and generally not a very hard worker.
In my pigheaded pride, I was determined to find a better, higher-paying job in the same field with my Associate's Degree in hand. This was about the time that everything was starting to be outsourced to India, too. After two months, my savings ran dry, and unemployment checks could barely cover rent. I moved in with a college friend in another city, who said he could get me a job where he worked, programming cash registers. It never happened.
After nine months of unemployment, I had to move back home. My parents wouldn't take me, so I stayed on my grandparents' couch (literally) while I waited for a call from a local factory. I'd been hired, but they didn't have a place for me yet. It took them a month. By then, my unemployment extension had run out. They gave me a second-shift job running a paint line, hanging plastic parts on racks, for $8.00 an hour. I was making more on unemployment.
You know what? After ten months on my ass, I was so grateful for $8.00 an hour I nearly cried. I came really close to giving up my car, or worse, losing my girlfriend (fiance now, we're getting married next month). I worked harder than I thought I could. It took two weeks before I didn't come home in agony with muscles tied in knots. After two months, I took an internal job posting as die setter, then six months later (after fantastic reviews), took a job as preventative maintenance technician. I can't disclose my current wage, but it's definitely much higher than I've ever made before, anywhere.
Am I happy? Definitely. Learning makes me happy, and my company is gladly sending me to college to get my Journeyman's Certificate. Do I enjoy my job? Sometimes. Frankly, I don't think that matters, because every day I come home, to a house with a garage, both of which I own, to a wonderful woman, whom I will marry.
A job is a job is a job. And career is spelled: "W-O-R-K." Don't let your job be everything, but definitely don't neglect it. People don't become CEO's by complaining about their workload, or trying to find loopholes in the company handbook for extra sick days.
The speed of time is one second per second.
Buf if you have car payments, credit car payments, a wife, then you put that yoke on yourself and its your responsibility to do that ...
You know, people keep saying this, and I think it's completely, completely wrong.
A year ago at this time I was working at a game publisher, making decent money. But I was stuck there 12 or more hours a day, almost every day. I just got married 2 years ago and I could never even see my wife - even on weekends, I was so tired that I'd sleep until around 4 PM on Saturdays, then I'd have basically one evening to relax and it was all I could do to just maintain my life on Sundays (you know, regular stuff like cleaning the house, balancing the checkbook, paying bills, etc.). We had practically no time together whatsoever, and I was killing myself with stress - literally. I was in and out of the doctors' office pretty regularly with chest pains and heart palpitations from the stress.
So I quit. I didn't have anything lined up - I really couldn't, because I didn't have time to look before. I tried to, and I did apply to as many jobs as I could find, but I didn't really have time to go on interviews and I obviously didn't have time to make looking for a job my full time job, which is what you really need to do to find something. So I knew I had to quit - I saved up a bit of money (not a lot, but some), and I gave my notice.
It took me eight months to find a job. The first few months were great - we had enough money to live on, and we finally had time to be together. The last few months were pretty stressful, as the money got really tight.
But in the end I found something, and I'm now making more money than I did, I'm working 10-6 and in a much more professional and relaxed environment (funny how efficiency lowers stress and reduces the work load, isn't it?). I now have both time and money.
But the point I'm trying to make is that there are more important things to life than work. I mean there are different types of work, and some work is more important than other work, and maybe some types of work are more important than almost anything (doctors, firefighters, etc.). But if you're a worker drone sitting in a cube writing code until 2 AM, and you've got a family at home waiting for you, jesus christ, go home. If your boss tells you to stay, tell him to fuck himself (nicely). Get another job; one that isn't so unreasonable, however long it takes. Take a pay cut if you have to - I was prepared to, if it meant more time with my wife.
And if you need to quit before finding another job, then do it. Be smart about it - save a little money first, and plan how you're going to survive for a while - but if you need to do it, do it. It is just not worth being a slave when you've got people you love sitting at home alone waiting for you.
A little tip: some states will give you unemployment even if you quit, if your situation was such that any other "reasonable" person would have done the same. (This is called quitting with "good cause" - the technical requirement for receiving unemployment.) I got unemployment after sending a letter of explanation to my state's unemployment office (a requirement; I didn't do anything special), and that helped my wife and I a lot. I live in New York. Look up your own state's laws if you're contemplating such a move to see if you might be eligible to receive unemployment after quitting.
Despite the fact that I like the folks on my team and my immediate management have treated me OK, I just dread the act of going into work and really don't like the role I was assigned. While it's no sweatshop, we're dreadfully undermanned (due to mergers and consolidation, and general cluelessness on the part of management).
Why am I departing? Well, there are a bunch of reasons and they weigh heavier than the impetus to stay, including the big fat paycheck that I could just go through the motions and keep ringing the bell every 2 weeks.
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