Slashdot Mirror


RFC Deadline Looms For "Orphan Works" copy

psychonaut writes "As previously reported on Slashdot, the US Copyright Office is currently reviewing the law as it applies to "orphan works" and "abandonware". The question is how to treat works (books, films, software, etc.) for which the copyright owner cannot be found so that permission can be granted to republish or create derivative works. "The issue is whether orphan works are being needlessly removed from public access and their dissemination inhibited. If no one claims the copyright in a work," they write, "it appears likely that the public benefit of having access to the work would outweigh whatever copyright interest there might be." The Copyright Office has been soliciting comments from the public since 26 January 2005. Now, as their 25 March deadline draws nearer, the EFF, along with freeculture.org and Public Knowledge, have teamed up to produce a website,Orphan Works, which gives some background on the issue and makes it easy to submit comments directly to the Copyright Office." And while you're at, contribute to the EFF. Good organization.

200 comments

  1. What's wrong with the current system? by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why would anyone have a problem with a totally unaffiliated company buying the copyright of a work from a bankrupted company for pennies and then holding that copyrighted content hostage for the next 75 years?

    Anyone that has a problem with that is applying too much common sense to the copyright system.

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Ubergrendle · · Score: 4, Informative

      With the way copyright laws are going, we're lucky we see anything from the 20th century in the public domain. If the latest new copyright laws were grandfathered (e.g. 75 years after death of creator), we'd be looking at the 1850s.

      "Get your 100% royalty free cotton-gin blueprints right here! For an unlimited time only!!!!"

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    2. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Cylix · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't believe that is the issue.

      It's simply cost prohibitive for the little guy to locate the rights to an obscure piece of footage or film. (two examples I'm familiar with)

      Say for instance, you find a nice picture you want to incorporate and maybe it looks quite old, but maybe its unclear whether copyright has expired.

      It seems more to be a CYA directive and would ease some tension when using /most likely/ interesting works that have been locked away by age.

      Right now, it's not even an option to use such things even if the owner or estate owner has long since been gone. Simply because you just don't know and you probably can't afford the time or investment in something like that.

      This sorta implies that older copyrights would have to be protected much like trademark. You can just buy it and forget it. (Now you have to catalogue it and forget it)

      So if you did the leg work and came up with nothing you would have some defense in court should an issue arrise.

      For someone with not-so-unlimited resources tracking down something like that can be tough. In the end, if you are cautious about being sued, you can't use it.

      I believe the idea is that if you pursue a reasonable course of action to attempt to locate the owner and find nothing then it can be classified as abandonware.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    3. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by 91degrees · · Score: 0

      Yup. You are if you're not using ot for anything

    4. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Say for instance, you find a nice picture you want to incorporate and maybe it looks quite old, but maybe its unclear whether copyright has expired."

      What about this idea?

      Can't find copyright owner?

      Compulsory license applies. Fees paid to government. Invested by government in safe investments. Government keeps half of profits on investments and other half goes to pay authors who create copyleft works. Actual copyright owners who find their works being used under a compulsory can claim monies fgrom the government. (Can't get the profits earned in the meantime though.

      Compulsory license still applies to the works in question and to any derivatives.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    5. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WAHH.

      only pure greed and asshole-ness support the copyright as it is currently written. At MOST a sane person can support 15-20 years after the creator's death or 50 years after first copyright. And even then it's bullshit.

      you make all your money in the first 25 years of the copyright. It's greedy assholes that like to wrting every dime possible out of it (typically the no-talent children and grandchildren of the creator doing this) that are whining for perpetual copyright so they do not have to actually do anything productive in society.

      i so wish there was a way we could turn copyright upsdie down in this country, but with the government owned and paid for by corperate america, there is no chance.

      these times will be known as the dark ages. future historians will wonder how the hell we did anything with rampant greed and selfishness that is not only the norm, but the preferred behaivoir.

      and it's not like anythong lately is creative in any way.. the past 30 films I have seen advertised are remakes or based on someone else's work. copyright stifles creativity.

    6. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would say copyright should last for 25 years or in the event of the death of the author until any children are 25 years old.

      If you can find any work of mine 25 years old your welcome to it, and in 25 years time you can have all the work I've done up until today, I doubt I'll even be able to remember what most of it was, and it will no doubt be useless except for historical interest.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    7. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by mike2R · · Score: 1

      But with property there is a central registry, so finding out who owns a particular building is trivial.

      If there was no registry then it would be similar:
      1. You buy a buliding, then abandon it for decades.
      2. I find building, conduct due diligence but cannot find previous owner, and set up my own business there.
      3. You sue me for the money I've made (Profit!)

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    8. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      "Get your 100% royalty free cotton-gin blueprints right here! For an unlimited time only!!!!"

      Surely schematics for a device such as a cotton gin would be protected by patent, not copyright?

    9. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Ubergrendle · · Score: 1

      Surely schematics for a device such as a cotton gin would be protected by patent, not copyright? Yeah, you're probably right...but I don't know if that makes the situation better or worse. ;)

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    10. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the fun of the current system plus the copyright never expires and the money goes to the government for revenue and to pay for some idiot to take pictures of his meth lab and call it art.

      Please stay out of government.

    11. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I was thinking along similar lines, that there should be an "orphan works database" where people can submit whatever info is known about a given work, and thus build up a catalog of "not exactly public domain, but usable by all, within the context of this here compulsory license".

      Fees should probably be prorated according to intended use, too. So if it's for noncommercial use, the fee is minimal to zilch, and for commercial use the fee is a small percentage sortof like a sliding sales tax. Since commercial value can be hard to predict, it could be determined by gross sales receipts.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    12. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "All the fun of the current system plus the copyright never expires and the money goes to the government for revenue and to pay for some idiot to take pictures of his meth lab and call it art."

      You missed the point, I don't know if that was on purpose. There would be no extension to the term of the copyright. It could even be written in that if the works are not claimed in, say, five years, they are exempt from any further copyright extensions passed into law.

      "Please stay out of government."

      No worries there, I fully intend to stay very far away from that.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    13. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Fees should probably be prorated according to intended use, too."

      You could even place the works under some sort of copyleft license that allows for commercial use.

      That way, if you want what you distribute to be copyleft, no fees are due and you can pay fees to waive the copyleft requirements on your use.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    14. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      I can think of two words that provide a compelling argument FOR keeping the talentless children of artists idle and unproductive:

      Kelly Osborne.

      I think that says it all. But if you're still not convinced:

      Dweezil Zappa, Ignatio Inglesias, Julian Lennon...

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    15. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Orrin Hatch is one of the sponsering senators. Either that's because it was an inevitable committee and he wanted to stack it, or the media companies see some value in this. Who wants to bet we come out with abandonware being legal but corporations able to own works forever?

    16. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not sure the gov't (who would have to approve any such plan) can rightfully decide whether to copyleft orphaned works (after all, if the actual owner surfaces, they may vehemently object), but even so, the idea of the lic.fee being "small to zilch" was to allow for non-commercial use rather akin to copyleft. So the realworld effect would be much the same.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    17. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Well, I'm not sure the gov't (who would have to approve any such plan) can rightfully decide whether to copyleft orphaned works..."

      Well, since we are not talking natural rights but government created and granted rights in the first place, they can do pretty much what they decide to do and have been doing so for a while now. Just mostly (completely?) in the other direction.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    18. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      What I meant was... copyleft would be sortof like if you went on an extended trip overseas and could not be found, and the gov't decided to give your house to someone else. That wouldn't go over so well!

      But what would be reasonable, is for the gov't to have someone else *caretake* your house so that it doesn't get overgrown with weeds.

      It's not an exact parallel, but you get the idea :)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    19. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "It's not an exact parallel, but you get the idea :)"

      Yes, but since this copyright is a government granted monopoly on copying, etc. It would be kind of like they gave you the land to build on in the first place. (Again, not an exact parallel, but you get the idea ~;-)

      And now you have disappeared, are not taking care of the property they gave you, can't be contacted for them to collect property taxes, etc.

      So, for the first year after the notice is posted, it is not copyleft, if the copyright holder does not surface in that year, it goes copyleft. Please note, that even though it goes copyleft, the copyleft license could be structured in such a way that the big, monied players will not want to use that license and would still pay for a standard license for which the UN or the government would collect and bank the fees on your behalf.

      If you ever show up, you get the fees but not any growth on the investments. The growth could go half to the government or the UN (collecting body) and half to fund artists making copyleft works.

      Bam Sookie!

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    20. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "... but you get the idea ~;-) "

      [eyeing smiley] Your hair is on fire!!

      Okay, fair enough... except that I don't agree that "half to fund artists making copyleft works." -- I'm not convinced that art which can't pay for its own keep should be funded by the gov't -- tho if one must do so, this is a better source of funding than taxes!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    21. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "[eyeing smiley] Your hair is on fire!!"

      That's a feather in my cap... ~;-) and I am winking...

      "Okay, fair enough... except that I don't agree that "half to fund artists making copyleft works." -- I'm not convinced that art which can't pay for its own keep should be funded by the gov't"

      Not exactly being funded by the government, but by the copyright holder that has dropped out of sight. Right?

      Notice, I have not stated any method of determining who should receive this funding or in what amounts. That would be another discussion. Perhaps, instead, it could be used to buy the copyrights to older works and copyleft them. Perhaps fund after school education in the area that the copyright represents. (Think of the children!) Just don't let the government keep it all.

      http://zotz.openphoto.net/

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    22. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by Reziac · · Score: 1
      Ah, I see the feather now. You better tie your cap down, it's about to fly away ;)

      Okay, fair enough... except that I don't agree that "half to fund artists making copyleft works." -- I'm not convinced that art which can't pay for its own keep should be funded by the gov't"

      Not exactly being funded by the government, but by the copyright holder that has dropped out of sight. Right?

      Good point. Tho what if said invisible-copyright-holder disagrees with the concept, or with what his taxes are being used for? Also, he's been effectively taxed without representation.

      But I do agree, the gov't should not be the major beneficiary, nor begin viewing this as a means to acquire "free money" -- because the next step after that is emminent domain at the least excuse. (Which might be all well and good to put a screeching halt to galloping copyright-foreverness, but it's not really fair to go abroad for a couple years and return to find a freeway where your house used to be. :)

      I'll see your http://zotz.openphoto.net/, and raise you one http://www.longplain.com/ :)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    23. Re:What's wrong with the current system? by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Good point. Tho what if said invisible-copyright-holder disagrees with the concept, or with what his taxes are being used for? Also, he's been effectively taxed without representation."

      Well, he needs to manage his copyrights better to prevent this happening. Note that by not being careful to provide a working contact, he is preventing the public from using his work. If he ever surfaces, the copyleft could be removed and he could be in his old position except for derivatives made while the work was copylefted.

      Also note, I have never said that the fees collected for him should be divied up, only the profits gained as a result of investing these fees. If he ever turns up, he gets all the fees. If he never shows up and the copyrights expire, try and find his next of kin, etc. to distribute to, or wait a seven years and divy up then?

      "Also, he's been effectively taxed without representation."

      As to no taxation without representation, I like the sound of it, but the fact is, taxation without representation happens all the time pretty much everywhere I know about. Do you know any places where taxes are levied solely on those able to vote? It is not like that in my country and certainly not like that in the U.S.A. where iirc, the phrase is famous.

      "but it's not really fair to go abroad for a couple years and return to find a freeway where your house used to be."

      No, it is not fair, but in my country, others can take your land to which you have good and registered title if you do not watch the papers. (I am fairly sure it works this way here. IANAL.)

      If they can take your land if you do not tend it properly, why not your copyrights. As a matter of fact, if I understand things here correctly, the situation with real property is worse than what I am putting up for consideration.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
  2. Tone of words is interesting by barrkel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "If no one claims the copyright in a work," they write, "it appears likely that the public benefit of having access to the work would outweigh whatever copyright interest there might be."

    This indicates that the copyright office leans extremely strongly towards copyright interests. Is there any indication that they (the US copyright office) have the same perspective as most of the rest of us re copyright as enforced monopoly etc.?

    1. Re:Tone of words is interesting by sjames · · Score: 1

      (the US copyright office) have the same perspective as most of the rest of us re copyright as enforced monopoly etc.?

      Unlikely. Their primary interest (preservation and expansion of the copyright office) is better served through exclusive focus on copyright interests. What we really need is a public domain office where one may apply for a temporary exemption (AKA a copyright).

  3. Other copyright issues by sandstorming · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd like to see the laws also fixed on how long it is before works pass into the public domain. The so called disney effect (the extending of copyright periods after authors death, being done just before disney stuff reaches public domain) really needs to be fixed. Someone (and I can't remember his name) did a fantastic conference somewhere on copyright issues. http://free-culture.org/index.html has some great info.

    1. Re:Other copyright issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My child, you don't understand how the world works. He who has the gold makes the rules, you don't have any gold so what you want won't be the rule.

    2. Re:Other copyright issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The so called disney effect (the extending of copyright periods after authors death, being done just before disney stuff reaches public domain) really needs to be fixed.

      It is fixed. The Constitution is pretty clear that copyrights have to be time-limited. The Supreme Court has ruled that that doesn't really mean anything, because Congress can extend them arbitrarily, but unfortunately, that's the Supreme Court. By definition, there is no higher appeal. "Fixing" the loophole would pretty much require some kind of "No, we really meant it, guys" amendment to the Constitution, but fat chance of that. The people with the power to amend the Constitution are too busy worrying about the total destruction of society that will obviously and inevitably result from giving same-sex couples the tax privileges currently reserved for heterosexuals.

    3. Re:Other copyright issues by jabuzz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's easy to fix. If Disney wants to extend the copyright from 50 to 70 years say, then it has to go and pay royalties (complete with interest) to all the copyright holders that had their works used royalty free by Disney because it had passed the 50 year mark but not yet reached the 70 year mark, at any point in the past.

      It would then immediately become far less favourable for Disney (or any other organization) to presue such copyright extensions. Imagine thay they had to pay out the first 20 years earnings plus interest on Pinochio to the estate of Carlo Lorenzini! It is also morally and ethically fair. If Disney think that Steamboat Willy deserves added protection, then surely Pinochio does as well. Very hard to argue against and not look like obviously greedy and grasping.

    4. Re:Other copyright issues by Have+Blue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It wouldn't even need an amendment- all that needs to happen is for Congress to not pass another law extending existing copyrights when the issue comes up again in 20 years.

    5. Re:Other copyright issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the mods were thinking that the change in the copyright laws were made under CLINTON not BUSH therefore the slam at the current administration was illogical. Of course, you want to blame everything on the jesus lovers huh?

    6. Re:Other copyright issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Christian persecution is still in vogue I see. Mod me what you want troll.

    7. Re:Other copyright issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Who said anything about Christianity? The grandparent posting was obviously talking about those darn anti-gay Muslim fundamentalists who run the USA.

    8. Re:Other copyright issues by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...and when the issue comes up again in 21 years.

      ...and when the issue comes up again in 22 years.

      ...and when the issue comes up again in 23 years.

      ...and when the issue comes up again in 24 years.

      ...and when the issue comes up again in 25 years.

      Which is why it would pretty much take an amendment. And while we're wishing for the impossible, the amendment should also set the copyright term back at the original 14 years with a single option to renew for an additional 14 years, and would grant copyright only to works which explicitly claim copyright protection and deposit a copy with the government. Oh, and lets add a rider striping the citizenship and office from any legislator who introduces a bill with a cutesy name that spells out something the exact opposite of what it actually does.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  4. Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by cybrthng · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Obviously in todays political environment Money Talks. Is there any interest in the collective pool of technically minded folks from Slashdot starting a Political Action Committee in the sense that we support progressive, technological and scientific issues & candidates with our money and not just our collective angst?

    SlashPAC if you will.

    It would be a great place for us to consolidate our beliefs (wiki) and put our money where our mouth is to support politics and issues that reiterate our beliefs and values as a community.

    It would make calls for help like this easier to answer and give us some strength to lean on.

    1. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because slashdot aspires to be a real news organization and the EFF and FSF do pretty well.

    2. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by elhondo · · Score: 1

      Try ipac. www.ipaction.org

    3. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by MurkyWater · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know if this had previously been discussed but I've been thinking that something like this would be a good idea. We constantly see the effect Slashdot has on webservers. I would imagine a PAC consisting of even a portion of slashdotters could do great things. Especially if we worked together with other groups such as Citizen Works, the EFF, and the ACLU.

    4. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by cybrthng · · Score: 1

      Exactly,

      My idea of a PAC isn't to segregate ourselves from the others that exist, but use our collective voices to support existing groups under an umbrella reflective of the "grass roots geeks". EFF, Aclu, Citizen works and other groups do a fanstastic job and a new PAC could align on issues they agree with but also stand for issues specific to this community.

      The collective force of Slashdot is strong

    5. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by goldspider · · Score: 1

      This "collective voice" you speak of does not exist. If you haven't noticed, there are a lot of different opinions on various issues discussed here.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    6. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 2, Insightful

      consolidate our beliefs

      Yeah, and lemme take a look at that when you've pieced it together.

      "Our?" Who's "us?" Do you mean to imply that there is some commonality among the people posting on slashdot beyond gadget-fetish? The editors would like it if we were all left-leaning anti-copyright urban CTO's (so would their advertisers, for that matter...), but you need only spend 20 minutes here to realize that there is no "typical" poster, that our politics are all over the map, and that today's high school and college kids aren't getting nearly enough exercise and fresh air...

      support politics and issues that reiterate our beliefs and values as a community

      Stop it. You're killing me.

      Hey, no, seriously, what would you say are the shared values of an anti-copyrightist/artists-should-be-paid-only-for- their-performances guy and his comrade on the barricade who has obsessively collected every bit of Boba Fett-related merchandise manufactured since the mid-seventies?

      Is there a wiki for that?

    7. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by cybrthng · · Score: 1

      If i believed what you are saying then that would mean i have no reason to come back here.

      If i believed for one second that the world was perfect your saying would be true, but it isn't. We have our differences but we obviously have our collective indifferences that bring us back time after time.

    8. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The differences in opinion are exactly what keeps me coming back here. Sometimes I vehemently argue, and sometimes I learn something. This site would be boring as hell if everyone thought exactly the same way.

    9. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by earthbound+kid · · Score: 0

      First Bill!

    10. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by Guanix · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's already IPAC, which supported several candidates financially in the 2004 US election.

    11. Re:Why doesn't Slashdot start a PAC? by Darby · · Score: 1

      This site would be boring as hell if everyone thought exactly the same way.

      No it wouldn't!

  5. SlashPAC campaign slogan by duffbeer703 · · Score: 1, Funny

    "Hot grits in every pot & a Beowulf cluster in every basement!"

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    1. Re:SlashPAC campaign slogan by Darby · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but how do we work out the Natalie Portman time sharing?

  6. Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally I have no problem with "copyright as enforced monopoly", because frankly that was the whole idea with copyright to start with. You give them a temporary "monopoly", in exchange for getting those works from them in the first place.

    Thing is, most people only work for money. Yeah, in open source too. Check out the email addresses of contributors to all major components of Linux. Most work _is_ done by people paid to do so, even if they're paid by some OSS company.

    So copyright is a way to say "ok, if you do publish a book, here's how we'll allow you to make money out of it."

    I see nothing wrong with that. I _am_ willing to buy a good book, or a movie, or a music CD, rather than not have it available at all.

    "Why your work should be available for free" demagogue theories are good and fine, but in practice it never works that way: practically _noone_ works for free nowadays. The freeloaders actually get something paid for by someone else, not for free. E.g., everyone who downloaded a SuSE Linux ISO for free, rest assured that SuSE's work was paid for by people like me who bought the boxed distro repeatedly. E.g., everyone who has some free Linux distro installed on ReiserFS, can know that ReiserFS was sponsored by SuSE, so again, it was people like me whose money went into making that.

    So, again, I have nothing against copyright as a way for authors to make money. Beats not having those works available in the first place. Maybe it's not the perfect system, but it's the best we have so far.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by swv3752 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      See, the problem comes in that my taxes are being used to enforce your copyright. The deal is, for helping to enforce your copyright, we get free access after a limited time. The problem is that it becomes unlimited for any practical consideration. Anything created during my lifetime I can reasonably expect to die before a copyrighted work becomes public domain.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    2. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by zotz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "So, again, I have nothing against copyright as a way for authors to make money. Beats not having those works available in the first place. Maybe it's not the perfect system, but it's the best we have so far."

      No, I disagree, in fact, I think we have had a better copyright system in the past and have been making it steadily worse.

      I sometimes can't decide if I should fight to make it better, or fight to make it so bad that everyone cries foul and calls for scrapping the present system and trying to design a better one from scratch.

      Hey, here is a new way for small countries to profit:

      Sign on to the copyright conventions. Have citizens publish hugh quantities of material, never mind the quality. Then try to extradite foreigners for copyright violations. Have hugh fines and jail time on the books for such violations. Have local juries find them guilty, extract big money under threat of jail time in less than perfect facilities. Put fines in general fund so that citizens tax burden is reduced. This will "encourage" juries to bring in guilty verdicts.

      Anyone see any problems with this? (I should hope so, but what actually would prevent it happening.)

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    3. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by BorgDrone · · Score: 1
      Thing is, most people only work for money.
      I work for money because we live in a society where we need money. There are lots of things I would like to contribute to, not for pay but because it interests me and maybe to make the world a little bit of a better place, but I have to spend 8 hours a day + travel time in order to make enough money to feed myself and get a roof above my head.

      Capitalism truly sucks donkey balls, but it's the best system we've come up with, and untill someone invents a better system, we're stuck with it.

      That said, I think certain things need to be free in the interest of the public.
      e.g. art in all forms should be freely available, and artists should be paid by the government, providing their work entertains a certain minimum amount of people.

      Also, I think patents and especially copyright should be held by the original creator and not by companies, nor should it be transferrable. If you didn't invent/create something, you cannot hold the patent/copyright. How can you claim to 'own' an idea/creative work if it didn't spawn from your brain ?
    4. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by operagost · · Score: 0

      With apologies to Winston Churchill, but it has been said that capitalism is the worst economic system except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Also, I think patents and especially copyright should be held by the original creator and not by companies, nor should it be transferrable. If you didn't invent/create something, you cannot hold the patent/copyright. How can you claim to 'own' an idea/creative work if it didn't spawn from your brain ?"

      Not that I particularly like the way the current system is working, but how can the creator "own" something if he cannot sell it? This is a tough problem to solve. Any good ideas?

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    6. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

      but how can the creator "own" something if he cannot sell it?

      In the exact same way record labels / patent owners don't sell the ownership of a piece of IP : license the right to use the IP.

    7. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by zotz · · Score: 1

      "In the exact same way record labels / patent owners don't sell the ownership of a piece of IP : license the right to use the IP."

      Sure, ok, so more how things work with books than with music?

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    8. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by zotz · · Score: 1

      "In the exact same way record labels / patent owners don't sell the ownership of a piece of IP : license the right to use the IP."

      How would this impact the first sale doctrine, if at all?

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    9. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1
      Thing is, most people only work for money.

      Most people expect to get paid when they provide a desired good or service. Only "intellectual property" owners expect to get paid every time one of their "products" is distributed, even though they did the work to create it only once.

    10. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by indifferent+children · · Score: 1
      Hey, here is a new way for small countries to profit: Sign on to the copyright conventions. Have citizens publish hugh quantities of material, never mind the quality. Then try to extradite foreigners for copyright violations.

      A similar way for those countries to use copyright laws to their advantage:

      1) Impose draconian measures (like 20 years in prison and a fine equal to five years salary) for copyright infringement.

      2) Allow M$, RIAA and other US content publishers to keep charging US-equiv prices for their goods (like 3 years of avg worker salary for a copy of M$ Office).

      3) Enforce the laws with gusto.

      4) Watch your local artists and software industries earn the majority of your citizens' spending on 'IP', instead of watching cultural and technological mindshare favor foreign products.

      5) Watch the local version of 'reasonable' amounts of cash-for-IP stay inside your economy, instead of a small percentage of users sending relatively high amounts of cash outside your borders to the US (while the rest just infringe copyrights). Whether you tax that money or not, you will create a more powerful and vibrant economy for your country.

      6) Watch your local companies use OpenSource apps where possible, thus further "empowering" your local software consulting and support companies.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    11. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      See, the problem comes in that my taxes are being used to enforce your copyright.
      Equally my taxes are being used to enforce *your* copyright. That's called providing for the common welfare.

      (And actually the goverment doesn't spend a time enforcing copyrights - thats the responsobility of the copyright holder.)

    12. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      "There are lots of things I would like to contribute to, not for pay but because it interests me...but I have to spend 8 hours a day + travel time in order to make enough money..."

      Boo bloody hoo, the slow drip you can't hear is my heart not bleeding for you. Perhaps if you could work out a way of being paid for the work you want to contibute to, you could afford to contribute more. See the logic? It's not a question of greed, it's about recognising the unfortunate necessity of life-support tokens, being pragmatic enough to realise that just moaning isn't going to change your situation, and devising some kind of scheme that fits in with the way the world works rather than how you'd like it to work (that way lies madness...seiously, I've seen a lot of people lose the plot because they couldn't accept the world wouldn't change to suit them. The arts have a particularly high rate of mental illness). You can't redesign the world, but you can redesign your plans.

      "art in all forms should be freely available, and artists should be paid by the government, providing their work entertains a certain minimum amount of people."

      Compare to the current situation: artists are paid for their work, by the people who consume it, minimum number of people 250,000 (roughly the point where major label albums show a profit on paper*). Cost to taxpayer: nil. In fact, the income is taxed (yes, even record companies pay tax), so it's a net gain for the tax base. The system you propose asks everyone to pay, regardless of whether they benefit directly, and replaces a corporate bureaucracy with a government one while being an additional tax burden. Think that will be popular? I don't, even though I actually like the idea.

      "Also, I think patents and especially copyright should be held by the original creator and not by companies, nor should it be transferrable."

      Copyright ownership isn't transferrable, rights can only be licensed. Example: I have two albums of material assigned to Universal Music Publishing, whose job it is to sell use of that material (game shows, commercials, films, etc). The license expires in 2007, and control of that music reverts to me; Universal is out of the picture all together. The reason the contract duration is much shorter than copyright is entirely down to the fact that I have a red pen and I'm not afraid to use it.

      "If you didn't invent/create something, you cannot hold the patent/copyright."

      Continuing the example, the recordings (that is, the fixed version of the copyright work) were commissioned by a company that was absorbed by Sony/BMG. That means Sony/BMG owns the rights to that particular performance and are allowed to use it under the terms of an exclusive license with Universal, the exclusivity expiring when publishing contract does. The recording contract (which is seperate to the publishing contract) also specifies that I must not record the same material for anyone else for as long as the exclusive license exists. However, the rights to the recordings themselves stay with Sony/BMG for the duration of copyright (which I think is fair enough since they paid to have them made), so if I want to release the same songs on a different label or independently I will need to make new recordings. I don't have a problem with this because, within certain limits that I agreed to which will soon be lifted, the songs are still mine, and Sony/BMG still have to pay me royalties to use the recordings they own the rights to. But the point is, without the record company to fund the recordings, they wouldn't have hapened; thus the record company becomes a co-creator, but only of the recording, not the work itself.

      "How can you claim to 'own' an idea/creative work if it didn't spawn from your brain ?"

      How about if you put in the money or other resources that make the work a reality? That doesn't strike me as being unfair in principle (creative accounting aside*), though I do think that there should be a patent sharing arrangement between companies and employe

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    13. Re:Part 1: What I find _ok_ about copyright by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      And actually the goverment doesn't spend a time enforcing copyrights - thats the responsobility of the copyright holder.

      Wrong. Police raids are government, as are judges and the assorted paperwork and backend services.

  7. Duplication of efforts? by PornMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wouldn't it be wiser to support the EFF who's already working on these things?

    1. Re:Duplication of efforts? by cybrthng · · Score: 1

      It's not a duplication of effort when "SlashPAC" could fund EFF issues (or any other foundation) that are inline with the goals of the PAC.

    2. Re:Duplication of efforts? by geminidomino · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Depends... If SlashPAC was pro-spam, it would be equally as worthless as the EFF.

      (Yes, that single position, that the EFF presumes to tell me what I should and should not do with my private property, does indeed preclude ANY chance of me giving them one red cent.)

    3. Re:Duplication of efforts? by dAzED1 · · Score: 1
      so if I own a hammer, and want to smash your spamming hands with it - the hammer is my private property, right?

      keep your money. It's tained anyway.

    4. Re:Duplication of efforts? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the hands are mine. Telling spammers they can't send my servers mail doesn't DAMAGE them in any way, yet according to the EFF, I should have to let all that crap in, and burn time, disk space, and CPU filtering it with pseudo-intelligent Bayesian crud, etc...

      Am I mistaken, or are you under the incorrect assumption that I *am* a spammer? Otherwise, I don't get the remark about my money being tainted. I don't make money with my anti-spam efforts...

    5. Re:Duplication of efforts? by dAzED1 · · Score: 1
      ah, you are correct; I was under an incorrect assumption, and for that I apologize. I thought you were trying to say you should be allowed to spam me with your servers, since it is your property. I haven't been keeping up with all the bickering and politics in the world lately, esp not in the tech industry. So EFF wants you to have to do the work to filter spam, instead of working to stop spammers in the first place? Never work, spam will just increase (like it has) until the cost of filtering has become too much to bear.

      Guess that's why I've reaquianted myself with phones, snail mail, and good old-fashioned face-to-face lately. Noise to static ratio has gotten higher than I care to deal with.

  8. Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What I find all wrong about copyright, as it is right now, is that it also gives the right to _kill_ a work of art or a program. You can buy the copyright to something for the _sole_ purpose of burying it 6 ft deep. I.e., making sure no more copies of it will be made.

    Which was _not_ the purpose of copyright in the first place. The idea was to secure a source of income for those publishing books, _but_ that was only a means to another end: having those books available to society. Using copyright as a way to make them UNavailable, is IMHO contrary to the whole spirit and idea of copyright.

    And just for the sake of a wanton comparison with Soviet Russia, I find it stupid that while we all were/are outraged when a dictatorship tries to suppress a book, we all shrug and find it normal when a corporation does the same via copyright. I mean, geesh, Stalin could have just bought the exclusive distribution rights in the USSR of the exact same works, and killed them via copyright, and we'd all suddenly no longer find it abhominable. It would be just normal business. Think about it.

    So IMHO the copyright should only last as long as people can still order that book or program or music from you, for no more than the original price (i.e., no "yeah, it's still available, but we'll charge 10,000,000$ for it" scams), and have it delivered within a reasonable time frame. The moment that's no longer possible, the copyright should become public domain.

    It would also be a self-regulating kinda thing. It's up to the company in case to decide when it's no longer profitable to keep that stock of old books, just for the 1-2 people per year still ordering it. When they decide it's no longer profitable to play that game, sure, make it public domain. But ffs, don't bury it.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Heian-794 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are there many real-world examples of corporations saying things like, "Well, we can't be bothered to print up another hundred copies of that textbook just so your students can buy it. Go ahead and make photocopies if you really want to teach the class using our book."? This came up in a linguistics class of mine, which used Shiro Hattori's phonetics book (retail price, about $50). The professor had been using it for 20 years and found that the publisher wasn't receiving much demand.

      It seems to me that even if corporations *could* bury their unprofitable work, it would be good PR if they chose not to, and it wouldn't cost them a dime. Are any publishers known for doing this?

    2. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by dallaylaen · · Score: 1

      ...for no more than the original price (i.e., no "yeah, it's still available, but we'll charge 10,000,000$ for it" scams)...

      I agree with the most part of your post... Except that I'd rather live in a world where copyright just cannot be taken away from one who recieved it legitimately.

      One should be able to share the rights, not give them away.

      Unfortunately, this is good for authors and general public, but bad for publishers (recording companies as well).

      --
      WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
    3. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by shimmin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Disney. Song of the the South. Also much of their WWII-era propoganda stuff. Now all-but-buried because it has become politically embarrassing.

    4. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brilliant idea!
      Now I'm going to go into business as a comic book company... if they're not printing any more, I can print them, right? and with scanning and reprinting being my only costs, I'll be rich! Hmm, no? now what if there were reasonable limits on the length of a copyright as they work now, let's say 20 years... ahhh, that would ensure people had enough time to profit without being ripped off... it's not a bad scheme after all, it is just a little broken.

    5. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by zotz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "What I find all wrong about copyright, as it is right now, is that it also gives the right to _kill_ a work of art or a program. You can buy the copyright to something for the _sole_ purpose of burying it 6 ft deep. I.e., making sure no more copies of it will be made.

      Which was _not_ the purpose of copyright in the first place. The idea was to secure a source of income for those publishing books, _but_ that was only a means to another end: having those books available to society. Using copyright as a way to make them UNavailable, is IMHO contrary to the whole spirit and idea of copyright."

      You are so right on this. There needs to be compulsory licenses at least to prevednt this practice. Perhaps they only need to kick in when the copyright owners refuse to keep the work available to the mass market at mass market prices.

      "And just for the sake of a wanton comparison with Soviet Russia, I find it stupid that while we all were/are outraged when a dictatorship tries to suppress a book, we all shrug and find it normal when a corporation does the same via copyright. I mean, geesh, Stalin could have just bought the exclusive distribution rights in the USSR of the exact same works, and killed them via copyright, and we'd all suddenly no longer find it abhominable. It would be just normal business. Think about it."

      You are certainly racking up the good points. Perhaps he could even have used "eminent domain" theories to take the work in the first place.

      "So IMHO the copyright should only last as long as people can still order that book or program or music from you, for no more than the original price (i.e., no "yeah, it's still available, but we'll charge 10,000,000$ for it" scams), and have it delivered within a reasonable time frame. The moment that's no longer possible, the copyright should become public domain.

      It would also be a self-regulating kinda thing. It's up to the company in case to decide when it's no longer profitable to keep that stock of old books, just for the 1-2 people per year still ordering it. When they decide it's no longer profitable to play that game, sure, make it public domain. But ffs, don't bury it."

      This would work. An alternative would be to have all copyrights pass back to the original authors under something like a CC BY-SA or some other copyleft license. This would allow the authors to try earning some more out of their works and at the same time let the general public get access to the works as well for copying, creating derivatives and making money if they can.

      Check some of these legal proposals:

      http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/index.php/Copyri gh t_Term_Reform#Legal_Proposals

      especially this one:

      http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/index.php/Copyri gh t_Term_Reform/Default

      Again, great points.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    6. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, this is good for authors and general public, but bad for publishers

      In the modern world, with the cost of copying and disseminating a digital work approaching zero, what value do publishers actually add?

    7. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the company isn't selling those old comics any more, how is it profitting from them any more to start with? What would the income lost there? The exactly zero dollars that they're losing there?

      And if re-printing old comics would be so profitable for you, what's keeping the copyright owner from doing the same? I mean, they don't even have the scanning costs in that equation?

      Basically all I'm saying is that I _do_ support the idea that "ok, you're allowed to make money from creating something." But then comes the moment they're _not_, in fact, either making any money or even trying to make any money out of it. Then it seems to me like we're way past the point and the scope of what copyright was supposed to solve.

      But I'm also for keeping in mind what copyright was supposed to solve: making those works _available_. The moment that's no longer happening, it seems to me like the copyright no longer fulfills its _main_ role and function.

      As I've said: as long as it's still profitable to print those old comics (again, they don't have the scanning costs, so it's easier for them to be profitable than it is for you), sure, let them keep the copyright.

      You'll also notice that I didn't really put any limits there on _how_ it is to be delivered. I just said I should be able to order it, for no more than the original price. It can be a PDF, if it's a book, or it can be printed-to-order on a nearby color laser printer for comics, or whatever. They just have to keep making it _available_ to keep the copyright.

      Because, as I've said, that was the whole idea of copyright to start with. It was _not_ just supposed to support corporate money. So I hardly think it's that unreasonable to expect it to actually fulfill that promise.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    8. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by quisph · · Score: 1
      we all were/are outraged when a dictatorship tries to suppress a book, we all shrug and find it normal when a corporation does the same via copyright.
      Sometimes the best way to market something is first to create artificial scarcity. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's a far cry from Soviet-style censorship. (There should be a clause in Godwin's Law to cover Soviet Russia comparisons; they're usually just as irrelevant and inflammatory as comparisons with Nazi Germany.)

      More to the point, though, is that you can't take this power away from one subset of copyright owners (i.e., the ones *you* don't like) but leave it in place for everyone else. So if you take this power away from corporate publishers, it would affect original authors as well. Suppose you had written something embarrassingly bad when you were young. Would it be sensible to say that the government should be able to FORCE you to make it public?

      For that matter, under current law, virtually everything you write is instantly copyrighted. First drafts, random scribblings, doodles, snippets of code. How would you like all of it to be made public against your will? If a publisher shouldn't be able to own a copyright without keeping the work perpetually in print, neither should you.
      </devil's advocate>

    9. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by jtev · · Score: 1

      Bad example, most old (golden age) comic books aren't copyrighted, go ahead and scan and print all you want. Just make sure to check the status on the particular work you're doing.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
    10. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Jonathan_S · · Score: 1
      You'll also notice that I didn't really put any limits there on _how_ it is to be delivered. I just said I should be able to order it, for no more than the original price. It can be a PDF, if it's a book, or it can be printed-to-order on a nearby color laser printer for comics, or whatever. They just have to keep making it _available_ to keep the copyright.
      Sweet, so I can stock up on all those old paperback Sci Fi books for $0.25 each? That is what they are listed for in the back pages of many of book in my collection

      It's kind of unfair to limit the company to original price 20 or 30 years later. At least allow for original price + inflation.

      Even for fairly new books, moving to a print on demand setup involves higher cost per book than the bulk printings normally used. But if they did bulk printings for less popular books then they would have the upfront expense of paying for a bulk run, followed by the recurring expense of storing the excess for years until they had sold down.

      Obviously some of this could be mitigated against by offering the work in a non-physical form, but I don't feel it would be out of line to charge somewhat extra for a otherwise out of print work than the normal market rate for mass produced copies. However I do agree there needs to be some protection from arbitrarily high rates.
    11. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      True, you have a very good point there. Allowing for inflation seems only fair. I don't intend to rip those people off, after all.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    12. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Alsee · · Score: 1

      you can't take this power away from one subset of copyright owners (i.e., the ones *you* don't like)

      Huh? Where did he say any such thing? Unless I missed somthing, it obviously and properly applies to everyone equally.

      government should be able to FORCE you to make it public?

      HUH? The government isn't sending SWAT teams to search your house and seize your diary. It's not forcing anyone to do anything. No one can ever copy anything they don't already have.

      Perhaps it will help to cover the correct foundation of copyright. The initial "natural" state for all information (works) is in the public domain. No one ever has to give anyone anything, but once you *do* give someone something you have no inherent right to prevent them from making more copies. From this state we chose to seize certain natural freedom from the public and temporarily give those rights to the author, and this is done for the SOLE purpose of increasing the availability of works to the public. It generally establishes a temporary artificial financial incentive for people to create and publish. If you don't object a US-centric view, I can cite US Supreme Court rulings that this is in fact the correct explanation of copyright.

      When copyright is *not* serving it's purpose of encouraging creation distribution then there is no justification for seizing that natural freedom away from the public. The natural freedom to write (or copy) anything you wish. That freedom and those rights can ONLY be taken away in proper service of benefiting the public, for promoting creation and publication and progress.

      We are merely discussing early termination of the GRANT of an artificial right to sue people for copying something they already have. That grant should be rescinded when it no longer serves its purpose.

      Copyright is a good and useful thing... when it is valid copyright law in proper service of its purpose.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    13. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by rworne · · Score: 1

      As far as the US is concerned. They have no problems whoring Song of the South out to foreign countries to make a buck (Such as Japan and Europe) and not releasing it here in the US.

      Lately it's been off the market anywhere since 2001 or thereabouts. It's been off the market in the US for a hell of a lot longer. The last I saw of it was a theater release back in the late 70's.

      The Tex Avery films and other cartoon classics can still be seen overseas. I've watched Heckle & Jeckle hunt pygmies using certain bait (watermelon) and depicted the African natives in a racist, sterotypical fashion. All of this on a children's show in Japan.

      If the copyright holders can make a buck off of it, they certainly will. Even political correctness won't stop them. They just find a new market.

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
    14. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem, as I see it (I'm the original AC poster above) is that if Marvel doesn't sell January's Spider Man anymore I should not be able to sell Spider Man at a month delay at a cheaper cost, it would hurt their sales if everyone knew they could get spiderman from me instead. And your idea doesn't cover derivative works at all. For example, you write a book, publish it, it doesn't do well, falls out of print, should I be allowed to, the day I can no longer obtain the book from you, grab your setting and characters and write a sequel?

    15. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " More to the point, though, is that you can't take this power away from one subset of copyright owners (i.e., the ones *you* don't like) but leave it in place for everyone else. So if you take this power away from corporate publishers, it would affect original authors as well. Suppose you had written something embarrassingly bad when you were young. Would it be sensible to say that the government should be able to FORCE you to make it public?"

      Simple, if copyright owners will no longer make previously PUBLISHED works available in the market, compulsary licenses apply.

      Non-published works are not forced to be published. Published works cannot be withheld from the public throught the use of copyright laws.

      I would probably only give non-published works a pass if the author made an effort to keep them secret though. There are still issues with this thought though.

      all the best,

      drew (zotz)

    16. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      1. I never said only some should live by those rules. I do want them to apply to _everyone_, not just a subset. Doesn't matter if I like them or not. Doesn't matter if they're a corporation, or a country, or a garage band publishing their own MP3s on the Internet.

      Once something is published, copyright should _not_ be a way to "unpublish" it. For anyone. Ever. That's my whole point.

      2. I'm not saying that government should come to your house, raid your diary, and post it on the web. In fact, the government shouldn't do anything whatsoever.

      But if you did publish an embarassing story or novel or song with your high school band, you shouldn't be allowed to "unpublish" it. If people still want to buy that story or song or novel, they should be able to either buy it or legally copy it.

      Again, that is assuming that you did publish it once to start with.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    17. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Informative

      1. It wouldn't hurt Marvel that much to keep January's Spiderman available for another month, if that's the problem. They can easily either print enough for a year in the first place, or just let someone get those comics scanned over the web for the full fee for a 20 years, or whatever. Again, I've stated no restrictions as to _how_ those works should still be available.

      Frankly, neither of the above costs a fortune. If old Dilbert or Calvin and Hobbes comics can still be viewed online for a minor fee, I fail to see why the same couldn't apply to old Marvel comics. No, really, what would be their loss there? If anything, it would be an extra (if small) source of profit.

      And if even that's not worth their effort, then what's their loss anyway? That someone might not buy today, on account that in a few decades they'll get them for free? Somehow I doubt that that many people are willing to wait that long.

      2. I think it's already possible to cover characters and settings as trademarks, rather than copyright.

      E.g., in Marvel's case, witness the recent lawsuit against the makers of City Of Heroes. The issue there was _not_ one of copyright. It was entirely over trademarks.

      E.g., even if half of Disney's stuff finally went public domain, you still couldn't make your own Mickey Mouse cartoons. Because Mickey is a trademark. You could, however, copy some old movies that Disney basically wants to bury.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    18. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by WompPetrovski · · Score: 1

      Why should someone who designs or creates something not have the right to destroy it? If someone paints a picture, lots of people like it, but after time the artist decides he doesn't like it anymore (maybe because it represented something s/he now disagrees with), why can't they destroy it? If a company writes a piece of software and over time it improves and then evolves into another product, why can't they 'destroy' the old version. You mention the idea of being able to buy something long after it's heyday but so long as they don't have to pay large sums. What happens if the technology to reproduce the item no longer exists, it has been superceeded and to try and recreate the old item may sincerely cost a lot of money. Just because you decide to no longer sell something, why should you lose the copyright to the works? What happens if in the future you decide to reinstate your idea? At the end of the day, if you own the copyright, you own the item that was copyrighted. if you own the item, you can do with it what you like.

    19. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by nanoakron · · Score: 1

      Did you send your opinions to the copyright office via the Orphan Works website or via the EFF, or did you just decide to get on your soapbox here on /. and mouth off your opinions where they don't need to be backed up?

    20. Re:Part 2: What I find _wrong_ about it by MikeVx · · Score: 1
      It's kind of unfair to limit the company to original price 20 or 30 years later. At least allow for original price + inflation.

      The purpose of copyright was to enrich the public domain, so inflation actually works to the public benefit if the restriction was as stated. At some point, it won't be worth it to the 'rightsholder' to continue to publish the work at the original price, so it goes to the public domain. It would be interesting to see just how badly Disney would want to keep thier mitts on Mickey Mouse.

      The practical limits of distribution being what they are, I suspect that lots of stuff would go public domain simply because maintining the continuous availability of everything they ever made would be beyond even the largest of companies after a while.
      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
  9. This is humorous in a way. by bigattichouse · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was trying to secure rights to stream several movies.. and guess what, for all the MPAA and RIAA's heavy handedness over people not getting rights? I couldn't... couldn't even figure out who to talk to, and no one that I called could do more than refer me to some large outlets that said "We don't do that." So not only are they going after people for electronic distribution of their works, they make it damn near impossible to actually license said works for electronic distribution. silly bastards. To put this in the perspective of the post, I honestly felt that they had "abandoned" the electronic medium, I hope the law says "fire away" to people who can't find licensing channels for works.

    --
    meh
    1. Re:This is humorous in a way. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So not only are they going after people for electronic distribution of their works, they make it damn near impossible to actually license said works for electronic distribution. silly bastards.
      You say that as though they have some obligation to make it easy, or even possible, for you. They don't. You are entitled to nothing except what they decide to allow, or what fair use covers; that's the nature of copyright.

      The other side of the coin (the non-??AA, non-evil side) is that you, as a copyright owner, are likewise under no obligation to anyone to do anything you don't want to do with your own works. You should be happy about that.

    2. Re:This is humorous in a way. by msbsod · · Score: 1

      80% of the market price for DVD's is profit for the distributers [PBS], not the copyright owners. This is why the MPAA, RIAA and similar interest groups are not interested in the distribution of movies through new channels, unless their members control these channels.

  10. Corporate influence by wschalle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Corporate influence will play more part in this than anything the public will ever say about it.

    1. Re:Corporate influence by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

      why? if a copyright owner can not be found, a corporation can not buy the work. I see no corporate interest here.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    2. Re:Corporate influence by wschalle · · Score: 0

      Oh. All's well then.

    3. Re:Corporate influence by dallaylaen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > why? if a copyright owner can not be found, a corporation can not buy the work. I see no corporate interest here.

      Let's say a company that wrote some useful software a few years ago has gone. Now, only the competing software from Microsoft (tm) is widely awailable and supported. If the old sources went to public domain, they could easily be adopted by some new company or even a crown of hackers. And MS does not need yet another Firefox. They just don't like competition.

      Consider a book that has gone to public domain. Everione can publish it at will, it's available on the net for free, etc. Unneeded competition to the new books (for which the copyright is "belong to us" (c) ).

      So, the less public domain, the less competition in IP areas, the more profits.

      BTW, when it comes to art, old works are usually filtered through the waters of Lethe: only the best ones remain. "Manuscripts do not burn" (c) M. Bulgakov. And they are hard to compete against.

      --
      WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
    4. Re:Corporate influence by zotz · · Score: 1

      " why? if a copyright owner can not be found, a corporation can not buy the work. I see no corporate interest here."

      it could be in the corporate interests that there be no public domain as those works compete with the corporate owned ones.

      naturally what they might like even better is if works passing into the public domain were only useable by corporations.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
  11. But it's broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The dispute isn't about whether people are able to make a profit off of their published works. Copyright isn't just about making sure people can make a profit. In fact, the OSS examples show that copyright isn't always necessary to find a revenue stream. The published work can be used as a loss-leader to promote services or hardware sales.

    The idea was the provide a temporary monopoly on published work in order to expand what is available in the public domain. The concern was that if the temporary monopoly wasn't available, then no-one would want to publish their works. Thus, the public domain would dry up. This clearly isn't a problem anymore with the Internet. People hapilly publish their works on order to get recognition from others.

    The only problem they are trying to address is that copyright was changed in a way that caused it to no longer add to the public domain. You no longer have to register published works for copyright. This can make it very difficult to track down the owner to get permission to re-publish it. Thus we now have a large body of work that no-one is utilizing. It's wasted.

    1. Re:But it's broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      OK, thats the dumbest thing I've heard around here for a long time. Having a temporary copyright on a work isn't nescessary because "people hapilly publish their works on order to get recognition from others."?

      Well, guess what, I DON'T happily publish my works in order to get recognition. I am not stupid, I want to make money from my works - therefore I want the protection that copyright gives me. And the vast majority of people who produce IP agree with me.

      Just because sf.net has 100,000 unfinished mp3 labelers available doesn't mean we should get rid of the copyright system which has served us well for over 100 years.

    2. Re:But it's broken by epcraig · · Score: 1

      It's been 100 Years since 1976? Who'd o' thunk it?
      Before that, to register a copyright was a bit harder, you needed to provide a copy of the work to the Library of Congress, for instance.

      --
      Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
    3. Re:But it's broken by LetterJ · · Score: 3, Informative

      The "system which has served us well for over 100 years" isn't a single, constant system reaching back to the Constitution. Rather, it's mutated quite a bit, especially in the last 30 years. To defend most of the major parameters of modern copyright is really to defend the changes of the last 30 years.

      Up until then, you had to specifically register anything you wanted copyrighted. This ensured that the work that the "vast majority of people who produce IP" to make money from their works were protected, while allowing everything else to be public domain (the stuff created for reasons other than money). For most of the time before 1976, you also had to renew that copyright periodically to keep it.

      Essentially, for the first 200 years of American copyright, making money from IP was an active process: deliberately file for copyright, include specific notice on all published copies, renew to continue copyright, etc.

      What we have now is a passive process: everything is automatically copyrighted, notice doesn't need to be included, no renewals are needed and your family gets to automatically keep these passive rights long after you're dead.

      Those 2 systems, while both called "copyright", have little in common as far as their approach, intent and results.

    4. Re:But it's broken by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      Just because sf.net has 100,000 unfinished mp3 labelers available doesn't mean we should get rid of the copyright system which has served us well for over 100 years.

      Because clearly the preceding ~6000 years of civilisation didn't produce anything of cultural value...

    5. Re:But it's broken by zotz · · Score: 1

      "The only problem they are trying to address is that copyright was changed in a way that caused it to no longer add to the public domain. You no longer have to register published works for copyright. This can make it very difficult to track down the owner to get permission to re-publish it. Thus we now have a large body of work that no-one is utilizing. It's wasted."

      A possible solution to this problem:

      http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/index.php/Copyri gh t_Term_Reform/Default

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    6. Re:But it's broken by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Just because sf.net has 100,000 unfinished mp3 labelers available doesn't mean we should get rid of the copyright system which has served us well for over 100 years."

      If it is serving us so well, why do the big boys keep finding a need to tweak it to their benefit. If they can validly, in your mind, call for these tweaks, why is it not permitted for others to call for tweaks in their interests?

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    7. Re:But it's broken by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      "Because clearly the preceding ~6000 years of civilisation didn't produce anything of cultural value..."

      Nothing of the sort was implied.

      However, the last 100 years have seen the largest advances in science and technology and the greatest number of inventions, while commercially funded R&D has outstripped government research for the first time in history. Are you prepared to dismiss that as pure coincidence?

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    8. Re:But it's broken by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      It is relative. Which invention do you think was more important? The automobile or the wheel and axle?

      The fact that knowledge is incremental by nature means that the later inventions will tend to be more spectacular by accretion of previously known things.

      Anyway I think copyright is ok, given reasonable terms. Patents on the other hand can be quite bad, since they prevent someone from selling something they created, just because someone else had the idea first and you didn't know about it. It is totally stupid.

    9. Re:But it's broken by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      However, the last 100 years have seen the largest advances in science and technology and the greatest number of inventions, while commercially funded R&D has outstripped government research for the first time in history. Are you prepared to dismiss that as pure coincidence?

      The question you need to consider is whether or not technology would have advanced even faster if the *restrictions* "intellectual property" demands of knowledge hadn't existed.

    10. Re:But it's broken by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      "The question you need to consider is whether or not technology would have advanced even faster if the *restrictions* "intellectual property" demands of knowledge hadn't existed."

      How long is a piece of string? That's another unanswerable question that deserves just as much consideration.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  12. Re:Ummm.... how 'bout NO! by cybrthng · · Score: 1

    The FSF and EFF don't always go in the realm that slashdot does (or the community wants it to do).

    Your idea of politics doesn't jive with anything that exists today. Nothing is black & white. Simply ignoring the power of the community because you may not agree with 100% of it is worse off than taking action you may not always agree with.

    The PAC wouldn't have to be funded through the commercial efforts of the site but through contributions and efforts outside of that. Obviously a PAC means much more when its "grass roots" based and i think with the size of the community here that could be a sizeable force - not of just money but people with talent & experience to make a difference (whom are willing to do so)

  13. Oromissory estoppel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is only good if

    1) The *current* copyright holder is OK
    2) You have the OK in writing
    PS the idea has been one I have raised may times here in the UK with two governments.

    No answer, however, and no change.

  14. Orpan works legislation is a trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Orphan works legislation ... it can be used in 2020 to again increase the length of copyright ownership. The unethical publishers and copyright holders will demand that the 99 year copyright expiration date be further increased because orphan works will be available for the public. I don't know sounds like they'll be given an easy path out.

    Plus, how do you know when something is an orphan work? Is it fair that some copyright holders get more "rights" and others dont?

    All creators and profitters of new works benefitted from public availability of knowledge, yet it seems some dont wish to give back. Especially with patents, patents are being awarded for 20 years when most of the inventions would have been invented by others within that 20 years. Only a few hundred patents a year should be awarded and the term decreased to 14 years.

    It's ridiculous that 100 years ago when it took much longer for a person to profit off a work, that the copyright term was short. But nowadays a person can profit off their work much faster yet they maintain copyright for longer (99 years following death of creator). This 99 years will be extended again by the 2020's no doubt.

    1. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1
      Plus, how do you know when something is an orphan work?

      The same way as originally. Tell them to send in a cheque for $1 to the copyright office once every seven years to prove they still exist.

    2. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by shimmin · · Score: 1

      In the US anyway, it will be a hard legal case to show that a term > 99 years is a "limited time" in a constitutional sense. Under the common law, there are a number of instances where the maximum length of time something can be leased, etc. is 99 years, because a longer term would be indistinguishable from outright sale.

    3. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by menace3society · · Score: 1

      Given that we've gotten up to, what is it, 90 years now, it won't be long until 100 years is perfectly acceptable. The Supreme Court has already said that a part in the Constitution about a "reasonable" amount of time doesn't mean anything. Congress is against us, the Supreme Court is against, and if the President cares about the issue at all he's probably against us too.

    4. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by shimmin · · Score: 1

      Read footnote 17 of the court's decision in Eldred. While they shy away from saying that the 99-year term marks the outer boundary of the "limited times," they do mention both it and another common law term, "lives in being plus 21 years" as worth taking into consideration when drawing the line between constitutionally acceptable times, and those that while limited in a dictionary sense are effectively perpetual times.

    5. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and just how is 90 years, greater than the majority of peoples life spans still a "limited time" ? given the 90 years after death of the author rule, then a work can take getting up to around 150 years before becoming public domain. (assuming kids don't produce anything)

    6. Re:Orpan works legislation is a trap by InstantCrisis · · Score: 1

      I was talking with people recently about how the internet, or even just our modern culture, provides a faster rate of return on IP and a more urgent need to legally be able to build on existing IP, so copyright terms should be taken down to 10 years. Copyrights are supposed to encourage people to create. What could be more encouraging than a sudden drop in revenue? Innovate!

  15. You just don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No, that is NOT at all what the Supreme Court ruling said. The Supreme Court very carefully stated that their ruling was not about whether 75 years after the death of the copyrighter was a good idea or not but whether it was legal. They ruled that 75 years after the death of the copyright originator did indeed meet the test of being time-limited. Congress could also make copyrights valid for 10,000 years and that would meet the test of being time-limted, unfortunately.

  16. What I think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Make it easy to maintain the copyright, such as saying "I am so-and-so and I'm renewing everything I have a copyright on." Add a nominal fee and contact information. Require this every few years, say 5 to 7.

    Also make it easy to release a copyright into the public domain before normal expiration.

    Hmm, sound like a big database. And searching. Google?

  17. Again, that's not the case by Moraelin · · Score: 0, Troll

    The _only_ people publishing stuff purely for recognition seem to be newbie programmers.

    Everyone else is paid for it, even if their work is then included in an OSS project. E.g., OpenOffice is paid for by Sun. So is NetBeans. E.g., Eclipse is mostly IBM's work. E.g., as I've said, check some of the submissions in your average Linux distro. Check out how many of them are paid employees of IBM, Novell, Sun, RedHat, etc.

    But let's get back to the actual ones that publish stuff actually written 100% unpaid for, and 100% for recognition. The problem is that invariably they're (1) _only_ the programmers, (2) never polish their work to any degree of usability, and (3) newbies.

    1. E.g., one problem most OSS software projects have is the utter lack of usability specialists, good graphics artists, technical writers, etc. Sure, you might find some newbie CS student publishing his newest Pac-Man clone for peer-recognition. You almost _never_ however find also some graphics artist involved to make the graphics, nor someone who could write a good manual, nor more than 1-2 simple levels for their games because good level designers never joined. (E.g., try Pingus someday. Great game engine, but it never got more than the tutorial levels.)

    And that also means that other domains would be practically non-existant, because they're not software hacks. E.g., good luck finding someone who'll come over and take professional photos at your wedding, just for fame and recognition. E.g., while every teen dreams of being a famous novelist, I can't remember any good novels that were just posted on the Internet for fame and recognition. E.g., good luck waiting for a good movie to be made purely for fame and recognition: those cost quite a bit to make, even if you don't go for overpaid stars, so everyone will want to recoup their investment one way or another.

    2. An invariable problem of projects made purely for fame and recognition, is the lack of polish. And I mean above and beyond the fact that they couldn't find a usability expert that wants to work for free.

    See, everyone wants to code great hacks or great algorithms for fame and recognition. "W00t, my clever BitFlipSort works 3 times faster" or "W00t, my clever use of B-trees makes the whole search faster" are things you can (A) brag about, and (B) get done in an afternoon. On the other hand, "I spent 2 months making a good usable GUI for it, and another month writing a good manual" is neither. It's just plain old work and no bragging rights. Not many will do it.

    3. They're invariably newbies, and the results are invariably of very limited scope, complexity and quality. Sad to say, I haven't found any professional project that was made purely for fame and glory.

    To put it otherwise, yeah, writing a monolythic 0.01 kernel is something a bored hacker might do just for fame and recognition. Turning it into an enterprise multi-platform OS, on the other hand, that involved a helluva lot of paid people.

    But even that 0.01 kernel is already something _way_ over the level of usual works made purely for fame and glory. Most of them are barely at the level of "hey, look, I too made a buggy Windows or X calculator."

    So to cut an already long story short, I really wouldn't fancy a future where everyone is done just for recognition. I very much prefer being able to go to the shop and buy a good program, than wait for a bored hacker to make a piss-poor approximation of it in his free time.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Again, that's not the case by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Insightful
      E.g., good luck finding someone who'll come over and take professional photos at your wedding, just for fame and recognition.

      Wedding photos would work fine without copyright. You pay the photographer to take some pictures, you get your photos. None of this "Photographer owns pictures of your event that he was *hired* to make" bullshit.

    2. Re:Again, that's not the case by jtev · · Score: 1

      HERE HERE! that is about the most retared abuse of copyright I'm aware of. Portraits are obviously a works for hire, and as such should belong to the PATRON, not to the artist.

      --
      That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
    3. Re:Again, that's not the case by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      FYI, that would work fine as a business model, but the bride and groom would pay more money than they pay now. A wedding photographer gets most of his profit from the copies sold to the people invited to the wedding. Usually it pays off, but sometimes it doesn't and you actually lose money on the wedding. A publicity or industrial photographer on the other hand, often gets all his money as a lump sum.

    4. Re:Again, that's not the case by ObitMan · · Score: 1

      try getting your negatives.

      Seriously
      If you ever get married or have been married and hired a professional Photog. try getting your negatives.

      It's not going to happen without coughing up some serious bux.

      --
      Who run Barter Town?
    5. Re:Again, that's not the case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Negatives?

      That is SO previous century!

  18. Public comment is a waste of time by russotto · · Score: 1

    Those opposing any changes have plenty of paid commenters to drown out comment from the rest of us. And even if they didn't, the copyright office doesn't have the authority to change the law; that's up to Congress, and you _know_ who owns them. Spend your effort elsewhere; commenting to the copyright office is about as productive as posting to Slashdot.

    1. Re:Public comment is a waste of time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, yes, let's not try at all. Brilliant. I'm glad Martin Luther King Jr. and other visionaries of the past didn't take that attitude.

      I'd rather make my comments heard just the same, thank you. At least that way if the system's shit, I'm not a party to making it that way.

    2. Re:Public comment is a waste of time by dreamword · · Score: 1

      You're wrong, and here's why.

      While it's true that there will be plenty of comments from copyright holders and their lawyers in this proceeding, it isn't true that "the rest of us" will be drowned out. The point of a Notice of Inquiry (the formal name for the proceeding the Copyright Office has undertaken) is to create a *record* which they can refer to in later rulemaking and in their report to Congressional leaders. In general, if and when rulemaking time comes around, they'll have to respond to every significant public comment.

      So if you have an experience that brings to the fore the problem with licensing orphan works, they'll have to at least weigh your situation if you comment. If you don't comment, they won't.

      As to the Copyright Office not making the law -- this proceeding was requested by Hatch and Leahy, chairmen of the Judiciary Committee (which is in charge of copyright law). This is Congress trying to figure out where the problems are so it can fix them. If you want your story before Congress, you must comment.

      And further, it's not completely clear that Congressional action would be required to fix the orphan work problem. While that would be the most obvious way, there may be ways to change Copyright Office regulations regarding registration to fix the problem -- no Congressional action needed.

      So, bottom line: this is not a waste of time. This is our best chance to put our facts before the decisionmakers. File your comments today.

    3. Re:Public comment is a waste of time by lamona · · Score: 1

      Not true. I have commented before to the Copyright Office, and once testified at a hearing they held. They DO pay attention to comments. Unfortunately, they don't look beyond the comments -- they tend to be a very literal bunch -- so if 50 big shot lawyers write comments for large firms, and only 5 individual citizens write comments, the Office concludes that it isn't of interest to the general public. They don't hear what we don't say.

      --
      I just read /. for the amusing .sigs
  19. Slashdot is a place to listen and learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people who post here don't all agree about everything.
    PAC's are for people who want to 'get theirs'.
    It seems to me that slashdot posters are a lot of people who are able to get their own without having to beg the government.

    PAC's are part of what is wrong with government.
    Selfish interests are in power in Washington. I wouldn't post here if I thought that there were lawyers or lobbiests getting money from it.

  20. The proper term of copyright. by shimmin · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Let's give the creator the benefit of the doubt and say that whatever they have created is of enduring value, and the copyright on their creation is worth a perpetuity of some annual income A.

    Then, the present value of the copyright is, and will remain, A/i, where i is the interest rate.

    Meanwhile, at time t, the present value of the copyright they have already held is A/i * (exp[it] - 1).

    So, at some time, it is fair to both the author and public to expire the copyright, because the present value of the copyright (that is being transferred from author to public) is equal to the present value of the copyright that the author has held in the past (that was given to the author by the public). This occurs when t = (ln 2)/i.

    Then, the proper term of copyright depends on the interest rate, thusly:

    2% 35 years
    3% 23 years
    4% 17 years
    5% 14 years
    6% 12 years
    7% 10 years
    8% 9 years
    1. Re:The proper term of copyright. by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      I don't think you really want to go there.

      Everyone in the copyright cartel would obviously claim the lowest possible income rate for their holdings, since it would give them the longest copyright term.

      Most would be lying, of course, and would be making a lot more money off their holdings than claimed. The only way that kind of fraud could be prevented is to have a government agency responsible for auditing the copyright holders' financial records, to make sure the profits claimed and the profits made on a work match up. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of works copyrighted each year, and you've got a lot of civil servant jobs to fill.

      Do you REALLY want to create another government bureaucracy on the scale of the Internal Revenue Service?

    2. Re:The proper term of copyright. by shimmin · · Score: 1

      Unnecessary, because the income rate cancels out of the accounting equation. If the copyright isn't earning much, then it's not worth much, and so the term a drops out. The only variable is the interest rate, and given the lengths of time we're talking about here, it is probably fair to set that to an average of what the prime lending rate has been over the last umpteen years.

    3. Re:The proper term of copyright. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Everyone in the copyright cartel would obviously claim the lowest possible income rate for their holdings, since it would give them the longest copyright term.

      Uh, you missed the point of the intellectual exercise... time was a function of interest rate, not of income rate. It's pretty frickin' easy to figure out what interest rates are... just look at the federal reserve's prime rate (the lowest interest rate in the country) and base it off that.

      --AC

  21. heh by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, I never said I want it to be unlimited or anything. So we can easily aggree upon that part.

    But on the issue of taxes:

    <sarcasm type="heavy">
    Yes, and _my_ taxes are used to protect your car from burglars and thieves. Hey, I don't own a car, so I shouldn't pay for it. Right?

    _My_ taxes are used for government AIDS cure research. Hey, I don't screw everyone in sight, so why the heck should I have to pay for that? Let them just die, I say ;)

    _My_ taxes are used to build highways. Maybe even the one you drive on to work. WTF? I always get a flat very near the company, so I don't have to commute. Why the heck should I pay for all those commuters? No, really.

    _My_ taxes go into funding the school system. Piss-poor and under-funded as it is. Or to give a tax break to people with kids. Blah. I have no kids. Why should I pay for that? No, really? Did anyone even ask me if I want to subsidize everyone who's too stupid to use a condom? And let them pay out of their own pocket for their kid's schooling.
    </sarcasm>

    Again, that was sarcasm, if anyone can't tell. I am _not_ really advocating any of that.

    I'm sure you probably get the idea already. Yes, society sometimes must use taxes to enforce things that are considered beneficial for society as a _whole_. Yes, there might be people who do not _directly_ get a ROI on their money, but the idea is that on the whole you get more good than bad out of it.

    In this case, the whole copyright thing actually costs you _very_ little. Other than the copyright office itself, most other things are handled by lawsuits between companies. Or between companies and individuals.

    You might notice, for example, that even the much villified RIAA lawsuits didn't involve the FBI taking the suspects into custody, nor a DA doing a criminal style prosecution. So that part has cost you exactly nothing.

    So, well, I hope you'll excuse me if you're not getting much compassion out of me, over the fact that a couple of cents out of your taxes (and mine) go into sponsoring the common good. I do believe that on the whole the benefits far outweight those few cents.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:heh by Alsee · · Score: 1

      the much villified RIAA lawsuits didn't involve the FBI

      Not yet, but there's a bill floating around congress to have the FBI take over the job of filing and prosecuting copyright infringment suits. The RIAA doesn't like the hassle and cost and bad PR of doing so themselves, and why should they when they can simply lobby congress to pass a law having the government do it for them?

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:heh by cloudmaster · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You can't get a flat in the US. Here, we have houses, apartments, condominums, etc - but no flats. Those are all in Europe, AFAIK. :)

    3. Re:heh by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      They rent and sell flats in San Francisco, at least -- don't know about anywhere else in the U.S.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    4. Re:heh by Darby · · Score: 1

      Before I moved into a Carriage House, I lived in a 3 flat. In Chicago.

      You need to get out more.

    5. Re:heh by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, society sometimes must use taxes to enforce things that are considered beneficial for society as a _whole_. Yes, there might be people who do not _directly_ get a ROI on their money, but the idea is that on the whole you get more good than bad out of it.

      Society is made up of people. Copyright is set at the life of the author + 75 years. Given that you have to be alive to copyright something (at least, as far as I'm aware) and that the average life expectance is sub-75 years, that means that anyone born at the time a copyrighted work is created will be dead prior to the copyrighted work being put into the public domain. Hence, there's a serious lacking in the claim it "benefits society" or is "limited times".

      One of the benefits of a copyrighted work, after all, is the time when it returns to the public domain. The whole "limited time" is there for the work to be created in the first place. The fact is, we're currently at the point that if we were to decide today to put all copyrighted works in the public domain, by law, while enacting in the same legislation that such a mass conversion won't occur again for a "limited time" (to make clear the risk reduction of one's copyright hence forth being nullified arbitrarily), we'd be in the possession of a ton of works and wouldn't be in some massive "need" for new works.

      Sure, new works would be great, and I'm sure they'd be made regardless. And I think that's the core issue. The foundation of the claim for the need for copyright is that without protection there would be few new works. Yet I'm very sure that if copyright were rescinded for all previous works and only allow for works past date X, we'd still see new works. Ie, even with massive amounts of "free" works out there, there'd still be people willing to dish out money for new works.

      One main reason is that, at least for software, there's a group of dedicated people who already have access and knowledge to the code and could make the proper updates. Reverse engineering the binary into source then updating it as necessary is a rather large financial investment. Because of this, it's not financially feasible for everyone to do the work. In fact, it's very much the prisoners' dilemma*. So, as long as the original software company has copyright long enough to recoup the costs by mass purchases by industry (and if you'll notice, NT 4.0 and OS/2 machines are being pushed towards Windows 2k/XP Embedded in those industries which are normally slowest to change), there's little reason to believe that any company or group of companies will work together to reverse engineer an already working product.

      Having said all that, I would have to state that there's clearly inefficiency to this whole model** anyways. At least for software, having every couple reinvent the wheel unnecessarily doesn't help things. Yes, it does mean less of a monoculture, but it's hard to disagree that a combination of cooperation and open forks tend towards the minimal amount of redundant work. And all work requires time. And time is money. So, the actual cost imposed upon everyone by copyright is much more than the direct taxation that government imposes.

      Is society gaining a net sum now days?

      *Linux, et al are the exception, if only because they were never proprietary in the first place and each company who wants to become involved for their own benefit only has to dedicate a small detachment to help tune the source to their own needs. Getting to the point of there being an actually working OS that's already out there (no company wants to just "give away" a *lot* of their hard work to the competition) is the rough hump.

      **The Free Market is based on a form of self interest with limited resources. The problem, of course, is that software is a mostly intangible good with nearly zero cost to redistribute. The real main cost then is the fixed cost of production. In a system where there was no copyright, surely there would be companies that release encrypted binarie

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    6. Re:heh by runderwo · · Score: 1

      You're purposely conflating the idea of my paying taxes for something that is useless to me, and my paying taxes for something that contradicts my interests. All of those things that you mentioned, while useless, do not contradict my interests; they are simply a waste of money from my perspective. What I object to is being taxed to fund government action that I believe is wrong and which directly affects me in a negative fashion. Arbitrary copyright is one example. The war on drugs is yet another prominent example.

    7. Re:heh by cloudmaster · · Score: 1

      I understand that a flat is just an apartment on one floor of a building, and that those certainly exist over here. My post was noting that those things are usually called either "apartments" or "duplexes" in the USA, not "flats".

      Pretend that I said "we don't have lifts in multi-floor buildings and our cars don't have boots or bonnets", and see if that helps you comprehend.

    8. Re:heh by cloudmaster · · Score: 1

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=142410&cid=120 12641

  22. Disney Effect - Ex Post Facto? by krysith · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered why the Constitution's prohibition on ex post facto laws didn't keep Congress from extending the term of already existing copyrights. Can anyone explain to me why it doesn't? I understand that Congress has the power to grant copyrights of any limited duration, as per the recent Supreme Court judgement, but do they Constitutionally have the power to change the duration of an already granted copyright? It seems to me that if they have the power to extend the duration of an already granted copyright, then they also have the power to reduce it. As unlikely as it seems that they would do such a thing, if they did so it would seem to clearly be an ex post facto law - so why is an ex post facto law reducing the duration prohibited but one extending it is not? I am not a lawyer but I figure someone must have challenged one of the extensions on this basis at some point.

    1. Re:Disney Effect - Ex Post Facto? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The problem right now is that all three branches of the U.S. Government now effectively ignore that provision of the constitution. Sad as that may be.

      There is still "lip service" to the idea of ex post facto laws, but with taxation that is retroactive, and rectroactive enforcement of anti-terrorism laws, you can point out that the constitution in this regard is a meaningless scrap of paper.

      Part of the Eldridge vs. Ascroft case was being argued exactly on these grounds, that there were many copyrighted works (like "Steamboat Willy" by Disney) that would be in public domain right now if it weren't for this retroactive enforcement of copyright laws. The dissenting opinions on the case mentioned this exactly as the basis for denying copyright extensions... as well as the issue of having effectively a permanent copyright, which is specifically denied in the text of the constutition.

      That the majority of SCOTUS didn't agree with this concept shows how little they seem to actually read the document they proport to defend.

  23. My input to orphanworks by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

    No, there should be no concern about copyrights being held by difficult or impossible to find owners, as in, for example, cannot find a contact to get permission to reprint.

    Just require documented efforts to contact owner before publishing or using the copyrighted works, require publishing with original copyright notice, and if the owner surfaces and wants money, have an arbitration of percentage of profits to be awarded to owner.

    No transfer of copyright, no legal mumbo jumbo, no providing loopholes in the copyright system. There's nothing here except lawyers looking to game the system.

    rd

    1. Re:My input to orphanworks by zotz · · Score: 1

      "Just require documented efforts to contact owner before publishing or using the copyrighted works, require publishing with original copyright notice, and if the owner surfaces and wants money, have an arbitration of percentage of profits to be awarded to owner."

      How about just advertise intent to publish in some federal register (set up for the purpose?) and if no objections are published by the copyright owner, go for it. Then if they surface, your plan takes over. Person putting in intent to publish would have to pay for copyright owner's reasonable costs to respond if any.

      all the best,

      drew

      p.s. Actually, I think it might be better if such works fell into a copyleft state, but any improvements would be welcome.

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    2. Re:My input to orphanworks by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      How about just advertise intent to publish in some federal register (set up for the purpose?)

      yes, that would be the perfect way to publically document attempting to contact owner. Good idea.

      The main thing I want to see is original copyright left on and then go into public domain. Any new copyrights on already copyrighted material is against the interest of the public, as I think your posts point out.

      rd

    3. Re:My input to orphanworks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The main thing I want to see is original copyright left on and then go into public domain. Any new copyrights on already copyrighted material is against the interest of the public, as I think your posts point out."

      Can you comment on my p.s. wrt having the original copyright converted to a copyleft with commercial rights for derivatives for the duration fo the term and then into the public domain?

      all the best,

      drew

  24. Reserve copyrights to individuals only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why allow corporations to own your ideas in the first place? IP should resolve corporate NDAism, not perpetuate it.

  25. Original Sources - US Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.htm l

    USA Constition

    Section 8. Clause 8:

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    1. Re:Original Sources - US Constitution by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      How do you define "limited"?

    2. Re:Original Sources - US Constitution by mike2R · · Score: 1

      Since Eldred, it is defined solely at the discretion of congress.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    3. Re:Original Sources - US Constitution by indifferent+children · · Score: 1

      The real question is: have the current American copyright laws passed the 'tipping point' where they a hindering "the Progress of Science and useful Arts"? I believe that this is the case for patent laws, but I am not sure about copyright laws.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    4. Re:Original Sources - US Constitution by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Did you know that you have to spend ten thousand dollars to use the song "Happy Birthday" in a movie?

      --
      It's been a long time.
    5. Re:Original Sources - US Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll notice that it says "to Authors and Inventors". It does not say "to Authors and Inventors, and their descendants, or companies for whom they work". If the clause were interpreted correctly, copyrights/patents would stay with their authors/inventors, would not be transferable to third parties, and would expire when they die.

  26. My solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about maintaining a current (2 year expiration if you are unreachable) contact information/address with the copyright office instead?

    But will this now means the copyright office will have to have a copy of every work ever written from now on? Or maybe just a title and a "originally published with XYZ address under ABC name" should be recorded at the office.

    If you reappear, any people that utilized your copyrighted work can continue to do so (don't know how practical this is .. maybe a "you snooze, you lose" approach is better .. actually i would prefer that).

    There should be a process for notifying the copyright office that you intend to use an orphan work (simple email containing the work should suffice IMHO)

  27. Copyright Registry by Roger_Wilco · · Score: 1

    I just sent the following comment:

    I strongly support the concept of having works for which the copyright holder cannot be identified fall into the public domain.

    It has been suggested that there should be a registry of copyrighted works, along with contact information for the holder. This "orphan works" proposal would permit the free market to form such a registry. Copyright holders would want themselves to be identifiable to retain their copyright, so being registered, by a "copyright registrar" would ensure this identifiability. The system could be similar to that used currently for Internet domain names.

    1. Re:Copyright Registry by zotz · · Score: 1

      "I strongly support the concept of having works for which the copyright holder cannot be identified fall into the public domain."

      Would it not be better if they fell into some copyleft state that permitted commercial use? Think about the possibilities.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
  28. Just remember "It's a wonderful life" and "jpg". by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    It will remain an orphan until it becomes popular and widely used and then someone will turn up wanting money for something that was only popular because it was free. They should have to pay a fee to the orphan organization for popularizing their work if they do this.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  29. My idea by r6144 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    If you don't make your work public, other people can't see it whether or not it is copyrighted. If you do, I don't think copyright should help you keep your privacy --- once it is public, it is public forever.

    Also, I think if the work is unavailable to someone at a reasonable price and with reasonable terms (no overly bad EULA or DRM stuff), they should be allowed to copy them (e.g. via ftp or P2P networks) as long as the unavailability persists, at least if no profit is derived. It is not strictly necessary to put the work into the public domain as soon as the work becomes unavailable. We can allow the publisher to resume their exclusive right as soon as they publish the work again; in this way copyright won't be accidentally lost forever if the publisher's employees had a one-week strike, and we also have a solution when some work is available to only part of the population (for example, region-coded DVDs).

    1. Re:My idea by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Some years ago I asked the Copyright Office about this very thing. That is, whether something could be copyrighted if it was not published. They told me flat out that the object of copyright was to protect PUBLISHED works (that is, made available to the public one way or another), and therefore something that was not published could not be copyrighted.

      ISTM that by direct extension, something that is not available to the public loses its copyright protection, by the very definition of what copyright is supposed to be.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    2. Re:My idea by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      Well, that or there could be a reasonable period of unavailability before it's considered abbandoned and a therefore public domain. For example, if you can't buy something for 1-2 years, I'd say it's safe to consider it ok-to-copy.

      Honestly, if your workers were on strike for 1-2 years, I'd think you have bigger problems than people copying your book :P

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    3. Re:My idea by zotz · · Score: 1

      "They told me flat out that the object of copyright was to protect PUBLISHED works (that is, made available to the public one way or another), and therefore something that was not published could not be copyrighted."

      While I think that was true at one time, I think things have changed. How long ago did you ask? Care to ask again? (And let us know the answer?)

      BTW, I have appreciated the discussions.

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    4. Re:My idea by Reziac · · Score: 1

      That was in 1976ish. So before the present spasm of corpyright-- er, copyright foreverness.

      But it would indeed be interesting to ask them the exact same question, and compare the answers. I'm sure I must still have the originals Around Here Someplace....

      Enjoyed meeting you too, talk to ya again someday!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  30. Oracle does it by mangu · · Score: 2, Informative
    Are there many real-world examples of corporations saying things like, "Well, we can't be bothered to print up another hundred copies of that textbook just so your students can buy it.


    I don't know about textbooks, but I do have a real-world example in software. I tried to buy a copy of Oracle's Pro*Fortran and they wouldn't sell it to me, because it's "deprecated". I also tried to buy a copy of the game "Sorcerers Get All the Girls" from the original publisher and they refused to sell it to me. Fortunately, in this case I got a decent warez, but if you ever wrote any program in Fortran to access an Oracle data base, and now want to support it, Oracle's official answer to your problem is "Fuck You".

  31. Berne Convention by hacksoncode · · Score: 3, Informative
    RTFA

    The whole reason that copyrights no longer have to be registered in the US is the Berne convention, which requires that signatory countries may not impose registration requirements on foreign nationals in order to obtain copyright protection.

    Since there's no way to acertain without finding the copyright holder whether that person is a foreign national or not, even if we required registration of copyrighted works as a way to get around this, it still would violate the treaty.

    About the only solution would be one similar to that cited in Candadian law, where the Copyright Office can determine that a work is orphaned, set a compulsary license fee, and collect it in case the author is ever found. They've granted a whole 125 of these licenses to date.

    Which doesn't really solve the problem at all...

    1. Re:Berne Convention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we propose a change to all international conventions as relate to copyright.

      1. All works not marked as copyright shall be automatically copyrighted under a copyleft license that allows for commercial uses.

      Something like CC BY-SA (can leave off the BY) and GPL for code.

      2. Orphaned works. If you want to make use of a work and cannot contact the listed copyright holder, publish an "intent to publish" notice in a UN register set up for the purpose and, if the copyright holder does not contact you or publish their contact details in the same register, proceed. A compulsary license is then issued by the UN and license fees paid to the UN or to a national body at the choice of the re-publisher.

      3. ???

      4. Profit

      Sorry, couldn't esist that last part.

      Any refinement needed to make an idea like this work if implemented?

      all the best,

      drew (zotz)

  32. you've got Eldred by frankie · · Score: 1

    I think the Public Domain Expansion Act is almost what you're looking for. It doesn't go quite as far as your suggestion, but it's easier to implement and more likely to become law (odds 10e-6 instead of 10e-100).

  33. And about OSS and the small guy? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    Can't it be used to screw up GPL'ed projects and small companies, who can't stand to defend a copyrighted work at justice and look for piracy of their work?

  34. Charities and PACs by tepples · · Score: 1

    Besides, isn't there a FSF and EFF for this kind of thing?

    Free Software Foundation and Electronic Frontier Foundation are charities. U.S. tax law bars charities from giving nearly the same kind of support to a political party or candidate that a PAC can. For this reason, many advocacy organizations have split into two entities, a PAC and an affiliatied charity that work together. Examples include AARP (a pro-senior-citizen-rights PAC) vs. AARP Foundation (its charity) and NORML (a pro-cannabis-decriminalization PAC) vs. NORML Foundation (its charity). The charity handles everything that tax-exempt organizations may handle, such as educating the public about the issues; the PAC handles the associated political action.

  35. The joke's on the copyright owner by tepples · · Score: 1

    You say that as though they have some obligation to make it easy, or even possible, for you. They don't.

    Copyright owners have no direct legal obligation to make their works available (other than a vague, lately unenforceable constitutional promise that copyright law must "promote the Progress of Science"), but they have a moral obligation to do so, or the community will trounce their asses through the use of a tool called the fair use parody. There are ways to tell the public which copyright holders are acting like dicks about their works.

    1. Re:The joke's on the copyright owner by grolschie · · Score: 1

      they have a moral obligation to do so

      Interesting concept. According to who's morals? Why are your morals more correct than someone else's (in this case, the copyright owner)? Or is there some definitive benchmark standard that tells us what it right or wrong?

    2. Re:The joke's on the copyright owner by tepples · · Score: 1

      Or is there some definitive benchmark standard that tells us what it right or wrong?

      Here, "moral" refers to the originally intended interpretation of the Constitution, in the context in which it was framed. Do you think the founding fathers would have approved of a life+70 copyright term or of works being unavailable for licensing at any price? How does that "promote the Progress of Science"?

    3. Re:The joke's on the copyright owner by grolschie · · Score: 1

      Here, "moral" refers to the originally intended interpretation of the Constitution, in the context in which it was framed

      I guess thats left to the legal system to interpret. Anyways, how does a novel, game, song, painting, bitmap, etc, "promote the Progress of Science"? These are covered by copyright.

      Do you think the founding fathers would have approved of a life+70 copyright term or of works being unavailable for licensing at any price?

      Yup. For sure. If I paint a picture, I expect to sell as little or many prints of it, when I like and for what I like. If I want to copyright something, and let no-one have a copy at all, then it's my business - it's my property and I don't have to let anyone have it if I don't want to. That's the nature of ownership, one can be selfish. No-one has rights automatically to anothers property. One copyrights one's works to protect his own rights, not other people's. The same goes for anything else one owns e.g. house, land, etc. Some things are just not for sale at any price.

  36. Bono Act isn't Berne; DMCA isn't Berne by tepples · · Score: 1

    The whole reason that copyrights no longer have to be registered in the US is the Berne convention, which requires that signatory countries may not impose registration requirements on foreign nationals in order to obtain copyright protection.

    U.S. copyright law already requires registration before the act of infringement in order for a prevailing copyright owner to collect statutory damages. It can do this because (as I understand it) the Berne Convention does not require party states to provide for statutory damages. This seems to suggest a solution: make any aspects of the copyright monopoly beyond Berne, such as term extensions, circumvention bans, and criminal penalties, require an up-to-date registration of copyright.

  37. this reminds me why i hate the democrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They will fight tooth and nail to protect the intellectial property rights of giant corperatiions...note these rights are explicitly limited in the constitution and will fight tooth and nail to take real property rights away from individual land owners and these rights are explictly expressed in the constitution.

  38. "Science and useful Arts" is backwards in a way by tepples · · Score: 1

    Anyways, how does a novel, game, song, painting, bitmap, etc, "promote the Progress of Science"? These are covered by copyright.

    In 1780s English, "Science" and "useful Arts" meant "knowledge" and "technology" respectively. Yes, I know it's backwards from the naive interpretation of somebody who has been exposed only to >=1960s English.

    If I want to copyright something, and let no-one have a copy at all, then it's my business - it's my property and I don't have to let anyone have it if I don't want to.

    I understand the difference between an unpublished work and a published work, but why should a published work that was once widely reproduced and distributed in lawful copies be forced out of print on a whim?

    One copyrights one's works to protect his own rights, not other people's.

    Despite the name, copyright is not a right; it's a privilege granted by Congress.

    The same goes for anything else one owns e.g. house, land, etc. Some things are just not for sale at any price.

    Two words: Eminent domain. Besides, law philosophers have found the exclusive right to occupy real estate much closer to natural law than the exclusive right to reproduce an expression.

    1. Re:"Science and useful Arts" is backwards in a way by grolschie · · Score: 1

      understand the difference between an unpublished work and a published work, but why should a published work that was once widely reproduced and distributed in lawful copies be forced out of print on a whim?

      Because that's the right that the law provides the copyright owner - to give permission (or not) as he sees fit. There are plenty of other fields, not just copyright, where the owner manipulates/regulates supply and price to maximize profit. Strategically cutting the supply altogether may just increase the price of the existing stock. It's economics 101. Less supply at a higher price, or greater turnover at lower price. The latter is better for Joe Sixpack, but not for him to dictate. I guess there is a fine line when a monopoly is involved and everyone is dependant on the supply, but hey we are taking about books, movies and music, etc.

      Peace,
      grol

  39. How about computer software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This issue is IMHO also relevant to computer software. Use of emulators on current computer hardware allows the exact recreation of an archaic computer system's operating environment. The software that was used with said archaic computer systems was copyrighted by companies that sometimes have been "belly-up" for decades.

    People who used those computers, or those that take an interest in old computer systems (for instance the 1979 Atari 800) can by using an emulator run software that was released 25 years ago. It's hard to track down the copyright owners to clear the use of this software today (since most of the time the software has been disposed of along with the computer).

  40. Orphans by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    Orphan? It's powered by a forsaken child?

  41. Re:What value do publishers add? by dallaylaen · · Score: 1

    In the modern world, with the cost of copying and disseminating a digital work approaching zero, what value do publishers actually add?

    I have found out that:

    1. Linux from Mandrake is far better than the one from Stallman and Linus (fine tuned, more tools, and those nice disks instead of zillion URLs half of which works).

    2. A well printed book is better than one from http://www.lib.ru/, it's nicer, it saves my eyes, and it's just a pleasure to hold it in hands. Oh yeah, and a good book contains little mistakes -- a good editor is expencive to hire!

    3. When it comes to music... well... the publisher should probably just sort awailable works. So yeah, when it comes to music you're right -- and don't forget that live shows should be attended, or the musicians die from starvation.

    4. Pictures... hm. Let's say a gallery is a publisher, it can keep the pictures from occasional damage for ages! And visiting a real gallery is better than viewing some pictures online.

    So, I think that the value publisher adds is proven and I can got back to work :)

    --
    WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
  42. A chilling effect by tepples · · Score: 1

    Because that's the right that the law provides the copyright owner - to give permission (or not) as he sees fit.

    Be careful about circular reasoning here, as this article is about research into whether there is a need to change the law. Part of the issue at hand is to what extent the copyright owner should be allowed to make that choice, whether such a choice "promote[s] the Progress of Science".

    I guess there is a fine line when a monopoly is involved and everyone is dependant on the supply, but hey we are taking about books, movies and music, etc.

    You seem to claim that copyrighted works either are not necessities or are not a monopoly. As for necessity, some form of entertainment is a necessity to preserve sanity. As for monopoly, music is in fact a cartel because of ubiquitous access to published works and the small space of distinct works. When you hear a song on the radio or in a grocery store, you are permanently barred from writing a similar song. There exist only a finite number of distinct melodies in the western musical scale. Therefore, any independent songwriter will likely unwittingly violate a copyright. Does a chilling effect on creating works "promote the Progress of Science"?

    1. Re:A chilling effect by grolschie · · Score: 1

      You seem to claim that copyrighted works either are not necessities or are not a monopoly. As for necessity, some form of entertainment is a necessity to preserve sanity.

      How about conversation, outtings, sport, etc? :-)

      Thanks for the George Harrison link. I can relate to that. It sucks when you make something up, then realize that you didn't. :-)

    2. Re:A chilling effect by tepples · · Score: 1

      How about conversation

      About what? Other than TV, movies, music, and books, what do Americans have to talk about?

      outtings

      I may misunderstand what you mean by "outing", but I'd guess that not enough people have the skill to distinguish an LGBT from a straight person to the point where one can, say, entertain co-workers by pointing out the LGBT of the Week.

      sport

      This copyrighted telecast may not be reproduced, retransmitted, or rebroadcast without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.

    3. Re:A chilling effect by grolschie · · Score: 1

      About what? Other than TV, movies, music, and books, what do Americans have to talk about?

      LOL

      I may misunderstand what you mean by "outing", but I'd guess that not enough people have the skill to distinguish an LGBT from a straight person to the point where one can, say, entertain co-workers by pointing out the LGBT of the Week.

      By "outings", I meant: "An excursion, typically a pleasure trip. A walk outdoors". As in, a change of scenery brought about by the movement of your feet. No sexual innuendo intended.

      This copyrighted telecast may not be reproduced, retransmitted, or rebroadcast without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.

      I guess one can always play a game of baseball, tennis, hopscotch, etc, without breaching copyright. It might require exertion of energy though. :-)

    4. Re:A chilling effect by tepples · · Score: 1

      By "outings", I meant: "An excursion, typically a pleasure trip. A walk outdoors".

      Oh, you meant something closer to this. Now I get it.

      I guess one can always play a game of baseball, tennis, hopscotch, etc, without breaching copyright.

      In non-summer weather? Indoor tennis courts cost a lot of money to rent, and exclusive rights to land are the only exclusive right that is more sacred than copyright to a copyright advocate. Modern electronic hopscotch games are copyrighted, but I'm glad that at least one is permissively licensed.

  43. At least reply to MY post... by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    "It is relative. Which invention do you think was more important? The automobile or the wheel and axle?"

    I didn't mention importance, precisely because it's highly subjective*. I was talking about the RATE of new inventions, the only available objective metric, which is undeniably higher now than at any other time in history.

    "The fact that knowledge is incremental by nature means that the later inventions will tend to be more spectacular by accretion of previously known things."

    Again, I didn't mention spectacle value, just the rate. And again, the fact that the incremental nature of knowledge (and it's practical application) is healthier than at any other time in history suggests that the existing system isn't all that bad; at least, not bad enough to require some major paradigm shift (or should that be "cultural revolution"?).

    "Anyway I think copyright is ok, given reasonable terms."

    Trying to soften me up, you silver tongued devil? ;)

    "Patents on the other hand can be quite bad, since they prevent someone from selling something they created, just because someone else had the idea first and you didn't know about it. It is totally stupid."

    Actually the example you cite demonstrates ignorance of existing products and a lack of research, which IS stupid (why go to the touble of "inventing" something if someone is already selling them 3 for 50 cents? That simply isn't clever). So discounting ignorance and stupidity (which I think don't deserve legal protection, but rather should be punishable by death), I really can't see anything wrong with the basic principle of patents.

    But in practice I agree: I think patents should be much more closely scrutinized, that electronic analogs of long established meatspace activities (like Amazon's online shopping patents) should not be allowed, and any software patents that are allowed should have a very limited life reflecting the dynamic nature of computing. And definitely, any patent which is no longer used by it's creator or licensees should automatically expire (say, six months after termination of production or contract rather than a fixed duration). Sleeper patents and IP squatting should be illegal, and I think there should be heavy fines imposed for anyone who aquires a patent solely for the purpose of preventing others using the IP or fails to directly contribute in any substantial way to the development of the technology (I'm looking at you, Darl).

    IMO the call to abolish patents (and copyright) is a simplistic, extremist over-reaction to failures in the procedure rather than a rational examination of the underlying philosphy; simple solutions never work for complex situations with more than one point of view.

    *I personally consider the automobile more important, since current society is impossible without modern distribution methods. Besides, the wheel is simply the traditional shape; if the ball bearing was invented first, we might have cars that can move in any direction, no wheels, no axles. Society could still exist as is, except parking would be way easier! You see, invention is about lateral thinking...

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.