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Firefox and Opera Fail the Acid2 Test

naylor83 writes "Four weeks ago, Opera's CTO Håkan Lie put forward the Acid2 challenge to the IE developers at Microsoft. The Web Standards Project has now silently published the promised browser test. Somewhat surprisingly, both Opera and Firefox fail to correctly render the test page. Obviously though, they're no where near as lousy as Internet Explorer. More screenshots are available at my blog, as well as at other people's."

15 of 281 comments (clear)

  1. So nothing can display it correctly? by Spudley · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Right. So none of the browsers tested can display the test page correctly? And they're the best, most compliant browsers available?

    And they've had how long to get it right?

    In that case, it would seem to me that it is the standard that is broken, if it's really that difficult to render a page with a cascading style sheet.

    --
    (Spudley Strikes Again!)
    1. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think the standard's broken persay

      The term is per se. It's Latin.

      CSS 2 isn't ahead of it's time and it isn't particularly difficult to implement. The trouble is that as long as web developers don't use any of it's more esoteric features, bugs and corner cases will continue to crop up in browsers. And as long as the most popular web browser, Internet Explorer, fails to implement half of CSS 2, web developers will refrain from using most of CSS 2 - thus making finding bugs in the more advanced bit slow going.

      Yes, you heard me right, I'm blaming legitimate bugs in Firefox on Microsoft. And I'm not trolling, I actually happen to believe it's true.

    2. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by ciroknight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ah myapologies grammer nazi/troll. I'm quite a bit sick and I like to stay indoors and argue with /.ers when I'm under the weather.

      CSS2 is ahead of its time. It uses the Document Object Model to draw, color, and arrange items in a way agnostic to implementation, and agnostic to content. Sure, we already have programs capable of drawing, coloring and arranging items in a document; each of them being tied inextricably to their creation-engine (Microsoft Word and Word documents, for example). Not only that, the current existant technology to do this isn't even fully forward compatible among versions (Word 7 and XP for example), and other implementations are very lack luster (though I'll hand it to PDF for being pretty good, even if the software to use PDF (read AND write) is very expensive). CSS2 is the Free Standard to do all of this, and more.

      I believe a browser should be smart enough to withstand whatever's thrown at it, and if it recieves errored data, to notify the user as such, and move on. That being said, I believe as it may be Internet Explorer's fault for not implementing more than half of the standard, it is also our fault for not implementing all of the features. As Microsoft does have more of the market share, that shouldn't stop people from creating pages that don't work with Internet Explorer; they should be encouraged to do so, so that Internet Explorer would continue to evolve. If it was anyone's "fault" for the more "esoteric features" (CSS positioning as esoteric???? come on..) not being implemented in Internet Explorer, it's the Web Developers for not using the standards, and making Internet Explorer take heed. Microsoft may be huge, and gots lots of money, but they can't stop millions of web developers.

      Face it. We dropped the ball. Open Source developers (hell, even Opera developers) recognized this, and promised to web developers a sanctuary where more of the standards are usable. As such, web developers (and users) are flocking to Firefox. And now that Internet Explorer is back in the game, things will get interesting. No matter which browser comes out of this new broswer war on top, we win.

      --
      "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
    3. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Web standards over the last several years have taken a course of not so much big standards but huge numbers of standards.

      Well you can either have a small number of big specifications, a large number of small specifications, reduced functionality, or unspecified, proprietary behaviour. Which would you prefer?

      I prefer a large number of small specifications - it's easier to implement things fully; easier to determine whether something is compliant or not; easier to leave out the stuff you don't need and so on.

    4. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by wsapplegate · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > I'll hand it to PDF for being pretty good, even if the software to use PDF (read AND write) is very expensive

      On what planet, exactly, is writing PDFs expensive ? I manage to do this for free all the time with a variety of software packages. I thought everyone else did the same. If not, well, I'm glad to have possibly helped you cut your PDF production expenses ;-)

      > I believe a browser should be smart enough to withstand whatever's thrown at it, and if it recieves errored data, to notify the user as such, and move on

      Most browsers, when they receive erroneous[*] data, are perfectly able to "withstand" it (actually, they just ignore whatever tags or parameters they can't understand). I suppose you're talking about not rendering the page if it has bugs ? Well, you *can* force a browser to do that (Gecko will do it if you send an application/xhtml+xml MIME type header), but you cannot generalize this beahviour, for the following reasons : (1) the *vast* majority of Web pages out there are invalid (*cough*Slashdot*cough*), and (2) even those who are valid can be rendered invalid by external factors (ad banner code, for instance). And you cannot fail to render much of the Web, at least, if you want to have users, because without a large userbase, you won't be able to push for more standards support (yes, it's quite ironic, I know).

      > it is also our fault for not implementing all of the features

      It would probably help if the standard was a tad less obscure. Of course, you've a lot of conformance tests out there, but still...

      > As Microsoft does have more of the market share, that shouldn't stop people from creating pages that don't work with Internet Explorer

      Huh... Yeah, sure. Whatever. I'm sure my customers would be thrilled at the opportunity to break their site for ~80% of their visitors, don't you think so ? Seriously, that's not (yet) possible, the best people can do is make standards-compliant pages that work on most browsers (note I didn't even say "all browsers" because there are differences in CSS rendering between nearly every one of them. *Sigh*).

      > If it was anyone's "fault" [...] it's the Web Developers for not using the standards

      What about the funny people at Netscape who started the nonstandard tag mania in the first place ? The W3C for not being vocal enough ? I only heard about Web standards fairly recently (a few years). That campaign should have been launched much earlier, *before* the damage (i.e. gazillions of invalid pages all over the Web) was done !

      [*] Yes, I'm a grammar Nazi, too. You're out of luck, today *grin*

      --
      Xenu brings order!
    5. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by naylor83 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, it sucks big time. Here's a screenshot: Amaya having a go with some Acid

    6. Re:So nothing can display it correctly? by lesinator · · Score: 2, Interesting
      IMHO this is how it should happen. Standards should be set high to give the browser makers something to aim for.


      Back in the early days of anti-virus software the ICSA labs (I think it was the NCSA labs at that point) started certifying AV products. Their test was pretty simple, it required identification of %100 of the common viruses in the wild that they threw at it. No AV product passed it when the test first came out. By setting the bar high it drove competation in the marketplace and spurred on all the AV vendors to improve their products.

  2. how do the others stack up ? by johnjones · · Score: 3, Interesting

    like

    safari on tiger anyone ?
    please post a screenshot of that I would really be intrested

    stats on web browsers market share
    w3 numbers

  3. Re:FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the end of the day, no it's not. Broken is broken.

    So when Firefox applies the display: table-cell rule correctly, that's utterly meaningless and should be filed as a bug because Firefox applies other rules on the same page wrongly? You aren't making sense.

    There are many, many CSS rules in the test. The test is designed to exercise lots of different areas of CSS.

    If you think that there's no useful information beyond "no browser applies all of the rules correctly", well then you've wasted your time reading this story, because I could have told you that before this test was even published.

    Let's all pat the OSS Community on the back!

    What does open-source have to do with this? Opera, a tiny company with nowhere near the resources of Microsoft, who haven't released their browser as open-source, have done miles better than Microsoft.

    I think you're just trolling, especially when you try and turn this into some kind of open-source vs proprietary flamewar.

  4. What browser did they use? by Macrobat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just out of curiosity...what browser did they use to get the successful reference rendering? I'm presuming there's one that successfully renders, otherwise, how do they know their test code is valid? I've clicked around but don't know what they used to generate that png.

    --
    "Hardly used" will not fetch you a better price for your brain.
  5. Valid CSS? by molo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm confused, is this supposed to be valid CSS2? The W3C CSS validator finds 8 errors in the page.

    -molo

    CSS validator results

    * Line: 46
    Parse Error - second two]
    * Line: 91 Context : .parser-container div
    Invalid number : color orange is not a color value : orange
    * Line: 97 Context : .parser
    Property error doesn't exist : }
    * Line: 100 Context : .parser
    Property m rgin doesn't exist : 2em
    * Line: 100
    Parse error - Unrecognized : };
    * Line: 102 Context : .parser
    Invalid number : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 200
    * Line: 103 Context : .parser
    Parse Error - ! error;
    * Line: 103 Context : .parser
    Parse error - Unrecognized : }

    --
    Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    1. Re:Valid CSS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The trouble with doing this is that most browser rendering engines have to accept at least some broken code in order to be useful.

      Not CSS. CSS, unlike HTML, has mandatory error handling procedures. If a browser doesn't follow them, then it doesn't conform to the specification.

      In the real world, you will find plenty of invalid stylesheets, but very few that will actually "break the page" if the correct error handling is used.

  6. Re:FUD by ReverendLoki · · Score: 2, Interesting
    At the end of the day, no it's not. Broken is broken.

    At the end of the day, I'd like to drive home in the car that's timing is a little off causing a loss of 2 mpg and 3 hp, as opposed to the car that is in such a state of disrepair that the axle falls off after 2 miles and the fuel tank spontaneously combusts.

    There's also the idea that, assuming all parties are working to make their browser compliant, then it may also be assumed that one party may be closer to reaching full complaice than the other.

    Or, to further mutilate an abused analogy, which of the above cars would be easier to repair?

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  7. If Those Can't Render It... by TsukasaZero · · Score: 1, Interesting

    What publicly availbe browser can, if any? Because I would love to try it.

  8. ROFL by The+Bungi · · Score: 1, Interesting
    And somehow this didn't make it to the front page, eh?

    Fair and balanced as always!