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AutoPackaging for Linux
Isak Savo writes "The next generation packaging format for Linux has reached 1.0. With Autopackage officially declared stable, there is now an easy way for developers to create up to date, easy installable packages. There are lots of screenshots available including a flash demo of a package installation."
No doubt lots of people will have all kinds of questions about autopackage, such as:
- "What idiots!! Another packaging format is the last thing we need!"
- "What's wrong with apt-get?"
- "Everybody should use Gentoo!"
Slashdotters are highly encouraged to read the autopackage FAQ! Our project has existed for over 2 years now, and many people have asked us those questions. In short: autopackage is not meant to replace RPM/DEB/apt-get/etc.
If you have more questions, feel free to come over at #autopackage at irc.freenode.net
We'll be glad to answer your questions
The current Linux model of distros integrating and authenticating software from upstream authors helps ensure the security of the userbase as well as providing installation ease of use. This is something we should be proud of rather than trying to imitate the technically inferior competition.
Developers want to be able to release packages that work on all the Linuxes, not just Gentoo. Not everyone wants to make the fast updates/reliability tradeoff necessary to use Gentoo.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
- Frontends to different windowing and desktop systems.
- Able to resolve dependancies even if you installed other software through the source, or with RPM or DEB
- You will be able to download one package and install it on several different distributions.
Essentially, this will be as flexible as tarballs, only they will install easilly, and have clean upgrade paths and uninstall paths. With clean dependancy resolution. It sounds too good to be true, but you can only know it if you try it.Here is the sourceforge link with some more info and downloading.
Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
Umm, that's what the Linux Standard Base is for. Blame the distro makers and packagers for not following it. After all, the LSB has been out for a *long* time...
# What's wrong with centralized repositories, apt style?
The system of attempting to package everything the user of the distro might ever want is not scalable. By not scalable, we mean the way in which packages are created and stored in a central location, usually by separate people to those who made the software in the first place. There are several problems with this approach:
# What's wrong with NeXT/MacOSX style appfolders?
One of the more memorable features of NeXT based systems like MacOS X or GNUstep is that applications do not have installers, but are contained within a single "appfolder", a special type of directory that contains everything the application needs. To install apps, you just drag them into a special Applications folder. To uninstall, drag them to the trash can. This is a beguilingly easy way of managing software, and it's a common conception that Linux should also adopt this mechanism. I'd like to explain why this isn't the approach that autopackage takes to software management.
The first reason is the lack of dependency management. Because you are simply moving folders around, there is no logic involved so you cannot check for your apps dependencies. Most operating systems are made up of many different components, that work together to make the computer work. Linux is no different, but due to the way in which it was developed, Linux has far more components and is far more "pluggable" than most other platforms. As such, the number of discrete components that must be managed is huge. Linux is different to what came before not only in this respect, but also because virtually all the components are freely available on the internet. Because of this, software often has large numbers of dependencies which must be satisfied for it to work correctly. Even simple programs often make use of many shar
It's absurd that you need to enter a root password to do something as simple as install a user-space program - and it's absurd that package mangers only support dependancy checking for stuff installed in the main system directories.
At work, the main directories (/usr, /bin, etc) can only be accessed by the IT guys; but every department has a directory ("/usr/department/engineering", for example) of that memebers of that group can install software in. We have a newer version of Perl in ours. It really sucks that package managers can't help deal with the dependancies in an environmennt like this.
Flash Demo Screenshots
I have to say this is like a godsave for linux. Most layusers will want some easy installation like this instead of using something like Yum (even if it is a GUI front-end to yum like GYUM). This is one giant step towards a viable desktop linux - and I believe that it isn't a replacement for apt/yum/[INSERT YOUR FLAVOR HERE] but uses them under the hood.
Before everyone starts bashing it and says that apt or emerge or whatever they use is the way to go, seriously think about it - one click installation, from a FRIENDLY user-interface, and easy to manage system for installing and uninstalling programs. Now if this were part of the base install on many distributions and some sort of standard was established (seriously, we need standards) I can probably convince my scared-of-Linux-because-it-is-hardcore friends to actually try Linux out.
Jesus Gentoo fanbois can be annoying. For some reason, unlike the users of every other distro, some Gentoo users think everyone would be happier with the decision they've made for themselves.
Some people like Gentoo, but some people have serious issues with it. emerge is a decent package manager, but it's attached to a distro that conservative users aren't going to touch. The more conservative distros have package managers that their users are already perfectly happy with, so it's unlikely to be used anywhere else.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
That's fine for advanced users who can handle the command line but what about the remaining 97% of the world?
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
I hate to say it, but...
It seems to me that {NeXT,Open,GNU}step-style apps are both good for developers, and great for mortal users. Drag an app (it's just a file) to your Applications folder, double-click it to run, drag it to the trash to delete. They also handle your "edge cases" (multiple installed versions) just fine.
They're actually quite a bit simpler for users because an app is just a file -- a first-class object in the system. You don't need a special program just to "install" and "uninstall" programs. You don't need ugly hacks like the "start menu" (Gnome or KDE's reimplementation of it). Users think an app should be a first-class object, and it's perfectly feasible, so as developers we should make that the case.
The autopackage FAQ has "what's wrong with NeXT/MacOSX style appfolders", but it seems to consist mostly of hand-waving and straw men. They don't seem to understand how NeXT/Mac apps work, e.g., w.r.t. linking.
Having applications (as opposed to libraries) installed outside of apt doesn't break anything as they aren't dependencies of things.
"To me it seems like anything that makes it easy for users to install random software off the internet to be a REALLY BAD THING."
This is hardly the point of the project.
The point of the project is to eliminate problems for developers in packaging their software to be able to run across distros.
The fact that it makes it easier to relieve dependency hell is a bonus for those users who want packages not included in their distro.
Anybody who says EVERYTHING they'll ever need is included in their distro is just being a troll. Because it simply is not possible that ANY distro is "finished." And a lot of people don't want to wait months until something they want shows up in a repository.
If Windows did that, everybody would still be using DOS.
Finally, the notion that it is somehow "evil" to install software from the Net is just stupid. The Net exists to distribute information - and programs are part of that.
Practically everything I use on the Windows side of my machine was downloaded off some Web site or another - and I have several gigs of stuff on my Linux side to explore yet which also has the same origin.
And I have NEVER had a spyware/virus/trojan problem from such software. (Although I have had software that simply screwed up the machine due to stupid programming.)
Users get spyware and other crap from stupid, pointless little programs offered by commercial entities because the user acts like a kid in a candy store when offered something "free". If the users really knew what freeware was about and where to get anything they need, they would be less likely to do stupid stuff like downloading a calendar program loaded with spyware.
While it is true that CORPORATE users should be restricted from downloading any damn thing they see (unless it has a productivity purpose), home users certainly should not be.
Your solution smacks of the paternalism I hate about Windows. You want your distro to control your machine just as much as Gates wants to control Windows users.
Sorry - not acceptable.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!