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Understanding (and Avoiding) Software Patents?

An anonymous reader asks: "I'd like to write some Free backup software, but this area is mined with patents. I downloaded one and tried to understand it, but the 'claims' section (arguably the most important part) is made up of utterly incomprehensible patentese, and I can't afford to hire a patent attorney to help me understand it. Are there any free or cheap ways to learn enough about patents to understand them, so I can figure out exactly what is patented and therefore avoid it?" "How different does my software have to be in order to be non-infringing? The patent I tried to understand is Dantz's 5,150,473. Many, including Slashdot readers, have said what this patent covers, but from reading the patent itself, I would never have guessed. Also, there are lots of other patents to understand and avoid, so I'm looking for general information on how I can unravel it all into language I can understand."

18 of 72 comments (clear)

  1. understanding doesn't help. by gl4ss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    you can't know if there has been some patents applied that haven't been published yet.

    it's impossible for you to learn of all the patents that you might have to deal with.

    the solution? just write the fsckin software, if someone complains then take it out.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:understanding doesn't help. by ottothecow · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Parent is right.

      A lone person simply cannot handle this task so you are better off just writing it and then if anybody comes after you (and you are actually infringing...not just being chased away), you either fold or find another solution such as letting the EFF or somebody use your situation as a poster child for patent reform.

      --
      Bottles.
    2. Re:understanding doesn't help. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A lawyer who would probably not want to be identified with the large patent-holder (and lawsuit target) for which he works recommended that programmers *not* read patents. The implication was that "ignorance of the law" mitigated damages.

      Why not "read and avoid?" The lawyer didn't say, but I'd guess that it's hopeless. I was once named as a "co-inventor" and yet couldn't recognize the invention in the patent write-up which came back from the lawyers.

    3. Re:understanding doesn't help. by SagSaw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you can't know if there has been some patents applied that haven't been published yet.

      Actually, I think a good improvement for the patent system would go like this:

      1. Every patent application is kept secret for a certain period of time (the same time for every patent in a particular field).

      2. At the end of that period, the patent is either issued or rejected.

      3. If someone else invents the same thing within the secrecy period, it is evidance that the subject of the patent application is obvious to somebody skilled in the art.

      The downside of this, of course, is that if you attempt to sell your invention or incorporate it in a product prior to the expiration of the secrecy period, somebody else could copy it and invalidate your patent.

      --
      Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
  2. Nobody's going to sue you by Neil+Blender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you aren't making money.

    1. Re:Nobody's going to sue you by miu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They might sue you if they believe that you are preventing *them* from making money though.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    2. Re:Nobody's going to sue you by miu · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The thing is that patents don't suck, really - can you think of a better way to make raw research pay off than to award the inventor a limited time monopoly on the results? Any other system would simply make inventors bear the cost of research and then a producer could swoop in for the profit. The thing that sucks is the awarding of software patents for a ridiculous length of time and for trivial non-inventions.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    3. Re:Nobody's going to sue you by Crayon+Kid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is that patents don't suck[...] Any other system would simply make inventors bear the cost of research and then a producer could swoop in for the profit.

      I've heard this argument before, but it doesn't sit well with me. How can someone come and just "swoop in for the profit"? What do you think software development is? It's not like taking someone else's photo collection and just using it.

      Even if I got access (legally!) to the complete source code for any successful commercial software product out there, I couldn't just cash in on it. I'd still have some investing of my own to do. I'd have to pay programmers to make a viable product out of it, I'd have to handle distribution and support. Even so, it would be just a clone. If I wanted to get the edge on it I'd have to invest some creativity and implement some additional features at the very least. Not to mention preventing the product from becoming obsolete, which could mean anything from adding new features periodically to catching up with other technologies (either hardware or software).

      Add copyright to the equation and enforce it, and it means I cannot use the code verbatim anymore, even if I know all the great ideas and have the previous code layed out for me. I have to get programmers to reimplement it.

      So "cashing in" on somebody's else's work is not so easy as it seems, not in software world. Copyright IMO is the best compromise between allowing freedom of inovation and protection of rights. Patents take this to a whole new level of complication, with emphasis not on "protect the original author" but on "award someone a monopoly on (often) arbitrary basis".

      --
      i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
    4. Re:Nobody's going to sue you by miu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was talking more specifically about patents on physical inventions, but I can imagine software constructs that would qualify as an actual invention. No amount of copyright will protect a physical or software device once it released to a public audience, and that is the point at which a "producer" (eg MS, IBM) could swoop in and take the market from the inventor.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
  3. Don't go looking for trouble by rossifer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perversely, it's not a very good idea to actually do a patent search before lunging into your neat new idea. Should you actually find evidence that your invention was close to patented technology and that fact comes out in court, you will be accused of violating the patent deliberately.

    If you never looked, on the other hand, you just didn't know about it and may have violated someone's patent as a result.

    Further, you'll only be subject to serious trouble on the patent front if you're wildly successful (i.e. harming the patent holder's market share). In that case, there ought to be enough interested parties with money to actually handle the challenge.

    I am not a lawyer, but I've talked to a few on this exact subject with the exact same question.

    Regards,
    Ross

  4. Treble damages by danpat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In addition to there simply being too much to read, in the US, if it can be shown that you knowingly infringed a patent, the amount of damages you can be liable for is trebled (x3).

    You're much safer in your ignorance.

  5. Um what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just write the damn thing, I don't see what's wrong with it being patented

  6. Translation of Patents into English by seanellis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The way I have attacked this in the past is to go through it sentence by sentence and translate it back into English, keeping a glossary of things which seem to make sense in context.

    From your example: "The archive format includes the transfer of data to an archive media member, which archive media member can alternatively be addressable or sequential memory and can be recordable in either a rewriteable or right [sic] once manner."

    Glossary: Archive media member - a tape or disk. (This is backed up by the fact that these may be sequential or "addressable" (i.e. random access)).

    So, in other words, "The archives are stored on tapes or disks, which may be rewritable or write-once."

    This is, of course, a tedious and laborious process. (Just imagine, however, being a patent lawyer and having to actually write this stuff for a living.)

    Note well that, if the CIID passes, us software developers in Europe are going to have to learn to do this much more often. Here's an obligatory link to the FFII for the benefit of anyone who's been on Mars for the last 6 months.

    OK, here's an idea. How about an open directory of patent translations?

    Once you've translated a patent into English, you would upload it to the directory for others to use. They would be available under something like a creative commons license, with a feedback/rating system, standard disclaimers that original legalese has priority over the translation (of course), and that translations are supplied for convenience only.

    The web interface could optionally display the original and the translation side-by-side, aligned by paragraphs, so you can easily cross-check. There should be a simple way to post/suggest corrections.

    NOTE: This posting consitutes prior art on this concept. You may not patent it!

    ASIDE: The method described for translation is basically the same as that described by Richard Feynman for dealing with obtuse english. Here's a quote:

    "There was a sociologist who had written a paper for us all to read - something he had written ahead of time. I started to read the damn thing, and my eyes were coming out: I couldn't make head nor tail or it! I figured it was because I hadn't read any of the books on that list. I had this uneasy feeling of "I'm not adequate," until I finally said to myself, "I'm gonna stop, and read one sentence slowly, so I can figure out what the hell it means.

    So I stopped - at random - and read the next sentence very carefully. I can't remember it precisely, but it was very close to this: "The invidivual member of the social community often received his information via visual, symbolic channels." I went back and forth over it, and translated. You know what it means? "People Read."


    (From "Is Electricity Fire?" in "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman".)

  7. If you are concerned about software patents... by mellon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...work to get rid of them. Seriously. There is absolutely nothing you can do to protect yourself from software patents, other than this.

  8. You got some bad legal advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    > If you never looked, on the other hand, you just didn't know about it and may have violated someone's patent as a result.

    IAAL and I can tell you that in tort law, ignorance is not a viable defense. This is basic tort law and any lawyer who passed bar should know this.

    1. Re:You got some bad legal advice by Znork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It isnt ignorance of the law, it's ignorance of the patent. And it isnt a defense, it's avoiding possible willful infringement damages.

      > IAAL

      Yeah, well, when even lawyers have trouble understanding the ins and outs of patent law, maybe it's time to do something serious about it, eh?

  9. Too much scope... by Spoing · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It's not possible to know where and how you might be in violation of an unknown patent. The best you can do is dodge the obvious patent violations or as others have said don't go looking for trouble.

    Besides, if you spend all your time looking for a patent you mighg be violating, you'll not get any coding done.

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  10. I have worked on a software patent in the past by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Now before you take me outside and give me a good (and possibly deserved) kicking this was for a fairly involved process, and not for something blatantly obvious and oft-used (isnot anybody?)

    Despite writing large chunks of the text after the legal department had their way with it I can't tell you what it does.

    Not out of fear, or nondisclosure or other legal hurdles - it's just but I don't understand a damn word of it!

    What do these legal teams smoke in their breaks?