Indian Call Center Employees Hack US Bank Accounts

The Ascended One writes "Call center employees working for an Indian software company, MSource, supposedly used confidential client information to transfer client funds to themselves. The alleged perpetrators used the personal information of four NY-based clients to transfer ~$350,000 (Rs. 1.5 crores) in their names, a large sum in Indian currency. They were caught after the victims alerted the bank officials in the US, who then traced the crime to the Indian city of Pune. While the name of the bank has not been revealed, the article indicates that the bank in question is Citibank."

Comments

Easier to track

[Odo]

A lot of posts here will no doubt be saying something along the lines "see, this is what happens when you outsource". Well, think about it from an investigator's point of view. If money was transferred illegitimately from a US customer to somewhere in the US, it would be much harder to figure out what was going on than if it was being sent to India. By outsourcing the call center to India, it has made the origin of this sort of fraud much easier to detect.

I'm a system administrator and most of my customers are in the UK. So when I'm investigating an incident on our servers, and the logs show some activity from Brazil, it makes my job a lot easier.

Re:Easier to track

[mister_jpeg]

yeah! and another good thing about outsourcing is that the dollar goes so much further in countries like India, so the criminals need to steal less! Why, I bet if Citibank hadn't outsourced that call center and the theft had occured in New York or somewhere, it woulda been a couple million!

</idiot mode>

Re:Easier to track

[Alioth]

Extradition, even when there are treaties in place, is relatively rare. It is usually reserved for the most serious crimes, like first-degree murder.

Don't forget music piracy!

Re:Easier to track

[TTL0]

I work in InfoSec and did a consulting project for a company that sells software (for clearing checks) to a lot of major banks. I was amazed how insecure banks realy are ! however the banks rely on thier ability to audit all transactions more than secure policys and procedures. So to sum up, it is easy to steal from banks it is hard not to get caught.

Re:Easier to track

[quarkscat]

I totally agree with your argument, but I would
take it a couple of steps further. Since $1 USD
goes so much further in India, instead of just
off-shore out-sourcing the "worker-bee" jobs there,
we really should be moving the corporate officers
and board of directors jobs there.

Just think, instead of a "Bernie Ebbers" who cooks
the books to the tune of $11 Billion USD in order
to keep that quarterly profit/quarterly bonus pyramid
scheme going at MCI/WorldCom, or a "Fiorina" that
has to be bribed $45 Million USD to leave HP,
the major shareholders could be looking at an
immediate 80% cut in pay and bonuses to their
corporate leadership by moving those jobs off-shore.

It isn't as if these US corporations wouldn't
directly benefit from hiring the top 1% of
Indian corporate officers, instead of the ethically
challenged USA-trained MBAs that we have now.

Re:Easier to track

[AviLazar]

How is this easier? Money transferred from one bank account to another bank account is more easily traced within US. Our banks must follow strict guidelines, banks in other countries many nto have those same guidelines. If they transfered this money to say a Swiss bank account that didn't have any personal information attached to it - the police may never have caught a person. They might have been able to get to the account, and retrieve the money, butgettin a persons private info is much harder.

So when your logs show activity in Brazil, how is this easier then if your logs show activity in Maine?

Attention Citibank Customer

[DarkHelmet]

Attention Citibank Customer!

We are sorry to inform you, but your account information has fallen into the hands of employees at an Indian Call center we do work with. Unfortunately, your account may be compromised.

To protect your account, please log into our panel using the link below to change your username and password:

http://www.citibank.com/

Thank you for choosing Citi.

Re:Attention Citibank Customer

[roman_mir]

Attention Citibank Customer!

We are sorry to inform you, but your account information has fallen into the hands of employees at an Indian Call center we do work with. Unfortunately, your account may be compromised.

To get further information about protecting your account, please contact our Indian Call Center.

http://www.citibank.com/

Thank you for choosing Citi.

Indian, Native American, Ukrainian, Nigerian

[Dancin_Santa]

It doesn't matter where people are located. What matters is that you have trustworthy people handling your business. And, you know what? Untrustworthy people are everywhere.

I, for one, do not buy into this Lou Dobbs racist/nationalist claptrap that says that we can't trust foreigners. I'm one of the biggest foreigners around, if you consider all the places I have to travel to that I'm not actually a citizen of.

Hey, bad people are in India. And in the U.S. And in Europe. And in Asia. Oh my god! They are everywhere!

Luckily, the bad people are outnumbered by the good. I can just take a look at my lists and figure that one out.

Re:Indian, Native American, Ukrainian, Nigerian

[JaredOfEuropa]

It doesn't matter where people are located. What matters is that you have trustworthy people handling your business. And, you know what? Untrustworthy people are everywhere.

If your employees are proud to be part of the firm, and if you treat them with respect and pay a decent wage, they are less likely to turn to fraud. However, if you treat them like shit and pay peanuts, they are more likely to become disgruntled and commit fraud or (digital) vandalism. Yes, just like in 'Office space'.

The current relentless drive to reduce employee costs to a minimum does not help in that respect, in any country. From what I understand, Indians are currently happy with their current wages (and often very odd working hours). But what will happen when the squeeze from even cheaper Chinese workers is on?

Re:Indian, Native American, Ukrainian, Nigerian

[WIAKywbfatw]

On the other hand, you don't have to be poor to be so consumed by greed that you're willing to steal or commit fraud to further line your pockets. Just look at Enron, Worldcom, etc if you want proof of that.

Re:Indian, Native American, Ukrainian, Nigerian

[Alioth]

I'm one of the biggest foreigners around...

May I suggest you lay off the Big Macs and Whoppers for a while then?

Re:Indian, Native American, Ukrainian, Nigerian

[testadicazzo]

On the other hand, you don't have to be poor to be so consumed by greed that you're willing to steal or commit fraud to further line your pockets. Just look at Enron, Worldcom, etc if you want proof of that.

Too true. There are two problems to consider. Rampant poverty will increase crime. Especially in the event where labor is being done, but the laborers are not reaping the rewards of their labor. So that's one contributing factor, in the U.S. as well as abroad.

A second contributing factor is the culture of greed that dominates in the modern world. Wealth without labor is the new goal. One of the most elequent discussions of this I have seen was by harvey pekar, in an issue of American Splendor (sorry, don't remember what issue). But we have a culture (which we are aggresively exporting) which places more importance on the possession of wealth than on honesty, integrity, or a strong work ethic.

I'm hoping that this is actually changing, that the Bernard Ebbers, the Dick Cheneys, the Kenneth Lays and Darrel McBride's become outcasts and pariahs, shunned and hated enough by society at large that people feel a strong enough social pressure to mitigate their greediest instincts.

not hacking

[romit_icarus]

I wonder if this can be called hacking, looks more like a combination of poor process and security management on the part of Citi (if it is indeed Citi). Companies in the US should be wary of the extent of employee churn that happens in BPO firms in India. I'm in India, and I often get to hear of ex-employees stealing databases when they leave...

Odd that this article is here

[jago25_98]

When I take credit card info over the phone I could do just the same.

The only slight difference is that it's worth more over there.

So I find it odd that this is considered different.

Re:Not to be a troll but..

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

So they should start aborting outsourcing attempts because the US doesn't have data privacy laws?

Rather than phoning up your banks and finding out where your information is ending up, which can be a tedious process, shouldn't you be phoning up your congress representatives and asking them to enact laws which provide for your privacy?

Citibank Outsourcing

[Coward the Anonymous]

Citicards, the Credit card division of Citibank, got a new CIO several months ago. Mitchell Habib. He came from GE Medical. Before leaving there, he outsourced about 75% of their IT staff to India. He's currently doing the same at Citi. I worked there as a contractor. Two other contractors on the team and I were unable to get our contracts renewed because it came down from on high that all new contracts had to go thru TCS, Tata Consulting Services. They are the Indian outsourcing company that he used in the past. I recently went back to visit some friends and met my replacement. A nice young Indian guy making a third to a quarter of what I made there.

From what I understand, the standard rate for calculating your budget for contract work went from $70/hr to $22/hr. Of course, I believe they charge around $40/hr for their workers in the states.

Can't compete with that.

Here are some links about Mitchell Habib and TCS:

http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/apr/03tcs.htm?zcc =rl

http://www.tcs.com/0_media_room/releases/200204apr /20020411_ge_medical.htm

It's not that simple...

[ImaLamer]

I just have to say that this is a bigger problem than a simple "I told you so".

When you outsource certain operations you are giving people who have no connection with your customers their private information. Banking account numbers? Some people still don't use online banking because it scares them and we don't see this as a huge liability?

Really, what if a few thousand credit card and bank account numbers got into the hands of suspected terrorists? If they made a one time shot at getting items to fence or cash withdraws (wire transfers) and split, they suddenly have resources that was taken right from the American people.

I'm by no means saying that you should be suspect of *any* foreign person or enterprise. I'm thinking of the type of people who *might* get their hands on my/our information. What good is it to give to the people like EPIC when we give our information to people we can't necessarily track down? Can anyone guarantee that we will be able to bring someone to justice, under our laws (and equally for their benefit the Constitution)? I've worked on the phone making sales, and the problem we had was we were banned from taking credit cards because a few people screwed it up for everyone.

Of course, if someone wants the information they can get it. It just makes me wonder why we give our sensitive information to a foreigner when we need parts for our Dell (and by extension everyone else I don't care to list).

Re:It's not that simple...

[Dr. Evil]

I for one am glad of the security I can place in trusting my fellow national. Ever since foreigners started bombing federal buildings, sending bombs to universities, sniping people randomly in Washington, and god knows what else, it's good to know that we can draw a clear line between "us" and "them"

Re:It's not that simple...

[way2trivial]

1st of all, Osama and crew are funded just fine, they don't need your piddly thousands per account scam to pay for their efforts...

if you DON'T outsource- aren't you still giving people who have no connection with your customers their private information?

C'mon, it doesn't matter if the call center is in bangalore or in tampa bay, what matters is the legal hoops required to get it back/make reparations...

remember the afghanni woman who had been hired as a medical transcriptionist but not paid for her work? and threatened to make US citizens medical records public? she wasn't breaking any afghanni law, and she had NO OTHER RECOURSE for recompse for her labors.. (and good for her) the only real bonuses to outsourcing can be mitigated by differing laws, and the ability to 'seek damages' internationally...

These kinds of (employee, white collar) thefts occur.
The fact that it was overseas should not make it /. newsworthy unless there was some amusing or technical quirk in international law that made it newsworthy.. I see nothing however, in the headline, any different than a NY times biz blurb about any other fradulent scheme at a major us corp..

Re:It's not that simple...

[Mattintosh]

You missed the point. Let me help you out a bit.

Main Entry: sarcasm
Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm
synonym see WIT

All the crimes he mentioned were done by American citizens. Bombing federal buildings? McVeigh. Mailing bombs to universities? Kaczynski. Sniping people in Washington DC? Malvo. At least two of them thought they were fighting for their country, which they (somewhat correctly) saw as having been overrun by greedy corporate/big government idiots. I'm pretty sure Malvo was just getting a kick out of killing people.

In light of these examples, the "War on Terror" looks like a silly, yet all-too-serious, grab for power. In other words, I think you're preaching to the choir.

Re:It's not that simple...

[Dun Malg]

McVeigh WAS a hero/patriot in the old school sense.

Yes, because Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, et al set off carts full of blasting powder in front of crowded Offices of the Crown, randomly killing people, and this is how the US won the war of independence.

Not that killing children in daycare is a good thing. But why were people in a federal building hiding behind children anyway? They know wackos attack federal people from time to time

WTF are you talking about? Name one attack on a Federal building prior to (or after!) McVeigh. They weren't "hiding behind children" because they had no idea there was anyone to hide from.

Bet some government wonk was dumb enough to beleive that nobody would ever think of attacking them with children as a flesh shield.

Bet it never occured to anyone that some dumbass would think it worthwhile to set off a bomb in front of a building full of boring, miscellaneous government drones smack dab in the middle of Dullsville. Really, what kind of tard do you have to be to pick such a stupid target? If he wanted a symbolic hit against the FBI or BATF, he should have picked a FBI or BATF field office, instead of a building with mostly Social Security and postal service workers.

McVeigh did some fucked up shit, but I still cannot help but feel some respect for having the balls to do what he did.

I have trouble respecting mental midgets with delusions of grandeur simply because they fancy themselves super-patriots. A man walking down the street randomly cutting of people's heads while shouting "no taxation without representation" is no patriot in my book either. I might agree with the premise McVeigh started from, but I'd have to give him a big fat zero for his chosen conclusion. Fuck McVeigh. Fuck him twice. He was a typical macho failed-to-get-into-Ranger-school-so-he-left-the-Ar my dumbfuck that gave other Desert Storm vets like me a bad name for a long time.

If more Americans had the nuts to take their government to task for oppressive things they have done to this great country, things wouldn't be as shitty and corp-controlled as they are.

Yes, but blowing one another up is not going to get the feds off our back. I guarantee that no amount of purely symbolic random bombing is going result in anything more than further oppression.

But here I am posting anonymously because I am afraid of what the government might do to me for speaking outside of the "official truth".

Talk about delusions of grandeur. The government doesn't care about some guy on a message board spouting off about patriotism. Really, you sound like an actual tin-foil hatter who thinks the government is trying to read his thoughts. The flaw in that line of reasoning is the presumption that the feds even give a fuck about a a nobody like you (or me, for that matter). They don't care about people like us! Get over yourself!

Re:Begin the racist rants

[WIAKywbfatw]

I don't think it's racist per se to point out that the scammers were Indian - because they were, and that's not going to change - but it would be racist to extrapolate from that that Indians in general can't be trusted because of the actions of one or two people.

It's all relative...

[otter42]

The alleged perpetrators used the personal information of four NY-based clients to transfer ~$350,000 (Rs. 1.5 crores) in their names, a large sum in Indian currency.

I would have thought $350,000 is a large sum in ANY currency.

Brother, can you spare $350K?

Re:crores

[romit_icarus]

It's just a different way of grouping of decimal places. In India it's common to have them group two decimal places instead of three. Get a better description here: http://www.answers.com/topic/indian-numbering-syst em Globalisation is however making indians, albeit reluctantly, shift to the million/billion system, but it'll take time...

I'm surprised this does not happen more often.

[neckdeepinspecialsau]

I once called a creditor of mine and was obviously routed to an overseas call center. The gentleman on the other end of the phone after asking me my issue asked me my social security number. I was hesitant to give it away to a guy in india making $.50 an hour but figured I was being paranoid. I gave him the number and he said please hold. The next thing I knew he put me on hold and I was transferred to another service representative (in the us) who also asked for my social security number. Well needless to say I let them have it basically "Why would they ask me for my social security number to transfer me?" I started checking my credit report and stopped doing business with the bank. Nothing came of it and I was being paranoid but the reality is this sort of thing can happen anywhere. At a restaurant you give the server your card. Most servers make low wages and they take your card off to the back room usually.

So..

[ASkGNet]

I really should update my account details in Citibank, as per the email that I got awhile ago.

They said my monies will be stoeled if I don't

Re:crores

[kaalamaadan]

The system is the, afaik, British/European.

The Least significant 3 digits are grouped together, then it is in groups of two digits each.

For example, 3000000 in American notation is: 3,000,000 [3 million] and in the Indian system is 30,00,000 [30 lakhs].

Also, the commonly used powers of 10 include:

1 lakh - 1/10ths of a million

and

1 crore - 10 millions.

Or interfering with the democratic process

[Moderation abuser]

Piracy in the UK:

Unlimited fine and 10 years in prison.

Vote rigging in the UK:

Unlimited fine and 2 years in prison...

e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4 406575.stm

Re:Or interfering with the democratic process

[badfish99]

Mind you, piracy in the UK had the death penalty as recently as 1998, although it was abolished for murder in 1969. See History of Capital Punishment

What's wrong with the heart of Citibank? Read on

[Anonymous Coward]

Although this particular sort of naive fraud is unlikely to repeated for a while at Citibank, Citibank has a history of association with much more sophisticated and serious fraudulent activity. I refer to Citibank's crucial role in suggesting, creating, structuring, and maintaining the complex banking and hedging schemes for both Enron and WorldCom. Forget the Enron and WorldCom directors for a moment. The Citibank directors who were involved should be held accountable for their contribution to the frauds and yet they have all somehow managed to evade proper censure; indeed they still hold company office - that's absolutely not right. The SEC and AG have done nothing with any of them. Let's avoid using Citibank and let's see why they they get away with their activities...

Some background on Citibank's unresolved history of association with serious fraud:

here
and
here

Outsourcing IS part of the problem

[pandrijeczko]

$350,000 is a menial sum compared to some of the huge fraud that happens in the Western World (just look at Worldcom as an example).

However, outsourcing to people in less developed parts of the world means that much smaller (and presumably more "readily available") sums of money can provide them with a very good living still & make committing fraud worthwhile in the firstplace.

There are no intended racial overtones in these comments, just observations, and quite frankly it's the mega-corporations I laugh at now that they will start to get their "just desserts" for messing up the economies and lives of so many people for the sake of a few bucks.

Let's face it, if you're a Citibank (if that's who it is) customer that got ripped off by this, you'll get your money back anyway because it's obviously a security issue with the bank themselves, not the customer's fault.

I say good luck to the Indian call centre workers - they're being used as the 21st century equivalent of sweatshop labourers anyway so they should grab what they can before they demand too high wages and they themselves get dumped by the corporations like a lot of the rest of us have.

[INSERT LOUD SCORNING "HA! HA!" HERE]

The real Horror in all of this. - When will it end

[Ada_Rules]

I think most people here are really missing the point of this story. Up until now, the only jobs that were being outsourced to India were call centers, software engineers and a few other white collar jobs.

With this event, something much more serious has taken place. We have begun to outsource criminal activity. Oh the horror. What about the children of the criminals in the US? Where will they get their crack money?

This is very serious. We need to act now to prevent tossing away the lives of those in the US who have worked sometimes for their entire lives committing crime. While it might be possible for an engineer or call center employee to be retrained for a new job, we have lots of experience that says we are not very good at retraining out crimininals. After all, there are only so many CEO positions available in the US.

Nail on the head!

[ImaLamer]

What connection do local call centres have with a banks customers that people who live further don't? ...

it's cheaper than giving it to a `fellow American`. I should have thought that were obvious.


A Ha, and you've discovered my complaint. We get paid a lot more, we have less motivation to steal. We depend on that job, we have built a life around it. The paychecks are okay, so the risk to benefit ratio tells me not to steal from customers. On top of that, they are fellow countrymen.

However, in India it is a different story (don't flame, just an example).

The Indian worker is getting paid a fraction of what you've just spent. I sure hope there was no contempt in your voice - contempt breeds contempt. The tech looks at his check and sees a nice amount of money but he sees another option. Really, if he loses this job there will be another American company who will come around (best part is, they don't talk to each other). We've created the economic situation where it makes sense to work for a few weeks and rip a few hundred people off. An organized effort could be dangerous.

No matter... bring the work home and solve the whole problem that way.

Re:Nail on the head!

[Elminst]

The Indian worker is getting paid a fraction of what you've just spent.

And here is the fallacy in your argument.
That indian tech may be getting a fraction of what YOU make per year. But, he is getting MANY TIMES as much as as the average Indian worker. Wealth is RELATIVE to your PEERS. Read any news story on outsourced workers and you see that they have some of the best living and working conditions in their country. Some even better than a lot of American workers.
And who says that Indian guy doesn't depend on his job? Why couldn't he have built a life around it? Just because they make fewer "American" dollars than you do, doesn't mean they're poor or any less deserving of what they have.

Everything is cheaper over there. The cost of living is way lower. This is why companies move their business there. They can pay him half what you make, and he still makes 3x as much as the next INDIAN worker.

Stop making the same WRONG argument that less american $$ = less skilled or less dedicated to one's job.

There was more contempt in your post than in its parent. You could do the SAME crime working as a first level hell-desk worker in the states. But I guess that would be okay because you "brought that work home."

Re:Nail on the head!

[Samrobb]

And here is the fallacy in your argument.
That indian tech may be getting a fraction of what YOU make per year. But, he is getting MANY TIMES as much as as the average Indian worker.

And here's the fallacy in your argument - that same difference in pay scale/cost of living means that the $350K US that they made off with was worth a whole heck of a lot more to them than it would be to you.

Would I risk something like this for 10 years' salary? Nope.

Would I risk something like this for 50 years' salary? I'd like to think no, but I've never been tempted like this...

Would I risk something like this for for more money than I could otherwise reasonably expect to earn in my lifetime? Maybe. Imagine yourself in a situation where a few minutes effort would net you $10 million of someone else's money. Can you be sure that you wouldn't consider that at all tempting?

I'm not sure where these guys ended up on that scale, but I suspect that you're still talking about enough money to live comfortably for 20-30 years. The cynical part of me says that their real problem was that they didn't steal enough. If it had been a few hundred million, then they wouldn't be thieves, just international market speculators...

Re:Nail on the head!

[Austerity Empowers]

The problem with your argument is that companies do not move their businesses over there at all, they just hire employees at arms length and pay them at cut rate, but still keep their businesses in the US. The OWNERS and EXECUTIVES don't want to go to India, it sucks there, and can be dangerous. It's far away from their family, friends, banks, wall street, etc. To them India is a cheap people farm. They're not investing in India, they're not trying to build it up as an industrial or business superpower, they're just using it and if it gets expensive they'll find another impovrished country to bully. Meanwhile jobs are taken away from American workers in their own country. The same country whose taxes fund a legal system, military and police force which allows them to retain their money (be it real estate, investments or liquid cash). The same country were the average guy will have to go fight in a war to protect their business interests at pretty much their own whim. In some of the countries they are using for cheap labor, each executive, owner or investment company has enough in LIQUID cash to feed a city for years, don't tell me that their governments would try hard to find someone who in fact stole their money should it have been placed overseas. This person only got caught because he stole so little and stole from an American bank. If it was the First Bank of Nowhere India, who knows what would have happened. No I don't give a rats ass about the average Indian, but unless India wants to pledge itself as a commonwealth of the US I don't have to. They're on their own. In my opinion US companies should not be allowed to use their labor. Those companies need to stand on their own, and sell their services (properly tariffed) to US companies. The government could then control the cost of living in the US with respect to other places and reduce it slowly, which I think is probably necessary. Watching so much of this contries technical experience get outsourced only makes me wonder if we'll be able to do anything locally in the US in 20 years except make bad music and TV and change bedpans.

Re:Sigh....

[Secrity]

"This brings into issue all the medical, supposidly confidental, data that gets sent to India for transscribing. I hope companies from around the world take a look at the amount of personal information they are sending to around the world with out thought of who might be watching it.

Corporations as a whole do not care at all about the personal data that they send anywhere; the data is simply a commodity. To companies that are used to dealing with large amounts of commodities (including personal information), the loss or compromise of a certain percentage of the commodity is tolerated and expected. For corporations it is cheaper to pay for the loss than it is to prevent the loss.

Dobbs racist? Please stop irrational accusations

[Augusto]

Whatever you tink about Lou Dobbs, it's very irresponsible to just dismiss him as a racist.

Even "nationalist" is nonsense, he's merely pointing out one of the problems with unresitriced and unbalanced "unfair" trade. Now, you could argue this is a good thing, and we could point out the problems and have a discussion. But by labeling him a racist, the only thing you're trying to do is to "shut down" any arguments by coming up with ridiculous ad hominem attacks.

I'm an immigrant to this country, and I'm not a fan of outsourcing. I'm all for other immigrants from all over the world to continue coming here and contributing their talents to our local economies, but there is a problem when now people don't even want to become US residents, because they jobs are being drained away from here. We're about to face a serious crisis, when our technological workforce is being decimated by these companies. And there's nothing racist in pointing that out, nothing.

As for security, I don't think most if any people here are saying that a particular nationality is less trustworthy. But you'd be a fool if you don't recognize that some of the safety mechanism we enjoy in this country, are not as robust or even exist in other parts of the less developed world. As we deal with the poorest of nations, with our sensitive data, we have to be *extremely* careful. Already, there have been incidents of bribing by local crime syndicates in some of these countries to obtain data to steal identities. Can that happen in the US? Of course! But the question is, where is it more likely, and what are the protections we need to employ in these situations.

There's a rich discussion to be had on this topic, but please, try to come up with something better than "they're racist".