Going Beyond the 2 Week Notice?

rovingeyes asks: "Immediately after graduating about two and a half years ago, I joined a local website design and hosting company that was looking for software developers. But soon disaster struck. The chief developer/systems administrator left the company soon after I joined and after a month of his leaving another developer quit, which meant that I was the only developer left in the company. Now for almost 2 years I have been taking care of pretty much everything from systems administration to end-user technical support to development. And after a long time I realized that the growth potential in this company is pretty limited. So I decided to look for other jobs and immediately got multiple offers. Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?" "Since I am the only developer in the company, I thought giving a 4 week notice instead of 2 would be reasonable, but this happened. Another requirement he added was the need that I be on-call if any disaster strikes with the server infrastructure. Now this is my first real job ever and I don't know how to respond to it. I normally don't outsource, even though the money is good, because I don't want to compromise my current duties. My boss knows this.

Thus this question to my fellow Slashdot readers: Is my boss being reasonable? I can understand his view point of losing the only developer/systems administrator in the company. But I don't think I am bound by any law that I should provide those kinds of services (since we have no contract in place). Should I negotiate or just ignore them? Is a burnt bridge worth it?"

Comments

Are you mad?

[cjsnell]

You don't owe your employer anything. Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional. Anything beyond that is uncalled for unless your employer has been really nice to you over the years.

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.

Re:Are you mad?

[Roadkills-R-Us]

2 weeks would be acceptable, 4 weeks is about right, especially since this is a startup and you have been crucial. Then again, it doesn't sound as if he's really treated you as a key person.

As to his expectations, he's trying to cover his fanny for being stupid enough to run this way. He should never have had you as the sole techie., or if he did, he should have been working on golden handcuffs. (Even there, he's gotta have a backup plan. What if you got hit by a tiny comet?)

I'd ask myself a couple of questions at this point.

1) How has he treated me overall?
2) What do I want at this point-- extra work and money, or to get on with life and have some free time?

Those should help you decide what to do.

Personally, I would not be likely to do what he asks, even if the boss was my best friend, unless the compensation was very, very good.

And as other have said. don't sign anything!

Re:Are you mad?

[TheWanderingHermit]

Not only get the on-call stuff in writing (if you decide to do it at all), but also make it clear to them (and make sure this is in writing), that your new job takes priority, so you are not available when you are at the new job, whether it's regular hours, overtime, or even on-call time. Also make it clear if this old boss pages you, and while working on their systems, you get paged by the new company, that the new company takes priority.

Re:Are you mad?

[egarland]

Two weeks notice is being reasonable. Four weeks notice is being professional.

Actually, four weeks may be unprofessional depending on the needs of your new employer. The first few weeks and months at a new job are critical to making a good impression. Not being there is lousy way to make a good impression. It will likely cost you oportunity in your new job so make sure your old employer makes it worth your while.

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates.

6 weeks is totally unreasonable. The good news is, you are holding all the cards here. They want something from you, you want nothing from them. Absolutely support them however much they want, but the proper payment for work like this is triple your full time rate. It keeps you motivated to help and them motivated to get someone else and not treat you like a doormat. If you need the money, they may be able to bargain you down a bit but remember, every amount of time you help them is time you are making a bad impression at your new job. Make sure its well worth it for both of you or just don't do it at all.

Re:Are you mad?

[cgenman]

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and shove 'em.

Tell this guy to take his "subsidized rates" and raise'em. You're the only developer, so you're the only one who knows how their system works. That makes you extremely valuable, at least in the short term.

Dirt-cheap on call computer support (like me) is generally 50 dollars an hour. Good techies who know their stuff should be about 100. People who have extra special knowledge, like being the only person on the planet who knows how that server works, can easily get 200 or more.

Your employer can't not let you go. They can't demand that you stay six weeks. The fact that they're so admant about keeping you for as long as possible should show you how much power you have in this situation.

I'd say that if they've been great to you, of course be nice when leaving and maybe even do some light on-call stuff over the phone for free. But if they were being nice to you they wouldn't have tripled your workload... they would have hired people to replace the developers they lost.

Of course, you could go another route. What are the chances that they would agree to letting you drop down to 20 hours per week at the same salary? It happened to a very close friend of mine, who suddenly had both the money and the time to enjoy her life. It could happen to you too.

Welcome to at-will employment

[bconway]

You never mentioned being under contract, so I'll assume you aren't. That being said, this is business, you owe your old company nothing, and it owes you nothing. They could fire you at any point for any (non-illegal) reason, and you can quit at any time. Two weeks is a _courtesy_ you are giving the company, when you are required to give none. Settle for anything more and you're being duped.

Re:Welcome to at-will employment

[nocomment]

He actually did mention that he is _not_ under contract. I think it's unreasonable for a boss to say that 6 weeks is a "requirement". I think the asker is screwed anyway, and the bridge is burned. Get out of there and don't look back. I have a lot of bosses who would give me a bad reference simply because I moved on. If you found a new job, ask the new job when they need you and tell your boss the requirements of the new job. Most employers understand the 2 week courtesy and will let you start after a couple weeks to tie things up at your new job. Slightly offtopic: I had a boss once who refused to talk to me or even look at me after I put in my two weeks. That was really uncomfortable. If it's a situation like that just bail.

You are not bound by any law

[CarlinWithers]

But it would be much better if you kept on his good side for the reference and ability to keep this as positive work experience on your resume.

Use the fact that you are only legally required to give him 2 weeks notice and nothing else as leverage. Then offer him to do what you think is reasonable. Maybe that's only giving him 1 month notice if a new job doesn't give you freedom to be on call for him. Maybe that means being on call only at times you set. Or maybe you can just offer to train the next guy for a little while.

Offer what you think you should be required to do after reminding your boss that you are not obliged to do anything. This might lower your bosses unreasonable expectations.

Simple answer

[tdemark]

Now my boss wants 6 weeks notice plus on call service for another 3 months at subsidized rates. Is my boss being reasonable?

No, he's not. Think about it, if they wanted to get rid of you would they give you 6 weeks notice?

Give him two weeks.

Anything beyond that should be charged per hour at the following rate:

(Your yearly salary * 2) / 2080

That's probably about 25-40% more than you cost them right now.

Any hours outside of 9 - 5 are at double-time. Minimum 4 hour charge.

- Tony

Explain all

[danbond_98]

I think the best thing to do is sit down with him and explain why it is that you think 4 weeks is more than generous, and why he should expect to pay a premium not a subsidised rate if he requires services post that. While i can appreciate not wishing to burn a bridge, i think at some point you've got to say that the effort required to go past polite and accomidate his wishes is too great. There is no point in upsetting him, but he needs to understand that you are the one with all of the aces in this situation.

Re:Its a courtesy..

[glk572]

I've been hired and quit within the same hour. Telemarketing sucks.

As for the on call, go for it, write your own new contract, demand at least $50 an hour including drive time. You don't owe them anything but if they want to keep you on call there's no reason not to turn it to your advantage.

For those who think that this is an unreasonable amount, call a plumber, locksmith, electrician, repairman, any on call professional has the right to demand whatever the market will bear; and considering that these people seem to have had recruiting problems they may scoff at first, but when the shit hits the fan they'll come running.

Even better wait to negotiate a new contract until they're having an emergency.

I mean worst case they're going to say no, and if they say yes $$$

Be nice but stand up for yourself

[xoboots]

Your boss is being unreasonable. 4 weeks is plenty generous on your part. Explain to him that he had 2 1/2 years to remedy the situation and that 2 more weeks isn't going to make a difference. Explain to him that if he wants support, it will have to be on your terms and at your rates and on the condition that it does not interefere with new contracts/jobs. Be professional about it, but partly that means presenting yourself as your own entity and not his personal minion. He needn't take you up on your proposal, but that is his choice.

He has never "owned you" and I am assuming that over the time you were employed there that you acted responsibility and did what was asked (ie. you earned your paychecks). He has no right to demand more from you, particularly once you are no longer an employee.

It is difficult when you are the go-to-guy in a small outfit where you likely have a very personal relationship with your boss. Your leaving may very well jeopordize his business so he can take it personally, but then again, his business is his responsibility, not yours. Don't be surprised if you are suddenly offered down-the-road equity or other future incentives. You may decide that such offers are in your benefit, but beware and think carefully. They can also be more of the string-you-along type of offers and if you are already in a business relationship where you have the weak hand then it is very difficult to change that.

Consider what would happen if the company suddenly went bust -- likely you would get shown the door, any outstanding owed wages and accumulated vacation pay and that's it.

I know its tough because it involves a personal relationship but there comes a time when you have to think of yourself first. Your boss is obviously doing that on his part, you must do it on yours.

Good luck!

Get the 6 weeks and pay in writing!

[failedlogic]

You mentionned getting other job offers. Get this "demand" of your boss in writing (the 6 weeks + on call stuff). I assume that this was never part of any contract you signed with the company.

The reason: when you go for the other job, they'll most likely ask for references. There is nothing worse than getting a bad reference, especially from your last employer. If he decides to say you left with little or no notice, you can show the new company that you gave two weeks which was plently, and his "real" demands were completely unreasonable.

4 weeks makes you look good.

[kponto]

Your boss sounds like an ass. Like many people have said, you're not "required" to do jack, and two weeks is a courtesy. As far as being "on-call" when you don't work there, that's called being an Outside Consultant, which usually requires a sizable retainer to cover your enormous hourly rates. Though in this scenario, I'd probably do everything in my power to avoid contact with this company in the future; some accounts just aren't worth the headache.

However, I would definitely stick with the four weeks, since that's what you offered to begin with. Plus, as a added benefit, if you make it known at your new job that you're giving your old job four weeks instead of two, it'll display you in a very good light to your new employers.

Adding my voice to the chorus

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Your current employer is trying to walk all over you.
Do not allow them to.

Here's what is reasonable for a professional:
1) Two weeks notice

That's it. NOTHING more.

If you want to do more for them, then treat it like a brand new business arrangement, everything is on the table and you should not hesitate to take as much of it as you can.

That means, that under no circumstances, would a professional EVER give away their time for LESS than they were being compensated for before. To do so is to open yourself up to all kinds of continuing employment abuse. Do not, in any way, allow any sort of feelings of guilt or the like manipulate you into discounting your worth. Apparently they NEED you and in business that translates into paying MORE, not less.

Go to the RealRates forum for sage advice from experienced contractors on how to handle this former employer's needs without letting him take advantage of you.

PS, that your former boss would demand these things of you suggests that you've been mistreated all along and probably didn't realize it (I bet you were vastly underpaid and probably more than a little overworked). A stand-up guy would try to negotiate fairly, but he is clearly NOT doing that, instead is trying to manipulate you. That means the gloves are off and HE took them off, do not feel bad about playing hardball yourself, he started it after all.

You owe them exactly nothing

[rfc1394]

If you have a contract (which I doubt) they owe you salary up till the end of the contract and you can't quit before it.

If, as I suspect, your employment is "at will" meaning your employer can fire you without notice and you can quit without notice. You can bet your employer would not be offering to give you 6 weeks extra pay or other benefits if they terminated your employment.

Unless they gave you some tremendous benefit at a time you needed it, or really did something nice for you when they could have squeezed you over it, never under any circumstances charge less. Since I suspect this has never happened, do not give them anything at a discount. No exceptions. In fact, you should charge more because it costs them less.

You do not owe them any discount at all and it was unreasonable for them to ask for it. Doesn't mean they can't ask, but if they can't afford you they have no business running a computer system in the first place. They wouldn't be getting an employee to work at a discount, they shouldn't expect it of a consultant.

If you want to be more than fair, mirror exactly what they offer you. If all you get out of them if you are fired is two weeks severence, then that's all the notice they should get. If they want you to work for them beyond your employment it should be at full pay or above since you're not their employee.

In fact, since you are not their employee they shouldn't be getting a discount you should be charging them at least double to cover your overhead (you have to pay the full 14% Social Security, not just the 7% employee tax, you have to cover your own health care (the fact you may have it from another employer is irrelevant; it's still a cost they would have to pay if you were their employee and they are not paying yours), you have to carry your own disability insurance (again, it's a cost they're not paying that they would otherwise), and you have to pay your own pension plan contributions in addition to what would be company match). Also they aren't paying you for sitting around when you're not working for them, which means there's no overhead cost added, so even at twice your wages your cost to them as a consultant is less than that of an employee.

There is absolutely no excuse for a company to be paying a former employee who is now a consultant less than at least twice his employee wages except an attempt by the company to cheat him by paying him as a non-employee less than he is worth as an employee. Which is ridiculous since even at twice the cost it's still less than the fully burdened cost of an employee, which is at least 2 1/2 times actual salary.

Paul Robinson