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Source Code Dispute in Boston's Big Dig
JoshuaDFranklin writes "Boston's 'Big Dig' is famously long-running and over budget as noted before on Slashdot. But now Computerworld is reporting that a Software Ownership Battle Adds $10M to Cost of 'Big Dig'. The legal dispute was over whether Massachusetts had the right to share Transdyn source code with Honeywell, causing $2.72 million in damages and $7.2 million in costs of a four-month delay in the project."
They just didn't actually buy the software, just waved some money at somebody who let them use it.
The state argued that Dynac had been modified as part of the project and had thus become a customized piece of software not subject to the legal safeguards for off-the-shelf applications.
Bt of a dodgy arguement though...
I wonder if the open code requirement was in the contract -- it sounds like it wasn't...
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
Transdyn have a SCADA system called Dynac. Now Honeywell have a contract to build the next phase of the control system and Transdyn "refused to turn over the Dynac source code to Honeywell, claiming that the technology was proprietary". Do the Project Managers even know that SCADA software is almost always a trade-secret, like Windows or anything else? Just because Dynac had been modified as part of the project does not mean that it is state property, or Open Source or anything at all, unless the contract says that.
I stole this
The Mass Turnpike Authority are the biggest f'cking crooks.
They shouldn't even exist. It was formed to build the Mass turnpike. The tolls were added to pay the debt of constructing it. It was stipulated by law that it would be toll free once the debts were repaid. It should have been toll free in the 1960s. They keep spending money so it will never be finished.
These are the guys trusted with god knows how many billions?
I particularly like that they paid some outrageous amount (millions and millions, 48?) for a lot for material disposal, never used it, (here's the kicker) gave it back to the previous owner for free! People should be in jail for the shit that's going on.
-William Shatner can be neither created nor destroyed.
I know nothing about this type of software, but hundreds of millions of dollars sounds like an awful lot. I gather that this is not the first attempt to develop such software, that it is a category that has been around for some time. Why is this not a relatively inexpensive matter of buying or licensing some off-the-shelf system and configuring it, rather the way people buy a database system and then set up their own record structures, specialized queries, and so forth? Can anyone explain why this would cost such an enormous amount?
We have a multi-billion pound project on the way at the moment in the UK. This is running into huge problems as well, who knows what the end cost will be, but I blame the approach rather than the consultants. Instead of spending money on huge monolithic systems with attendant ongoing support tie-ins, the government bodies should be defining the data that needs to be stored, the interfaces to them and the interactions between them. If they produced a well defined model they could then place a general specification out there and let individual authorities purchase compliant systems from the market. The degree of competition that this would introduce would improve the quality and reduce the chance of cost overruns.
You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
I think it's a perfect example of why any custom software developed with taxpayer dollars should be required by law to be open source!
You wouldn't get into this mess if states would pass a law like that. Look at the figures, 104M for a transportation manageent system? Most of us know that probably could have been done for close to $20M.
What rock have you been living under?
Once someone wins the contract from the government, they'd pull the exact same shit, because the government knows that if they didn't pay up for whatever "cost overruns" and grant whatever time extensions, NOBODY would finish the job if the current bidder walked off the field, everyone would want to rip it out and start over.
Where I live all road projects are done contractually, and we get crap like this all the time. Near my house there is a 2 mile section of road that has been "under improvements" for about 8 years. It was supposed to be converted from a two lane road to a four lane divided road, and the company doing the work decided to spend a couple of years building 1000 feet of northbound lane, then 1000 feet of southbound lane, alternating back and forth checkerboard style, and that was the temporary road! People had to zigzag back and forth for years while they built the "white squares" of permanent road into the pattern, at which point traffic had to be switched to zigzag back and forth along the permanent road (requiring new temporary patches to be built from segment to segment, as well)
So don't blame bullshit like this on the government. Capitalists are every bit as skilled at extracting every last penny from the taxpayer.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I'm sorry, the last thing Boston needs is more downtown skyscrapers and associated increase in traffic, etc. The paved-over cowpaths that make up its streets simply can't support the traffic burden. The current situation with downtown traffic is already intolerable - I've given up driving to Boston, even if you get in you'll find that the grossly overpriced parking garages always seem to be full. But much worse than that is that in the last several years it has become virtually impossible to get into Boston from the suburbs via subway or train during the day, because all of their parking lots/garages fill up by 8:30 am - or is it 7:30 or maybe 6:30 now? I pity people having to commute into Boston, and on the rare occasions I am forced to go in (e.g. for certain medical tests), I have to take an expensive cab to the subway station because there's no longer any parking available there, like there used to be almost always not even 5 years ago. A trip into Boston and back ends up costing me $40-$50 as a result.
I worked on the BigDig code. What 'yakitori' says is essentially correct. Transdyne had their Dynac product as an off-the-shelf control software. They modified it for Boston's use for $50 Mil. Apparently the governing authority for BigDig neglected to purchase a license for modifying the source code, instead only owning the modifications. When Honeywell was then given the contract to expand the amount of roadway covered by the system, the hand-off was not pretty. Now, Transdyne still has some contractual obligations to BigDig, which should lower the cost to Boston. There are still a few devices on the roadway (cameras, car-detectors, stop-lights) to be added to the system. In point of fact, though, Boston is basically asking for something for nothing. Transdyne would love to get paid some more for the additional work they want to take on. They would hate to have to do the work under some kind of "we've already paid for this, now do it" condition. And Boston is out of money for the BigDig -- the system already cost $15 Billion, and they're trying to squeeze a few hundred million here and there in 'cost recovery'. Not to mention the several hundren million still expected to stop all the leaks. Not a good situation.
I worked on the BigDig software. Of the $15 billion total cost, maybe $250 million total went to software. The rest went to construction costs -- they basically built many sections of tunnels through the middle of a busy city, while traffic continued to flow over them.
This is VERY different from the normal 'cut a trench, lay your road, cover over the tunnel' method, and is WAY more expensive.
Now Boston is out of money for the BigDig, but there is maybe $50 million more needed for software mods, and $300 million more needed for stopping the leaks. That money has to come from somewhere, and Boston has concluded it should come from the contractors. Meanwhile, Boston is trying to 'cost recover' a few hundred million from the project to reduce the 'overrun'.
Not a good situation, but it's not nearly the "no end in sight" situation the FUD people describe.