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Summer Reading and Startup Program
putko writes "Paul Graham, lisp hacker and creator of the company that became Yahoo! Store has an essay on what to do while in college. Previously, he's covered what high school students should do. He's also begun a summer startup program, which invites people with good ideas to try out for some startup capital. The deadline is March 26th." From the page: "We're going to call this project the Summer Founders Program, and it preserves many of the features of a conventional summer job. You have to move here (Cambridge) for the summer, as with a regular summer job. We give you enough money to live on for a summer, as with a regular summer job. You get to work on real problems, as you would in a good summer job. But instead of working for an existing company, you'll be working for your own; instead showing up at some office building at 9 AM, you can work when and where you like; and instead of salary, the money you get will be seed funding."
Search for "beer" in document:
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Me? I'm an old cuss working in a small shop, converting legacy stuff with new tools. I'll save them a bundle. I may release some of my code open source, just so others can benefit. There's so many needs around me, it's more than I can keep up with. Occasionally I come across something that'd be great beyond these four walls. If only I could take a break and expand upon it...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
eBay already capitalized off my idea!
/.
rm -rf
On the application form you need to supply your name, e-mail address, and -- you bet -- slashdot id.
i advice you to enjoy yourself in the first place! It's tha best years, and they'll pass fast, so enjoy life should be rule 1 for every student. To hell with work etc - you'll have plenty in a future if you'll still be alive!
The Summers Program ounds like a wonderful opportunity to me. Anyone with an ingenious nature should will give their right arm to get into this one. This is what young fledgling entrepreneurs need - an environment where they can explore their ideas, make mistakes, learn from others, and maybe produce a protoype of their invention/ideas. Damn, I wished I was back in college again - so many opportunities - so little time...
...I would not want to do this.
Why? When I'm in college, there are two things I wish to do:
1. Educate myself. Not for the sake of getting a job, but for actual education.
2. Relax. Because it'll be the last chance I get before I become a wage slave.
Why should I start working a 'real' job early? I'd rather flip burgers through college. No, I'm not monied, far from it. But I really don't want to 'grow up' early. I'd rather work menial, temp jobs to pay my way through, rather than do this 'summer program' and get seed funding for a future venture. Why? Because that would involve an immediate transition from student to wage slave. And I don't wish to go through that transition too early.
One of the few not-very-detailed reasons he gives is that a hello world program written in java is longer than a hello world program in python. He calls the entire language "hype" and has repeatedly taken stabs at java, and derides it without explicitly calling it "bad" (although he has dropped enough hints in his essays that we *know* his opinion about it). It seems that if it ain't an interpreted language, it ain't any good.
What's his deal?
I didn't read the full article, but from a quick glance I'd love to participate in a program like this. Too bad I live in Oklahoma.
It's spring break right now over here and I'm the typical freshman college student still trying to figure out what the hell I wanna do with my life. Gas prices are at killer levels right now, and most of my friends had already left for various locations for vacation; so I spent most of spring break in the house.
I spent all of spring break pondering the 3x+1 problem (do a search of www.mathforge.net on it) and I think I've found what I want to do. Yes, I'm not all that clever (122 on an IQ test online and a 26 on the ACT; that and the highest math I've taken up to this semster is Trig) but simply working on such problems and forcing your mind to *think* - rather than being taught in school the proper 'rules' of math; is something I've never really done. (Also read up on Feynman and what he had to say about things like that.) I didn't bother reading all the background information on it either (since, well, to be honest, I didn't get all the fancy explanations that I've read online) but working on such problems is a feeling I've not experienced since I was very young. Somewhere in the process of being forced to grow up I lost that.
This is awesome that this program is rewarding folks for *thinking* and *working* rather than just being able to read a book and take a test. Three cheers for this. I really love the last line of the article as well:
"So the best thing you can do in college, whether you want to get into grad school or just be good at hacking, is figure out what you truly like. It's hard to trick professors into letting you into grad school, and impossible to trick problems into letting you solve them. College is where faking stops working. From this point, unless you want to go work for a big company, which is like reverting to high school, the only way forward is through doing what you love."
Try not to let life get in the way of living.
He's correct almost everything except the part about taking mathematics in college. If anyone is considering a degree in CS, be prepared to be inundated with courses involving Math. When he says "I don't think you need much more than high school math plus a few concepts from the theory of computation." -- it's misleading.
I go to a university in Portland, OR and I'm currently persuing a BS in Computer Science, and I can honestly say that you will be taking courses up through (and past) Linear Algebra, Vector Calculus, and Applied Statistics. I wouldn't say these are courses that require just "a few concepts" beyond high school mathematics, I think it's more accurate to recognize that the foundation of Computer Science in based upon mathematics.
Heck, let's get even more general. I searched for "fun" and got the following results:
When I was an undergrad there weren't enough cycles around to make graphics interesting, but it's hard to imagine anything more fun to work on now.
There's a fundamental problem in "computer science"...
When Harvard kicks undergrads out for a year, they have to get jobs. The idea is to show them how awful the real world is, so they'll understand how lucky they are to be in college. This plan backfired with the guy who came to work for us, because he had more fun than he'd had in school, and made more that year from stock options than any of his professors did in salary.
It's interesting, isn't it, what you can quickly conclude if you just search for the right terms. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a kegger to attend.
The coolest voice ever.
I wonder if he means Cambridge, Massachussetts or Cambridge, England. Because I'd wager that most slashdotters are significantly closer to one than to the other.
My digital rights don't need management.
I found it odd that Paul Grahan considers that
/. debate on whether a CS education should concentrate on teaching concepts or things like widgets (I couldn't believe it when somebody claimed that this should be part of a CS curriculum) -- I just wanted to point out that, in my opinion, a CS grad with (only) high-school knowledge of math probably won't reach too many heights in his field.
/. crowd, who will undoubtedly reply that "who needs a college degree in the first place?! the cousin of my friend of friend is such a great hacker, he knows C++ inside out and never got a degree and he's now landed the best job". Just know that some people derive other pleasures from working in CS, apart from Graham's favorite -- "hacking".
In fact, the amount of math you need as a CS major is a lot less than most university departments like to admit. I don't think you need much more than high school math plus a few concepts from the theory of computation.
I can hardly think of any CS field where high-school math is enough for doing anything serious. The fields where more math is required are too many to list: starting with graphics (analytical geometry), algorithms (obvious), networks (statistics, graph theory) and ending with the Bayesian spam filter, with which Graham is usually associated (if my memory doesn't fail). I won't go into the usual
I can already foresee the usual reaction of the anti-intellectual
And it is also why it is difficult to find top-class databases.
In general he is right. The fun *is* in the hard problems. The hard problems in databases are scaling (speed and size), robustness (ability to recover from error), and security (prevention of unathorized viewing or changing). These are truly hard problems. Often they are solved by doing stuff around the operating system rather than with the operating system.
Actually writing some accounting package or some other database app... That, I agree, will cause you to want to poke your eyes out with a stick.
Hopefully if they want to make this realistic, they will make the startups as cashed starved as the real things, which will make it a very crappy job for students who need to save for college, but could be great experience. Biggest stumbling block for many I suspect will be to look at what they have done and repeatedly say "this is shit" until it truly isn't. Harder than it sounds.
Only an asshole would put his slashdot id on an application, and only a bigger asshole would put a spot on an application for a slashdot id. This sounds more and more like asshole school for assholes by assholes.
Do not work.
Do something you enjoy, anything you enjoy. Play music, draw, hike, anything but "work" (if you happen to land one of those magic jobs where the work is your fun, continue to do that and consider going to school part time - it is a rare thing). Of course there is the "well, I need money for when I return to school" dilemma- take out more loans, build some credit debt do whatever it takes to enjoy life and your limited time
After college, it is likely that one will work [struggle] until [near] death (college it self is hard work, and in some ways more difficult than "real" work, but is generally more desirable in retrospect) so avoid it at all costs while under the broad umbrella of college. Do what you want, it is your life.
blast away, I for one welcome no overlords. (heh, think i'll change my sig)
|plastic....or gasoline?|
If only I had modpoints. Thank you. You are quite right. The CS establishment's anti-intellectualism is obnoxious and damaging to their credibility.
If I have to read one more article about how everything important in life is a hard problem that helps one program better, I'm going to go nuts. Life is life, and things in life should help one to live better. One needs a balanced diet of subjects to have a wholesome existence. College should be about discovering life, not solving hard problems so that one can get a good CS job.
There are only two kinds of math books: those you can't read past the first page, and those you can't read past the first line..
FTA: One of the most valuable things you could do in college would be to learn what math is really about. This may not be easy, because a lot of good mathematicians are bad teachers. And while there are many popular books on math, few seem good.
There are lots of good math books. Graham's just being lazy. Further, lots of good mathematicians are great teachers.
While I've enjoyed other essays Graham has written, this one's pretty sing-songy and seems to repeat lots of things he put in his article aimed at high-school students.
I had a couple of those summers off and blew them because I had no concept of the value of having literally months to do whatever I wanted.
I think you're imposing the worldview of a wants-to-retire work-a-day guy (I'm one of them too) person onto a full-of-energy-but-fundamentally-dumb high school student
Seeing as they started their comapany in the Cambridge, Ma area, they live in the same area, and the foreward of Paul's books mention that area, I think it's a safe bet that they mean England.
I enjoyed the most recent 'what to do in college' essay on PG's site. But considerably less so than I did his 'what to do in high school' essay.
Insofar as Paul's advice is geared toward the general student and not just the "I want to be a God programmer-- full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes" student, I'd have to say it's a bit lacking and a bit limiting, even despite the great advice that it does give. He suggests majoring in something like math, skipping psychology, philosophy, the study of other languages, etc etc etc and concentrating on "hard problems". Implicit in this is
1. That the social sciences have no "hard problems";
2. That the sum total of one's worth as a thinker is held in their ability to solve a branch of "hard problems";
3. That college is fundamentally about learning how to solve "hard problems".
If you want to have a balanced, open-minded outlook on life, you have to reject 1 and 2. If you want to have a realistic chance at being happy in life, you have to reject 3.
My advice to the aspiring programming god in undergrad is to heed Paul's advice up to a point, but also to remember three things:
1. Just because 95% of people in social sciences aren't as smart as you are, that doesn't mean the social sciences themselves aren't worthwhile. Dig a little. Branch out. You'll be better for it.
2. Just as, or more important, than going to college to learn to program, job skills, how to solve "hard problems", or however you want to put it, is that college is the greatest, most well-timed, and most forgiving classroom where you learn how to life your life. Don't forget that or take it for granted. Get out and have some fun and meet some people.
3. Anyone who's really damn good at programming is abnormal. This isn't a valuative statement; you've got some genes in you that are simply not found in a similar configuration in the vast majority of the population. Now, this is going to involve some tradeoffs. Learn to accomodate them and/or live with them, because you're stuck with the bad along with the good. Be OK with that.
And good luck.
Mike
Man, he'll do anything to force people to use Lisp :-)
Table-ized A.I.
College chicks.
You can't take the sky from me...
EBAY STARTUP
"if you ever suffer from insomnia, try reading the technical literature about databases"
:)
Having read a fair amount, he's far from wrong on this point.
how did this get modded insightful while the child was modded down?
burger flipper = "wage slave" as you call it.
entreprenuer != wage slave.
so you're essentially choosing the very fate you despise--in the face of a viable alternative.
ironic, don't you think?
I'm glad someone spoke against this author's CS narrowmindedness.
Work while in school. Work hard. Try many different jobs. Work at a small company. Work at a large multi-national corp. Figure out the kind of environment you'll be most happy in. It's MUCH easier to do those things while in school than afterwards. The more work you put in RIGHT NOW learning about what you want to do for a career and where, the happier (and more successful) you will be in your professional life.
I agree with your assesment, the article is a bit too hand-wavy for me. As for the math books, which ones would you recommend for someone in college with a solid background? Any pointers to sites with lists of good authors?
"During this time you'll do little but work, because when you're not working, your competitors will be. My only leisure activities were running, which I needed to do to keep working anyway, and about fifteen minutes of reading a night. I had a girlfriend for a total of two months during that three year period. Every couple weeks I would take a few hours off to visit a used bookshop or go to a friend's house for dinner. I went to visit my family twice. Otherwise I just worked"
All this for what? The Yahoo fucking store? Look, it's his life and his choice as to how he wants to live it. But I simply don't believe you have to have no life in order to succeed. Look at Richard Branson. He works hard sure, but he hasn't forgotten to have fun along the way.
It's been over 10 years since I was at college and I certainly don't regret that I slacked off and partied a lot of the time. There's a certain freedom at that age that's hard to come by once you get older. You can work hard at any age. Live a little.
One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there
continue your classes in the summer. Do not take your summers off. Summers are a great time to take your useless classes, like gender or sensitivity training that colleges seem intent on stuffing into you nowadays. Do not do the minimum of math classes, take more. Take more physics. When not at school, go to the freaking gym and get some exercise.
Want to get/keep a good job? Learn about digital signal processing.
I'm looking for a few teammates; I proposed everyone needing a team to just email me (borkut at gmail) and we'll get a mailing list going. Multiple teams will probably be spawned.
I'm in the bay area myself, and have a few ideas...
i found the speech that he wrote for high school students to be very interesting, and actually quite motivating (though that wasn't the main purpose). It seemed that this would be a good place for me to ask a few questions too: 1. i've just started high school, and slowly i have gotten better and better at computers and now i'm very interested in programming. I have started to take a few tutorials in C++, but i'm really not sure if this is the languadge i should start in. does anyone have any suggestions as to what i should look at or start doing?
something i made up: "a young mind is none less intelligent than an aged one.....the difference lies in experience. And
I have been a struggling UNIX systems programmer and only recently have I realized I have not done computer architecture, complexity theory, or a good OS subject with some programming in it. My progress has generally been slow in becoming a UNIX "hacker". My advice to people is to do as much theoretical subjects at university because practical ones like .NET, ASP or whatever can easily be learned afterwards.
With expenses covered, it IS good advice.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
The article refers to Graham as a "lisp hacker". This is incorrect. The proper spelling is "Lisp hacker". Like "God", the word "Lisp" must be capitalized to show proper respect; otherwise SHRDLU may eat your firstborn child. Carry on...
He overworked himself yes, but now he's wealthy and respected enough to live without the burden of money over him, forcing him to work on stuff he doesn't want. As he said, it's like cramming 40 years of work life into 4 so you can do whatever you want in the other 36. Besides, you learn much more from the experience than from just working for someone else's company. More importantly, he is a great hacker, so it's in his nature to take challenges.
You have your whole life to work and hopefully during the school year you work hard. So, when you have time off, use it. Use it to travel, sit around or read up on what interests you. Don't believe this "work-is-life" crap. You only live once and you'll have plenty of opportunity. I'm not saying be a lazy bumb but by default you are not. You already work hard and deserve some time to do as you please.
Work on your own programs, take a break from computers all together but all in all, do what YOU want. You won't always be this (generally) young age so enjoy it while you can. You will be working and working hard the rest of your cursed life so make do now.
I never had an internship but did work that was really cool and interesting. Why intern as a programmer when I already do tons of it? I did cool things like surveying to make ends meet in the summer, etc. Working outdoors getting a hell of a tan. Other summers I could travel some, etc.
When graduating recently I got any interview I wanted and even had places calling me that I never applied for. (use your schools career center!)
Now I join the working dead and don't have the time to get out and be free like I used to but at least I did and enjoyed myself.
It's good to be ambitious but it's also a good idea to be ambitious about your time and your life. Enjoy it.
Youth is fleeting.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
We've seen enough of Paul Graham's essays now slashdot that we can find his site now. You don't need to post EVERY essay he writes, which is about once a week or two. He wrote the Yahoo store, he didn't create cold fusion...I will scream if I see one more article from him about what people should do to be like him, when his advice always involves using the word "hack" 50 times, and his advice is more or less irrelevant anyways. People like he and Mark Cuban got really lucky when Yahoo was handing out mad dot com dollars, that doesn't make them all knowing business or coding oracles. Show me a person that started a sucessful company in the dot crash era of 2001-2002, and i'll listen more closely to their advice.
It's the same CS elitism. I don't know why every CS type has to think that they are the gods of the world. Especially DBAs, those are the worst. Apparently knowledge of the Relational Model elevates you to demigod status.
Where do these people come from? There is more to life than computers, you know. Expanding your find via the humanities can change the way you view the world, and make you a better person. And who knows, maybe that new positive outlook on life will inspire you to create solutions to these "hard problems" that you all find so desirable.
Geez, I really am sick of you geeks.
I admire a lot of Graham's writing, and if I could bring myself to really care about programming computers, I would probably admire his code.
But I'm a university senior in C.S., and I find the lack of any mention of a social life disturbing. Unless you are such a geek that you can't talk to girls and aren't interested in meeting people -- college is potential paradise. Nowhere else do so many energetic, diverse, beautiful, free (intellectually,) and interesting people come together.
What, you think you're going to meet lots of fun people ON THE JOB? ha.
My only regret from school is not spending more time socializing my first couple years. You can meet more girls in your own floor of your own dorm building freshman year than you'll probably be able to meet in six months in any period for the rest of your life.
OK, I regret two things: not taking more humanities classes! Sure CS theory is a blast (ha. again,) but the times I was genuinely excited and interested and felt like a HUMAN in college was when I dared to take a random sociology, community studies, or acting course.
Coding is a hobby at best, a job skill at worst. You are only young for a few years, do what is real. Don't be a geek.
I don't know about anyone else, and it could just be cos I go to a rather high-pressure university, but I'm completely drained by the end of term. I'm about to hit 4 or so weeks of holiday and will need every last one for a) rest and recuperation, b) catching up on work and c) getting ready for the next term's worth of stress in the form of exam season.
I get your point, and I think it's an interesting one. But be careful about encouraging students to move quickly into the world of work for the sake of it. It is perfectly possible to burn out at this age.
For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
This guy seems to view college as a way to train yourself in a discipline, and refine your skills. I couldn't disagree more. College is when you educate yourself, and enrich yourself, and expand your horizons. It's when you meet the people who you hang out with because you actually like them, not because their locker happened to be near yours in high school. It's when you have more freedom than ever to go out and do what you want, without the obligations of life and the restrictions of high school tying you down. It's when you find out just what it is you really like doing, and who you are. I can't imagine a better way to become a boring, pitiful waste of a human being than his recommendation of 'take programming classes, do programming research projects, and then you can take a few math classes for some real variety.'
It's not that I have anything against technical work, but really, you're gonna be doing that shit for the rest of your life if you get a job in it. Go out, find some beer, and drink it, for god's sake. Enjoy yourself. He disses social sciences because they're not logical, and subject to trends. He specifically disses on philosophy classes, because they don't teach you in a useful way. That is completely missing the point. They aren't engineering classes. You're not supposed to go through a giant textbook of information and have more thrown at you in lectures. The point of a philosophy class or a literature class is to have a subject that you can go in and discuss. Anyone who can read Nietzsche or Plato or Spinoza and not have a reaction of some sort, and a desire to tell others about it, is just a boring person.
Don't let yourself be pigeonholed like this. Don't be the typical boring engineer who can program anything but can't get a date to save his fucking life. Chances are if you're majoring in Computer Science you're already pretty damn good with computers. Go learn about something else, while the information is easily accessible and you don't have other obligations breathing down your neck. If you think you're smart, then find a way to apply your brain to something else other than the same old shit. Try out some shit that you didn't think you'd be interested in...you might be surprised. And don't forget to have some fun, because if you follow this guy's program, you're not gonna have a lot of chance later.
I know a lot of you think programming is really fun. But trust me, if you go out and look, you'll find other things that are more fun, too.
hot foreign sheep.
If your valuation is in the low-to-mid 100s as he says, say $200,000, and you have 3 founders -- that's $18k they'll give you; and whoosh, you just traded away nearly 10% of your company for the pleasure of living in hot humid Cambridge for a few months.
Oh, that's right, there's other benefits, like you may get patent advice -- but please don't get it from Paul Graham himself. He says you only have a year after "discovering" something to file -- wrong -- you have to file a patent within a year of "publishing" or making something known to the public. And you can't patent anything you can "discover" -- I guess he means like a new continent or something -- you can only patent things you "invent".
Yeah. Right. Be specific man, Lisp is not C, that you can use it for damn near everything. Its harder in C, but anything's possible in C. Not nearly in Lisp.
You want to be a hacker? Be interested in computers - really interested. Learn about processors, learn about how not to use "vanilla" coding techniques. Work on difficult projects sure, but don't let go of a project until you have drained every ounce of understanding out of it. That's how you become a hacker. Be it Lisp or Perl or C,not important, per my 2 cents.
Getting hired while in college is an immense advantage:
:-)
1. You can afford mistakes. You can switch three jobs in two years easily, and without any side effects. Playing the field is important, you don't marry the first woman you meet, right?
2. You get among the first in your generation. This can't be overstated. Of two guys with the same age, who would you hire, one who has 2 years of experience, or one fresh out of college?
3. It is so easy to burn time in college. Put aside those games and beer and do something useful. You will laugh later.
4. It gets you a purpose. Your pet project is okay for a start, but it's hard to maintain a momentum. And you can't get depressed when you are too busy, there is no time!
http://www.call-replay.com
During the summers, I delivered pizzas. This was a hugely valuable lesson: without a college degree, I'd be delivering pizza for a long time. That's when I started to get serious about school. There was no way I wanted to continue in this noble unappreciated profession. This conclusion was echoed by one of my best freinds, who worked in a lumber mill to cover school. He was kind of half-assing it at school until he looked around work one day. He was surrounded by 40-year-old guys named "Lefty" who made $1 an hour more than him. Dude was the only guy in the room with 10 fingers. He decided right there that this was not going to be his future. He buckled down and got serious. 10 years later, based on the success of his startup, he retired.
My point, and I do have one, is that college is valuable time, but not in the way you think. The big big lessons aren't going to be in the classroom and they probably won't be in your major. Sure, you may learn linked lists and binary trees, you may learn the social structure of a Mayan village, but are these really things to base a life on?
While you're in college, take the time. If you're an engineering major, you're already down for a five-year degree. I recommend that you take six years and enjoy yourself a little more. Broaden your horizons. Take a pottery class, learn Russian, hang lights at the theatre, draw. All these things will enrich your life in ways that might not pay off for decades, but they will pay off. College is a time in your life when you have a great deal of freedom and very few responsibilities. Use that time. Waste it wisely.
You want me to put in baser terms? What are you going to DO with those programming languages? The actual applications are outside the Engineering building. Outside is where you learn what needs to be built. It just may be that you figure out that what the world really needs is a cheap open-source application for controlling theatre lights or kiln temperatures. The idea for the billion-dollar startup will come when you're doing something away from the computer.
Baser still? OK, ever notice how many women hang around the arts buildings? Ever notice how few there are in your engineering classes? Do the math, boys.
Interociter
-=What do I want? I'm an American. I want more.
Yeah, a reply from an AC who jus says what I was saying -- except that it is NOT a p-code language (that name is reserved for the venerable UCSD P-code Pascal system of 80s, one of my first IDEs ;-) ). I guess you did mean byte-code...
Paul B.
For smaller startups, the press and advice may be worth it. Having a venture backed by Trevor Blackwell, Paul Graham, and Robert Morris is a huge endorsement if you plan to seek larger VC funding later. And, naturally, the all of the seed shares will get dilluted when further capital comes along, so that 10% doesn't stick.