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Congress Ponders Opening up iTunes DRM

hammeredpeon writes "Congress is debating whether or not to require that music shops keep their DRM open for interoperability. Apple wasn't present at the hearings, but Napster's CEO was, arguing that the market should make the decision about interoperability. Considering that previous standards (FireWire/USB, Betamax/VHS) have been decided by the market, could it be that Apple isn't big enough to keep the government out of its industry?"

40 of 610 comments (clear)

  1. Are they for real? by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the article, here's a quote from the chairman of the subcommittee, Lamar Smith:

    "This interoperability issue is of concern to me since consumers who bought legal copies of music from Real could not play them on an iPod."


    <sarcasm>
    I know exactly how he feels...just the other day, I bought a game that was made for the Xbox, and found that I couldn't play it on my PS2! Can you imagine???
    </sarcasm>

    This is unbelieveable. Does Congress truly have nothing better to do?
    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:Are they for real? by truesaer · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Your analogy is all wrong. The xbox and PS2 are completely different architectures...there is no way you could make them interoperable without a complete emulation.


      On the other hand, the iPod and other players are all capable of players all the same formats. AAC is an open standard, Fairplay is not. So it is an artificial limitation that I oppose.


      What this is really quite similar to is region encoding on DVDs. 100% bullshit artificial restriction.

    2. Re:Are they for real? by sgant · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah...um...where's my fucking healthcare and retirement programs? How about have a subcommittee on wrangling these gas prices in?

      No no...steroids in baseball and making sure your MP3 player can play songs from iTunes...yep, that's MUCH more important. Oh, also there's this other idiot...oops, congressman, that wants people who violate on-air decency laws thrown in jail. Yes, actual jail time for saying "fuck" on TV or radio.

      (starts looking through his brochures on moving to New Zealand)

      --

      "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    3. Re:Are they for real? by macdaddy357 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      While I can't abide Real, everything they produce is full of spyware, I also detest any form of DRM. It disrespects customers' personal property rights after a sale.

      I advocate not buying from companies that use DRM, and have hoped to see some kind of legal action taken against them, but I don't trust Congress in this case. They are essentially the same Congress that passed the DMCA and the Sonny Bono CTEA, two horribly pro-corporate and anti-consumer laws.

      This will probably degenerate into who can offer fatter bribes: Apple or Real and Napster.

      --
      How ya like dat?
    4. Re:Are they for real? by MankyD · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because they're capable doesn't mean they should do it. That's up the manufacturer. While I would love interoperability, this isn't up to the government to decide.

      --
      -dave
      http://millionnumbers.com/ - own the number of your dreams
    5. Re:Are they for real? by AstroDrabb · · Score: 3, Insightful
      How do I know? The industry has spoken and the industry chose Apple's product instead.
      The "industry" picked the Apple iPOD because it is a very nice looking device. It doesn't haven any more capabilities than most of the competition. The "industry" did not pick Apple's restrictive DRM. The "industry" or better the consumers, do _not_ have a choice with the iPOD on what store to purchase from.

      I tell you what. Why don't we get Apple to do a little experiment? Apple can have their iTMS offer every song in either their restrictive DRM encrusted AAC format, or a non-DRM'ed MP3. See what format sells more. That would be the industry "speaking".

      People _want_ to be entertained. They want to hear music, they want to see movies. If I made a great movie but only offered it under _very_ restrictive formats, there would still be a lot of people who buy it. Not because they "support" or "accept" my restrictive format, but because they wanted to see a very good movie and be entertained. I will bet any amount of money that if I also offered my great movie under a non-restricted, non-encumbered format, that the non-restricted format would dominate sales.

      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
    6. Re:Are they for real? by Knobby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The alternative to the Fairplay encoded files sold on iTMS is the WMA encoded audio tracks sold on Napster (or Walmart and by Real). The recording industry will not allow Apple, Napster, or anyone else to sell unrescricted, unencumbered digital music, so your argument is really moot. If congress tells Apple (and the rest) to open up their DRM schemes the RIAA may pull the plug on the whole thing.

    7. Re:Are they for real? by lowrydr310 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It doesn't haven any more capabilities than most of the competition. The "industry" did not pick Apple's restrictive DRM. The "industry" or better the consumers, do _not_ have a choice with the iPOD on what store to purchase from.

      The iPod may not have more capabilities than the competition, however I doubt most people bought it just because it is nice looking. There are many other nicer looking MP3 players, the iPod just happens to have an excellent interface AND it is more heavily marketed than any other player. If you're really concerned about being able to buy your music from various online stores, you should seriously consider this before you buy your player (though I must admit that I don't recall seeing anything in the iPod marketing about not being able to play music from napster or real's stores - you'd have to read the specs of napster, real, and the iPod itself to deterime they're not compatible)

      Apple can have their iTMS offer every song in either their restrictive DRM encrusted AAC format, or a non-DRM'ed MP3. See what format sells more. That would be the industry "speaking".

      The industry is 'speaking' now with the current setup. If enough people were bothered by protected AAC, then iTunes wouldn't be so popular. I have an iPod, and I don't buy from iTunes because I have another player that doesn't support AAC. I'd rather buy an entire CD and rip the tracks to MP3 so they work with both players (with the added bonus of being able to keep the physical CD in my car).

    8. Re:Are they for real? by Total_Wimp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not necessarily true. The government decides all kinds of interoperability standards for infrastructure. TV, radio, transportation and finance all have strict interoperability requirements in order to serve the greater public good.

      The only thing I don't like about this is that they're picking on the little guy before requiring interoperability from the big boys. Why the hell doesn't the Monopoly we call Microsoft have to meet interoperability standards for their business critical Office software? By comparison, digital music is small potatoes.

      TW

    9. Re:Are they for real? by CrackedButter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I buy songs for my ipod I can use more than 1 store. Here they are: Itunes, Bleep, HMV, Virgin musicstore and amazon sells music as well. All work with no problems.

    10. Re:Are they for real? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, a practice sometimes known as "restraint of trade", artificially dividing open markets for maximum profit, at the expense of consumer choice. A practice possible only for industry cartels, who can prevent anyone from entering the market with an unconstrained product. Which is exactly where the Congress is on duty, when they're American companies, or when the American market is affected, which it is.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    11. Re:Are they for real? by Lars+T. · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This interoperability issue is of concern to me since consumers who bought legal copies of music from Real could not play them on an iMac.

      Scew you, Lamer Smith. Get Real to open up their store first before you open your potty mouth again.

      And that goes for you too.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    12. Re:Are they for real? by MerlynEmrys67 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Please god...

      Keep the government out of my healthcare and retirement...

      Yeah - gas prices are way to low... Lets make sure and tax gas consumption more, maybe getting gas up to European levels (oh about 6 bucks a gallon)... Makes me glad I have a Prius instead of one of those gas guzzling H2s - and frankly living 3 miles from work doesn't hurt either... He He He

      --
      I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
    13. Re:Are they for real? by SideshowBob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It isn't a question of DRM vs. no DRM, its a question of 2 or 3 companies wanting to force Apple to allow them to encode FairPlay DRM'ed files. E.g. buy a song from Napster that has FairPlay and is playable on your iPod.

      You won't be getting plain old MP3s from any of the commercial downloaders.

      (notwithstanding the Russians, who apparently have a loophole in their laws)

    14. Re:Are they for real? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is interoperability, the iPod supports mp3s, so just serve the music in mp3 format. ;)

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    15. Re:Are they for real? by cheesybagel · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Yeah, globalization for the corps, who get to use Indian and Chinese cheap labour, closed market for us, the consumers.

      Geez that is really fair.

    16. Re:Are they for real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "You fucking can't stand that Apple has dominated a market just by simply making the best product."

      Actually, I'd go even further than the grand-parent post did. I think the iPod domination is mostly marketing and hype. People want what is "cool", and the iPod is cool. I happen to think it's quite ugly. It's a rectangular mono-colour (typically off-white) box with two-tone LCD display. The iPod is as attractive as a music player as the standard grey-box case is to desktop PCs. That being said, I recognize that many other people think they are the most attractive thing they've ever seen. I just don't understand why.

      As far as the "best" product:

      The batteries can die after 1.5-2 years and cost $99+ to replace, plus you must send them in.

      The batteries only last about 6 hours before needing recharge whereas others can last much longer.

      Other players offer more choices in playable formats and sources.

      Other players have more and better capabilities such as high quality voice recording.

      There is a small but real chance of damaging the HD if you exercise with them too much. While this is true of any hard drive based player, Apple advertises it in use during vigorous exercise.

      They are a simple rectangular box, not ergonomically designed to fit a hand. OK, some people still find them very comfortable, but other players put more effort into being ergonomic.

      They are expensive for what you get compared to the competition.

      I was going to put links for each one, but a simple google search on "iPod problems" or specific problems above came up with so many results I think it's best to leave it up to the reader since it's so simple to find lists of problems with iPods.

      These are just a few areas where the competition is arguably better. I say arguably because these things could go on forever and I know there are people who think of them as one of their children. (I've seen a number of sites that refer to the "cult" or "church" of the iPod, which is too true.) It is not my intent to demonstrate that the iPod is not the best, only that it is reasonable to suggest they aren't the best, and objections to the iPod are not just from "dumbfucks" spouting garbage.

      As to the marketing of the iPod being a large factor, consider that the iPod has become a whole industry of accessories and services (AppleCare). Apple is hyping and milking it for all it is worth. It's not a product, it is a way of life they are selling, and people are joining the church in droves. Watch out for the Kool-aid at the iPod users group meetings.

    17. Re:Are they for real? by dvdeug · · Score: 5, Insightful

      well not really the regions on DVDs are so some poorer regions can get cheaper DVDs and not cut into the profits of places where a higher price is ok

      Why is Europe and Japan in a different region from the US? And Australia in a different region from either of them? Furthermore, Australia is in the same region as South America and Mexico, which is quite a disparity in wealth. If it'd been to offer better prices to poorer regions, the US, Japan, Western Europe and Australia would all be in the same region.

    18. Re:Are they for real? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You don't buy the content in a movie. You buy a physical copy. You own that piece of plastic.
      Oh, boy! That means I can do anything with it that I can do with any other physical object that I own, like make copies of it, right?
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    19. Re:Are they for real? by toriver · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where the movie is still playing at the box office.

      The "playing at the box office" argument for regions is a fallacy, easily disproved by the existence of region-coded "old" movies - like Spartacus and Casablanca.

      The real reason is to divide the world market between distributors.

    20. Re:Are they for real? by backlonthethird · · Score: 4, Insightful

      sigh. Every one of your bullet points stem from your (and other's) personal dislike of certain reasonable design decisions. Show me an internal battery that lasts for more than 2 years. I'd rather spend the $50 (from a third party) to replace the battery in a couple of years than spend three times that on individual AAs. Also, my ipod lasts 8-10, the new Minis last even longer.

      But the biggest problem I have it your "ergonomic" claim. That's just patently ridiculous. I want a handgun to be ergonomic, a vacuum cleaner, a ladle. These are things that I use with my hand. My iPod, on the other hand, I use in my pocket or in a case. For that, a simple rectangle with beveled edges is the most *ergonomic* design possible for my pocket.

      Don't confuse design that doesn't fit you with problematic design.

  2. openness, competition by Eric+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Considering that previous standards (Firewire/USB, Betamax/VHS) have been decided by the market,
    They were decided by the market, but there were multiple competitors making each of those choices, because the standards were available for licensing to anyone at relatively reasonable prices. To a first approximation, the Apple iTunes DRM "standard" is available for licensing to noone. Certainly it's not available to just any company that wants to publish music in the Apple format, nor to just any company that wants to build compatible players.

    If the Apple iTunes DRM scheme was available for licensing on a nondiscriminatory basic, Congress probably wouldn't even consider getting involved.

    could it be that Apple isn't big enough to keep the government out of its industry
    It's not the size of Apple that's invited this attention from Congress, it's their behavior. When Sony and Philips invented the Compact Disc, if they had been unwilling to license the patents to anyone else for manufacture of either discs or players, they would have attracted attention in the same manner. They were smart enough not to do that.
    1. Re:openness, competition by BorgCopyeditor · · Score: 4, Insightful
      How is Apple's own DRM method (i.e., the thing that allows iTunes Music Store to exist) like the patent for CDs? Not at all, that's how. It's not a standard. No one is required to use it.

      Perhaps next you'll tell us why it is only right for the Congress to force Google to allow ads to appear on their site the revenue for which goes to competing search engines. After all, they're as much a "standard" by your definition as iTunes DRM.

      --
      Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
    2. Re:openness, competition by agm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does this not parallel the behaviour of Microsoft? When will the government step in in a similar fashion and force Microsoft to open up SMB, .doc, .xls protocols/formats etc. If interoperability is the governments desire, then surely forcing MS's hand makes sense?

    3. Re:openness, competition by sg3000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > It's not the size of Apple that's invited this attention from
      > Congress, it's their behavior

      Of course, some Republicans were aghast at the Department of Justice looking into Microsoft illegally abusing its monopoly. So much so, that all it required was for Microsoft to hire Bush advisor and Christian Coalition leader Ralph Reed as a lobbyist, and to send a few million dollars Bush's way, and the DOJ dropped the case. Done. That obvious case was where Microsoft lied throughout the trial, had more smoking guns an Indiana Jones movie, and showed nothing but contempt for the judge and the rulings. No muss no fuss.

      But now, Congress thinks it's important to go after Apple, who is just starting off in the market. They don't have a monopoly, and their success is far from assured. They are nowhere near the place in digital music that Microsoft is in for operatings systems and Microsoft Office.

      If you don't like Apple's business model. Fine. Don't buy their stuff. But until Apple has been sued and found to (1) have a legal monopoly in terms of digital music, and (2) found to be illegally abusing their monopoly (like you if your iPod stops working if it finds you're not using their word processor Pages), Congress should stay away from nationalizing iTunes or iPods.

      Or, if they can't keep themselves away, they should at least stop calling whatever we have in the U.S. a democracy and capitalism.

      --
      Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
    4. Re:openness, competition by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple does not prevent competitor's music from playing on the iPod, nor does it prevent its iTunes store music from playing elsewhere (albiet the limitation is that it has to be burned to a CD before it can be ripped back to an MP3.) Since the DRM is put there to protect the RIAA's interests, Apple has a legitimate argument for protecting the encryption. For example, they could argue that opening such DRM endangered their business agreement with the music industry and pass the buck to them. Then it's Napster vs. the music industry, and we all know how that turns out.

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
    5. Re:openness, competition by chmilar · · Score: 5, Insightful
      nobody but Apple can legally sell music for it

      I buy songs from eMusic.com for my iPod. eMusic sells unencumbered MP3 tracks.

      The other online music stores could also be 100% compatible with the iPod, by selling unencumbered MP3 tracks.

      --
      Reading Slashdot is ruining my spelling and grammar.
    6. Re:openness, competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Jesus. Can we please cut out the one-company Apple-is-a-monopoly bullshit?

      Everybody loves car analogies, so here's one. Ford makes the Mustang. It can drive on many roads, using fuel from many gas stations. Lots of different companies make accessories for it. But let's say Ford makes a particular accessory that only works with the Mustang. Are they now a monopoly because of this? What a bunch of crap.

      For those who are really slow, it works like this. Apple makes the iPod. It can play many different songs in many different formats. Lots of companies make accessories for it. Apple happens to sell a particular type of music file that only works with the iPod. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM A MONOPOLY.

      Can you buy music elsewhere that works with the iPod? Check. Can you buy other players that work with other music? Check. Can you buy cool accessories for those other players? Check. If you want music for your iPod, are you locked into Apple's store? Nope.

      Let's see, with the Mustang... You can buy fuel from many places that works with the Mustang, check. You can buy other cars that work with other types of fuel, check. You can buy cool accessories for other cars, check. If you want fuel or accessories for your Mustang, you aren't locked into Ford stuff.

      Conclusion: you hate Apple almost as much as you hate thinking rationally.

  3. Re:Who's Behind The Scenes On This One? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Probably. That's how almost anything gets introduced to Congress. We have the best government money can buy.

    As Winston Churchill said in 1947, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time.

  4. Emerging market should be decided by the market by amichalo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a no-brainer

    The digital music market is just emerging - why legislate a standard? Who knows what the market will look like ten years from now (arguably twice as long as the market as even existed)?

    In addition, this is a global market issue. How would their legislation be inforced globally?

    I live in the Fort Worth/Dallas Metroplex where congress, through the Wright Amendment, put restrictions on South West Airlines so it cannot fly directly to DFW International unless the flight originates from within Texas or a bordering state. This type of legislation is (IMHO) rediculous and flies in the face of economic forces.

    To return to topic, the CEO of Napster has this one right, there is no need to legislate a standard, open or otherwise. The market will determine it.

    Fast forward X years when a monopoly exists (today there are at lease two clear choices for DRM, Fairplay and WMA, neither of which is a monopoly). In the even of an abusive monopoly, then, and only then, should the government be involved under the flag of protecting the rights of Her citizens.

    --
    I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
  5. Betamax/VHS, USB/Firewire are bad analogies by Jagasian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Betamax/VHS, USB/Firewire are bad analogies because they are open standards that can be hacked to heaven and back without legal ramifications. Hacking Apple's DRM on the other hand, for sake of interoperability, has ramifications due to the DMCA.

    Even if the DMCA technically allows exceptions for circumventing copy-protection for the sake of interoperability, a developer can still bet that they will end up in court if they tried because the DMCA places an extra burden on developers that does not exist with regards to hacking Betamax, VHS, USB, or Firewire. With hacking Apple's DRM, the developer must prove (most likely in court) that the application is only for interoperability, yet does not defeat copy protection... while hacking, say USB to interop with firewire, requires no such proof.

    DeCSS is case in point. It is required to play DVDs with an open source player, yet it can be used for movie piracy.

  6. A single, mandated DRM standard is a great idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...because you only have to crack it once!

  7. Short-Sighted by Nutsquasher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the music/music-player industry wishes to create interoperability, it should be done by the free markets, not by Congress. Betamax was a closed standard, so companies unified and created VHS, essentially killing off Sony's market dominance in the home market (betamax remained very successful for years in the movie/tv/commercial production world for quite some time).

    Forcing Apple to open up its trade secrets/patents essentially gives the message to companies that if you create a highly successful product that lots of people like, we're going to do as we please with it. This will deter entrepreneurs/investors from creating/funding new technologies, and will essentially shoot our country in the foot.

    Another reason why government should stay out of the free markets. Micro-management never works, especially if it's not even the business your in.

  8. Mix, Burn, Rip by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Christ, Apple told the whole world how to break iTunes DRM in their old advertising campaign. You just need to shift it by one word...

    Yeh, yeh, you may lose some quality, but you already lost some buying it from iTMS or Napster instead of ripping the CD on your own, and you're playing it in your iPod or Rio while you're driving or walking or ... whatever you're doing, you're not in an environment where you're going to notice the loss from ONE burn/rip cycle. Sheesh...

    This whole thing is SUCH a goddamn non-issue.

  9. Microsoft won't let that happen. by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For every proprietary format that Apple has, Microsoft has ten. If Apple is forced to open up it's DRM, why then shouldn't Microsoft have to open up the file formats for Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc.? And let's not forget the Windows Media file formats.

    If Congress wants to talk about outlawing all proprietary formats, then fine, let's have that debate. If it wants to pick on one particular company that's simply selling copies of music in a format that works on the systems it sells, it should think again because it's standing on a very slippery slope.

  10. Who created this problem in the first place? by Experiment+626 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The main reason for the interoperability problems in the first place is Congress's own legislation, the DMCA. Without that, there would be many more projects like Hymn that open up DRM'ed formats and promote interoperability. Now Congress is trying to cure one of the symptoms of its previous ill-conceived legislation with... more legislation.

  11. Re:un-fucking-believable by rpozz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple probably haven't paid their full subscription to congress. A few donations from them and this will all go away.

  12. Re:Who's Behind The Scenes On This One? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The US is a constitutional republic, which is in a sense a restricted form of democracy. You wouldn't want a direct democracy in a country the size of the US. As Benjamin Franklin observed, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

  13. Re:Since when is proprietary DRM tolerated? by kollivier · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'm sure someone will tell me that the market should decide. Fair enough, but funny how that reasoning is contingent upon the company being discussed.

    Regardless of market share, Apple does not behave like Microsoft at all. While Apple has popular market share for iPod, it is not using that market share to *exclude* competitors. For example, it doesn't attempt to force vendors who want to sell iPods to exclude other players from the market, or threaten retribution to those companies who sell competing products. It also doesn't say that if you sell iPods you must also put Macs on your shelves, etc.

    Microsoft, on the other hand, has done pretty much all of these things at one point or another in their history. Consider their OEM agreements with vendors forbidding them to sell computers with other OSes. Consider their attempt to drive Netscape out of business by giving away IE and "integrating it with the OS" (and letting the product stagnate as soon as the competition disappeared). These acts show a company trying to take choice and competition OUT of the market, not providing a BETTER choice. And that's the difference.

  14. They owe ME by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fine, as long as the entertainment industry and "artists" shut the fuck up when it comes time for their works to be no longer covered by copyright.

    That means we "Consumers" will repeal all of the paid for legislation that allows "artists" and studios to steal from the public domain.

    14 years was the original length of copyright then society owns the the work.

    It's the artists and studios who are on a "free ride", who have been raping and pillaging the public domain. It's they that benefit from a society that enables them to create their works. But then the greedy fuckers want to change the rules once it comes time to live up to their end of the deal.

    When THEY shut the fuck up THEN I'll shut the fuck up.