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Going Beyond the 2 Week Notice?
rovingeyes asks: "Immediately after graduating about two and a half years ago, I joined a local website design and hosting company that was looking for software developers. But soon disaster struck. The chief developer/systems administrator left the company soon after I joined and after a month of his leaving another developer quit, which meant that I was the only developer left in the company. Now for almost 2 years I have been taking care of pretty much everything from systems administration to end-user technical support to development. And after a long time I realized that the growth potential in this company is pretty limited. So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers. Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?"
"Since I am the only developer in the company, I thought giving a 4 week notice instead of 2 would be reasonable, but this happened. Another requirement he added was the need that I be on-call if any disaster strikes with the server infrastructure. Now this is my first real job ever and I don't know how to respond to it. I normally don't outsource, even though the money is good, because I don't want to compromise my current duties. My boss knows this.
Thus this question to my fellow Slashdot readers: Is my boss being reasonable? I can understand his view point of losing the only developer/systems administrator in the company. But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place). Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"
Thus this question to my fellow Slashdot readers: Is my boss being reasonable? I can understand his view point of losing the only developer/systems administrator in the company. But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place). Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"
You don't owe your employer anything. Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional. Anything beyond that is uncalled for unless your employer has been really nice to you over the years.
Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.
You never mentioned being under contract, so I'll assume you aren't. That being said, this is business, you owe your old company nothing, and it owes you nothing. They could fire you at any point for any (non-illegal) reason, and you can quit at any time. Two weeks is a _courtesy_ you are giving the company, when you are required to give none. Settle for anything more and you're being duped.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Use the fact that you are only legally required to give him 2 weeks notice and nothing else as leverage. Then offer him to do what you think is reasonable. Maybe that's only giving him 1 month notice if a new job doesn't give you freedom to be on call for him. Maybe that means being on call only at times you set. Or maybe you can just offer to train the next guy for a little while.
Offer what you think you should be required to do after reminding your boss that you are not obliged to do anything. This might lower your bosses unreasonable expectations.
Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?
No, he's not. Think about it, if they wanted to get rid of you would they give you 6 weeks notice?
Give him two weeks.
Anything beyond that should be charged per hour at the following rate:
(Your yearly salary * 2) / 2080
That's probably about 25-40% more than you cost them right now.
Any hours outside of 9 - 5 are at double-time. Minimum 4 hour charge.
- Tony
I think the best thing to do is sit down with him and explain why it is that you think 4 weeks is more than generous, and why he should expect to pay a premium not a subsidised rate if he requires services post that. While i can appreciate not wishing to burn a bridge, i think at some point you've got to say that the effort required to go past polite and accomidate his wishes is too great. There is no point in upsetting him, but he needs to understand that you are the one with all of the aces in this situation.
Are you serious?
All of this stress going through your head will dissapear about 15 minutes after your final day on this job ends. You know why? Because you DON'T WORK THERE ANYMORE and don't have to do anything they ask anymore.
He can't even make you stay longer than 2 weeks, unless you signed something to the contrary when you joined.
If you are interested in keeping him as a consulting client after you leave (although your message sounds like you'd rather NOT), then negotiate with him. Tell him you want to give two weeks notice, but will meet him in the middle and give him 4 in consideration of the fact that you will be doing consulting for him.
Remember, after you walk out that door, your energy, commitment, enthusiasm, and mind will be on your NEW JOB, not this old one.
I had a terrible job once (paid well though) that had me on beeper duty all times of day and night and weekends. I could have been an obstetrician if I had wanted that. On my final day there after my two weeks was up, my boss became irate with me because I wouldn't stay late my last Friday night there. I explained I was sorry that he had to stay late, but I didn't work there anymore. I wasn't being paid to be there. And then I left at 5pm for the first time in 2 years.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Unless you signed something to the contrary (and even then its probably not enforceable (IANAL)), you can quit with no notice at all. Anything beyond that is negotiable, for the right price. It's hard to tell from the brief description, but it sounds like he was willing to let you keep working yourself to death and pocketing the savings by not hiring and training someone else. Very short sighted on his part now that you're leaving him high and dry. I'd tell him that if he needs you after you're gone, consulting rates are $150/hour, 2 hours mimimum and only if you're available.
You're in charge now. If you want to work with him, fine, but do it from the position of power you have. You don't need him. He needs you.
I understand loyalty. I'm very loyal, but it doesn't sound like your boss deserves it.
'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
After all, it's his job to make things go smoothly after your depart -- why not try to cajole or guilt you into staying as long as possible? What isn't reasonable though is for you to fall for that -- give him the two weeks you are required to, and after that it's none of his business what you do.
501 Not Implemented
In the United States, slavery is illegal. You can leave at any time. Nobody can force you to work, either for money or for free.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Unless you signed a contract obliging you to give in to your bosses outrageous demands, don't do it. People in hell want ice water, that doesn't mean they are entitled to it. Give him two weeks, and if he gives you further grief, walk.
How ya like dat?
I've been hired and quit within the same hour. Telemarketing sucks.
As for the on call, go for it, write your own new contract, demand at least $50 an hour including drive time. You don't owe them anything but if they want to keep you on call there's no reason not to turn it to your advantage.
For those who think that this is an unreasonable amount, call a plumber, locksmith, electrician, repairman, any on call professional has the right to demand whatever the market will bear; and considering that these people seem to have had recruiting problems they may scoff at first, but when the shit hits the fan they'll come running.
Even better wait to negotiate a new contract until they're having an emergency.
I mean worst case they're going to say no, and if they say yes $$$
Well art is art isn't it, but then again water is water; and east is east; and west is west; and if you take cranberries
What he's asking for is indentured servitude, and the reason he thinks he can get away with it is he thinks he can guilt you into it.
Give him two weeks notice. Period. Don't worry about burning bridges, as you don't want to work for this clown anyway.
Your boss is being unreasonable. 4 weeks is plenty generous on your part. Explain to him that he had 2 1/2 years to remedy the situation and that 2 more weeks isn't going to make a difference. Explain to him that if he wants support, it will have to be on your terms and at your rates and on the condition that it does not interefere with new contracts/jobs. Be professional about it, but partly that means presenting yourself as your own entity and not his personal minion. He needn't take you up on your proposal, but that is his choice.
He has never "owned you" and I am assuming that over the time you were employed there that you acted responsibility and did what was asked (ie. you earned your paychecks). He has no right to demand more from you, particularly once you are no longer an employee.
It is difficult when you are the go-to-guy in a small outfit where you likely have a very personal relationship with your boss. Your leaving may very well jeopordize his business so he can take it personally, but then again, his business is his responsibility, not yours. Don't be surprised if you are suddenly offered down-the-road equity or other future incentives. You may decide that such offers are in your benefit, but beware and think carefully. They can also be more of the string-you-along type of offers and if you are already in a business relationship where you have the weak hand then it is very difficult to change that.
Consider what would happen if the company suddenly went bust -- likely you would get shown the door, any outstanding owed wages and accumulated vacation pay and that's it.
I know its tough because it involves a personal relationship but there comes a time when you have to think of yourself first. Your boss is obviously doing that on his part, you must do it on yours.
Good luck!
You mentionned getting other job offers. Get this "demand" of your boss in writing (the 6 weeks + on call stuff). I assume that this was never part of any contract you signed with the company.
The reason: when you go for the other job, they'll most likely ask for references. There is nothing worse than getting a bad reference, especially from your last employer. If he decides to say you left with little or no notice, you can show the new company that you gave two weeks which was plently, and his "real" demands were completely unreasonable.
Just because its your "job" to do something; doesn't make any action taken under that guise "reasonable".
That's so basic I am surprised even slashdot moderators failed to recognize it and modded you up.
1. He can do whatever he's been doing, which obviously is going to cost him his only developer, which might very well mean the company goes under.
2. He can let you go, but make an arrangement with you (and this does not mean him demanding things - as #1 above illustrates, he is in no position to negotiate) for you to provide some sort of continuing support on a consulting/contract basis.
3. He can do a total about face and actually do what he should have done in the first place - maintain appropriate staffing levels instead of "saving heaps of money" by making one person do everything. I don't know whether he can afford this or not.
If I were in your boss's shoes, and could afford it, I'd probably be looking at doing #3 and asking you to manage it (at, of course, a higher salary), since I (as him) obviously couldn't find my ass in a dark closet, business-wise, and you obviously can.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Your boss sounds like an ass. Like many people have said, you're not "required" to do jack, and two weeks is a courtesy. As far as being "on-call" when you don't work there, that's called being an Outside Consultant, which usually requires a sizable retainer to cover your enormous hourly rates. Though in this scenario, I'd probably do everything in my power to avoid contact with this company in the future; some accounts just aren't worth the headache.
However, I would definitely stick with the four weeks, since that's what you offered to begin with. Plus, as a added benefit, if you make it known at your new job that you're giving your old job four weeks instead of two, it'll display you in a very good light to your new employers.
This too, will end.
What your boss should be having you do is document the crap out of everything, and then sweet talking you into accepting calls from whoever replaces you.
Even then, memory fades. You get into your new job and the details of the old job get harder to recall.
You owe your new boss your full intellectual bandwidth, especially in the learning stages, when you are not contributing as much as you will once you know the job.
Your current employer is trying to walk all over you.
Do not allow them to.
Here's what is reasonable for a professional:
1) Two weeks notice
That's it. NOTHING more.
If you want to do more for them, then treat it like a brand new business arrangement, everything is on the table and you should not hesitate to take as much of it as you can.
That means, that under no circumstances, would a professional EVER give away their time for LESS than they were being compensated for before. To do so is to open yourself up to all kinds of continuing employment abuse. Do not, in any way, allow any sort of feelings of guilt or the like manipulate you into discounting your worth. Apparently they NEED you and in business that translates into paying MORE, not less.
Go to the RealRates forum for sage advice from experienced contractors on how to handle this former employer's needs without letting him take advantage of you.
PS, that your former boss would demand these things of you suggests that you've been mistreated all along and probably didn't realize it (I bet you were vastly underpaid and probably more than a little overworked). A stand-up guy would try to negotiate fairly, but he is clearly NOT doing that, instead is trying to manipulate you. That means the gloves are off and HE took them off, do not feel bad about playing hardball yourself, he started it after all.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Your employer should have been preparing for this possibility a long time ago. He should have known how thoroughly your departure could screw up his business, and made sure that somebody else knew how to do everything you've been doing.
Your obligations here are minimal. Legally, you could be a complete twerp about it, walk off, and not return his calls. It sounds like you're being quite fair, and are fulfilling any ethical responsibilities you may have.
The flip side is, this is the guy's company. Your departure may lead to a string of disasters that could kill it off entirely. The big question is, is there enough bad blood between you and the company that you wouldn't mind letting your boss suffer for his mistakes? If so, I don't see any reason to let your relationship continue beyond the four weeks you outlined earlier. Maybe less, if your boss's counter-offer was galling enough.
But if you like and respect your former employer, do them a favor and be willing to negotiate some price at which you'll come back in and save their butts from certain doom. "Subsidized" is unreasonable. You have a right to not be taken advantage of, and a responsibility to make it clear that you won't be around forever. I would start with double your current hourly rate after your four weeks is up, and increment every week.
By the end of the fifth week, charge three times your old rate, and four times by the end of the sixth week. As your replacement (replacements, if your boss has learned anything from this experience) adapts to his new environment, their need for you will dwindle even as your rates increase. At some point, it's just not worth it for them to call you anymore.
For your remaining time, start documenting procedures, settings, and for godssake comment that rats nest of code! Good luck in your new job.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
A draft can't force you to work either.
If you are going to coerce people into working for you, it's not the wisest idea to issue them guns and train them to kill.
You can tell where I'm going with this.
The flip side is, this is the guy's company. Your departure may lead to a string of disasters that could kill it off entirely. The big question is, is there enough bad blood between you and the company that you wouldn't mind letting your boss suffer for his mistakes? If so, I don't see any reason to let your relationship continue beyond the four weeks you outlined earlier. Maybe less, if your boss's counter-offer was galling enough.
I'm sick of seeing companies (especially small ones) bring on green I.T. guys... fill their head full of responsibilities and loyalties, but pay them jack squat. Then when they get the nerve to look around or ask for a raise - it gets thrown in their face that they're "ingrates" or "ungrateful" because company x took a "chance" and hired them... and they owe it company x.
I say blow me - have fun teaching the next guy my uncommented code, and tricks to get your cheapass copier to work day after day.
Try $100-$150/hour at reasonable times of day during the week, and $200-$300/hour any other time for on call stuff. When they're losing money and you're indispensible, they get to pay out the nose.
If, as I suspect, your employment is "at will" meaning your employer can fire you without notice and you can quit without notice. You can bet your employer would not be offering to give you 6 weeks extra pay or other benefits if they terminated your employment.
Unless they gave you some tremendous benefit at a time you needed it, or really did something nice for you when they could have squeezed you over it, never under any circumstances charge less. Since I suspect this has never happened, do not give them anything at a discount. No exceptions. In fact, you should charge more because it costs them less.
You do not owe them any discount at all and it was unreasonable for them to ask for it. Doesn't mean they can't ask, but if they can't afford you they have no business running a computer system in the first place. They wouldn't be getting an employee to work at a discount, they shouldn't expect it of a consultant.
If you want to be more than fair, mirror exactly what they offer you. If all you get out of them if you are fired is two weeks severence, then that's all the notice they should get. If they want you to work for them beyond your employment it should be at full pay or above since you're not their employee.
In fact, since you are not their employee they shouldn't be getting a discount you should be charging them at least double to cover your overhead (you have to pay the full 14% Social Security, not just the 7% employee tax, you have to cover your own health care (the fact you may have it from another employer is irrelevant; it's still a cost they would have to pay if you were their employee and they are not paying yours), you have to carry your own disability insurance (again, it's a cost they're not paying that they would otherwise), and you have to pay your own pension plan contributions in addition to what would be company match). Also they aren't paying you for sitting around when you're not working for them, which means there's no overhead cost added, so even at twice your wages your cost to them as a consultant is less than that of an employee.
There is absolutely no excuse for a company to be paying a former employee who is now a consultant less than at least twice his employee wages except an attempt by the company to cheat him by paying him as a non-employee less than he is worth as an employee. Which is ridiculous since even at twice the cost it's still less than the fully burdened cost of an employee, which is at least 2 1/2 times actual salary.
Paul Robinson
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.