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Miguel de Icaza Explains How To "Get" Mono

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the whats-wrong-with-wget dept.

LeninZhiv writes "It's perhaps the most controversial project in the open source world, but this mostly stems from misunderstanding: Mono, the open source development platform based upon Microsoft's .NET framework. Immediate reactions from many dubious Linux developers have ranged from confusion over its connection with .NET to wondering what the benefits of developing under it are. Throughout the course of its four years of intense development, sponsored by Novell, Mono founder Miguel de Icaza has had to frequently clarify the .NET issue and sell the community on it. In this new interview, Howard Wen asks Miguel to explain himself one more time."

13 of 559 comments (clear)

  1. Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by the_mad_poster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Rather than continuing to de Icaza drone on and on trying to vindicate his project again, is there anyone here who has actually USED Mono and has something to say about it one way or another? Particularly interesting issues:

    - Mono Vs C++
    - Mono Vs .NET C#
    - Mono compatibility claims

    Insight from some USERS would probably be more beneficial now than more bickering over what Mono is or whether it should even be.

    --
    Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    1. Re:Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by jone1941 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm sure I know less than most, but here are my general experiences with it.

      Mono Vs C++ - this is not a normal comparison due to one being a byte-code language and the other being compiled. That being said, I'm continuously impressed with mono's speed (especially compared to Java). It's current downside is an increase in memory utilization (compared to c, c++).

      Mono Vs. .Net C# - The only major difference is mono's lack of complete support for windows.forms. This is windows primary API for building C# gui apps under windows. Mono is working on an implementation of windows.forms, but I personally prefer gtk# which is portable (at least to windows afaik). Also, they have and ASP.net implementation which is suppose to have great compatability but I can not speak from experience here

      Mono compatability claims - here's the shocker, it really is very compatable with microsoft's C# .net platform. We're talking about ECMA specifications here, so they really can strive for compatability, it's less of (though not completely) a moving target than the WINE people have to deal with. They use to have a page listing package status, I can't seem to find the link anymore.

      Disclaimer: I've been working on various small personal projects using mono for the last 6 months and have been using various apps centerend around mono for about the same.

      --
      Fear trumps hope and ignorance trumps both
    2. Re:Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is a bit long-winded, bare with me, I'm practically a ./ virgin ;)

      Some time ago, getting spontaneously fed up with C++ with managing memory, obscure STL bugs and so forth, I decided to check out if Mono 1.1.4 (C#) would cut if for my application performance-wise.

      Now, this application is a quite performance hungry scientific comptation app wich makes heavy use of vector and matrix operations so the first thing I did was port a sub-set of my home-grown library for this to C#.

      The classes use operator overloading to facilitate greater readability in the main code. I then proceeded to implement a fairly simple set of algorithms to test the performance of C#/Mono vs C++. Although I did expect some sort of overhead and slowdown in C#, I was quite surprised and discouraged to find that overall, compiled C++ was faster than Mono's JIT by several orders of magnitude (i.e. 0.018s vs. 1.2s). As is well-known, in theory a good JIT should be able to handle some things better than a static compiler can - and I expected this to be the case with Mono's JIT as well, so to at least lessen the performance impact somewhat.

      Now, I have seen what Sun has been able to do with their JIT compiler the last couple of years. I many cases Java code executing under their JIT will have a acceptable (small) overhead compared to native C++ code - and the productivity increase of dealing with managed code will more than make up for this. Unfortunately, the powers-that-be in the Java language community decided to ban operator overloading, apparently because it can be mis-used. As if one cannot create functions that don't do what you would think they do as well :P Be that as it may, enough flames have been traded on this subject in the past; for me, operator overloading is a major point when doing scientific algorithms, so java is not an option.

      I started to dig a little to find out why Mono's JIT fared so poorly in my case (which admittedly probably is a fairly untypical use). The reason seems to be that pracically none of the operator overloaded operations were getting inlined. And the objects returned from e.g. a vector addition operation were actually being created instead of being temp-used by the caller (I forget the term for this type of optimization). Also, it seemed that only extremely basic loops/brances would be optimized.

      A bit of googling shows that this is a known problem in Microsofts JIT as well. The reason is supposedly the need for a balancing of application-startup and JIT time. Reports pertaining to the new JIT shipping with the newest .Net framework beta indicates that this will still be present in the next version of the MS .Net JIT.

      Now, I appreciate that my kind of app is probably on the fringes of what could be considered "a typical" .Net app, but I'm still dissapointed with the performance compared to other JITed languages like, say, Java.

      I also tried the Mono AHT compiler with various settings with no significant performance gain for my examples (and quite a bit of slowdown in some cases).

      So, end of story; I'm back with C++, with it's irritating - but familiar - quirks and methodolgy. As for now, there still are no other (OO) languages that meets my needs for high performance and language convenience (operator overloading) - and yes, I've looked at Python+Pyrex/Psyco as well.

      Hopefully this issue will be address in a future Mono JIT, but I have a feeling it may not be high on the priority list as most "ordinary" apps will not suffer from this kind of problem.

      YMM, of course :)

    3. Re:Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by kc8kgu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't normally feed the trolls, but I'll make an exception in your case. I'm tired of hearing how great Java is especially compared to C#. I honestly don't know which is faster - I haven't tested them myself. But, I would guess that java, being much older then C#, has had time to do a good bit of optimization and may very well be as much as 20% to 30% faster.

      But who cares?

      If you need balls to the wall performance, you use C, C++ or assembly - plain and simple. It's not about performance. If it were, no one would have ever heard of Perl, Python, PHP, or Ruby. You don't need blistering speed for 99% of the apps you use in a day. And computer time is a thousand times cheaper then developer time. So unless you're writing an OS or crunching numbers speed is usually a secondary concern.

      IMHO Java's only useful feature is that it has the best platform portability in computing history (although it isn't perfect). Java apps run about as well on OS X as on Linux as on Windows as on Solaris on their various hardware. That is a wonderful thing. However, Java GUIs pretty much suck on every platform.

      As for C#, Ballmer had it right when he said Developers! Developers! Developers!. C# has a completely awesome IDE and a consistent and elegant language that hasn't been patched and tinkered with haphazardly a dozen times. And although I think C# is syntactically and semantically more elegant and consistent and well though out, those facts are irrelevant as well. VB didn't take the lion's share of professional software development because people loved the ascetics of the language. It was all about more easy it made a programmers job. You could do in a day in VB what would take you a week with C and the Win32 API and have fewer bugs to boot. How awesome is that. So now we have the wonderful rapid easy development environment of the VBs of yore mixed with the sugary love of consistent syntax and semantics that is the C# language.

      That's what Java didn't have and doesn't have, and probably never will

      DISCLAMER:
      My experience is mostly based on running things in windows. I have tried Eclipse and NetBeans as recently as a couple months ago. I'm a fan of Linux and open source and tinker with Debian at home. But, I am an independent software contractor and value my time and Visual Studio kicks ass.

      And remember kids, Linux is only free if your time has no value.

      Daniel Carter
      KC8KGU@hot?.com
      ?=mail

    4. Re:Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by Daytona955i · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Normally I don't feed the trolls either but....
      IMHO Java's only useful feature is that it has the best platform portability in computing history (although it isn't perfect). Java apps run about as well on OS X as on Linux as on Windows as on Solaris on their various hardware. That is a wonderful thing. However, Java GUIs pretty much suck on every platform.
      Yes, java apps run the same on all the platforms but to say their GUIs pretty much suck on every platform means that you are really misinformed or are basing your assumptions on things you've seen years ago. Take the bittorrent client Azureus... it looks just like any other windows program. The eclipse IDE, again looks just like a windows program. They are both written in Java. So if you think they look bad then you think that all programs on said windowing systems look bad.

      As for C#, Ballmer had it right when he said Developers! Developers! Developers!. C# has a completely awesome IDE and a consistent and elegant language that hasn't been patched and tinkered with haphazardly a dozen times. And although I think C# is syntactically and semantically more elegant and consistent and well though out, those facts are irrelevant as well. VB didn't take the lion's share of professional software development because people loved the ascetics of the language. It was all about more easy it made a programmers job. You could do in a day in VB what would take you a week with C and the Win32 API and have fewer bugs to boot. How awesome is that. So now we have the wonderful rapid easy development environment of the VBs of yore mixed with the sugary love of consistent syntax and semantics that is the C# language.
      Personally I love the JDeveloper IDE from Oracle. However eclipse is nice once you get it setup. Visual Studio is ok but it still doesn't make up for the fact that you're still having to write in C# or some other windows bastardization of a language.

      That's what Java didn't have and doesn't have, and probably never will
      Have what a dominace? I dunno, I like what google has done with java and most sites that use Oracle are now starting to use java as well because Oracle is starting to get behind it. .NET has what.... Microsoft? Ok so mono ports it to linux but you're still limiting yourself. Java runs on just about anything so if Microsoft and linux both go away tomorrow you don't have to throw away any of your code.

      DISCLAMER:
      My experience is mostly based on running things in windows. I have tried Eclipse and NetBeans as recently as a couple months ago. I'm a fan of Linux and open source and tinker with Debian at home. But, I am an independent software contractor and value my time and Visual Studio kicks ass.
      I value my time as well, that's why I prefer Linux. No more hunting through countless windows to find the right configuration tab... doh, windows moved it again. I can't remember where a config file in Linux is I can search for it. Can you search for a tab in a window? I work for a very small software company and we briefly considered .Net but it was only a brief thought. With Oracle and JDeveloper it took us very little time to get our stuff up and running. I've used Visial Studio and I really don't see what the big deal is. It's just another IDE that I would put on par with eclipse. However, I still prefer JDeveloper although I will eventually look at some of the plugins for eclipse and it may meet our needs as well. (JDeveloper is free and can be used with other DBs as well so it's not really an issue right now)

      Of course as you said, Who cares. I'm not going to convince you to use Java and you're certainly not going to convice me to use .NET so we'll just have to wait and see when Microsoft will decide to stop supporting it and force you to upgrade to .NET2006 and backwards compatibility will kindof work except for any networking features because all the network stuff has been rewritten. (Laugh... that was a joke)

    5. Re:Anyone Have Actual Experience With Mono? by Lije+Baley · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>VB didn't take the lion's share of professional software development because people loved the ascetics of the language.

      Yeah, I was once a VB ascetic. I spent a year wandering the desert, contemplating whether to use 1 or 0-based indexing. And when I returned with the Answer, there indeed was no love for me.

      --
      Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
  2. Dubious Developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems rather unfair to call those developers who do not support Mono "dubious". Surely it would be better to say they are "sceptical".

  3. Bullet Points by GodLived · · Score: 5, Funny

    Interesting interview. I often find myself talking in bullet points, but the way Miguel adds boldface and sublevel indents while talking - now that is an achievement.

  4. A shackers guide to Mono by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The dreaded "kissing disease" mono is transferred through saliva from one living host to another. Mono may incubate, biding it's time, in the human host for up to a month before it starts exibiting symptoms. Once mono kicks in, expect swelling of the throat and lymphic nodes, headaches, and extreme fatigue.

    Victims of mono can be identified by the paling or discoloration of the skin, and will commonly walk with a shuffle and have half-opened eyes because of fatigue. Because of the swelling of the throat they may have difficulty talking, and will usually only talk in groaning sounding, short sentances. They will hunger, and they will hunger for something that they can manage to swallow, such as soft, succulent human brains. If you see anybody shuffling towards you, looking dead tired, moaning braaiiiiiiiins, it's best to stay away, or you too may be infected. You may become infected through exchanging saliva, or more commonly, having the sick exchange salive with your blood in an attempt for him or her to feed off of your brain-meats. Mono infected people only take half damage against physical attacks, and can only truly be killed by completely desroying the body through total physical damage or by burning. Recommended for parties of 4-5 players, levels 6-8.

  5. Useful? by DreadSpoon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How would a new VM architecture be useful? What do you imagine it would be capable of that .NET is not? How much use would such an architecture get when it has no compatibility with anything else in the world? Why does Microsoft get slammed for creating a new proprietary technology and calling it 'innovating' while Open Source projects that reuse existing systems are slammed for not 'innovating'? How quickly do you think a VM as complete, efficient, and powerful as Mono's could have be written if they didn't have the Microsoft CLR to target during development (it was a year or two before Mono was self-hosting, yet during those initial years it was still developed at breakneck speeds) ?

  6. Re:CopyCats... by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Yep. And slashcode is just copying because it uses TCP/IP. It should have its own transmission protocol, called SCP, based on its own internetworking program, called SIP.


    The whole point of implementing a standard is to copy.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  7. I have tried Gtk# by r6144 · · Score: 5, Informative
    I ported a Doom map viewer I wrote in C/GTK/Glade to Mono/Gtk#. It was about 20k bytes of C code. Converting it to C# took little effort, though being almost my first C# program I had some difficulty deciding between structs and classes for data structures (C# classes have significant overhead when there is only a few members, and C# structs doesn't seem to be as flexible as C structs). The resulting C# code was a little less verbose (about 20% fewer bytes) than glib-style C code, since I no longer need to call g_free()'s, and callbacks are more concise in C#. It worked perfectly under Mono.

    My only gripe was the lack of a decent debugger (monodbg hardly worked then), but it was quite a while ago, and I hope someone would post their experience with a newer version of the debugger.

  8. Regardless of Religion by PepeGSay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    C# and the .NET Framework *are* powerful and *do* provide things nothing else does in quite the same way. This guy shouldn't be trying to explain it to us so we can "get" the Mono project. He should be asking "How come you guys are so hung up on your religion that you question this so much?"