Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Gates Calls for Increase in Tech Labor Supply

Posted by samzenpus on from the give-us-your-huddled-hackers dept.

Randeep Igochyorjob writes "Reuters is reporting that Bill Gates is asking for the removal of quotas for guest workers by removing the caps on non-immigrant alien workers. In a mild attempt at balance, buried near the end of the story, the article also says "Undersecretary of Commerce Phil Bond, a top Bush administration technology official, pointed out that the unemployment rate for engineers is above the national average." I'm wondering if raising wages might attract the "needed" workers from domestic sources or is Gate's request "necessary to remain competitive and innovative"."

21 of 827 comments (clear)

  1. Gates Request.. by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds like he wants a bunch of foreign workers who wouldn't quibble over a $20,000-30,000 salary where a US coder would expect a bit more.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Gates Request.. by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
      > Sounds like he wants a bunch of foreign workers who wouldn't quibble over a $20,000-30,000 salary where a US coder would expect a bit more.

      Let's put it this way.

      Isn't it funny that even Billgatus of Borg can't convince the Administration to let in another 100,000 engineers (be they from India or Canada) to get paid and pay Social Security and income taxes on incomes between $30-50K, but nobody blinks an eye at letting in millions of workers (mostly from Mexico) to get paid $3.00/hour washing dishes and pay no tax because they're here illegally or because their incomes are very low, despite consuming tax dollars in the form of health and education costs for their families?

      I'm all for immigration -- but is it too much to ask of immigration policymakers that we import the sort of people who will be net contributors to the economy, rather than a net drain thereon?

    2. Re:Gates Request.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, third-world illegal immigrants are frequently net contributors as well, as they are not as easily able to use state services or later draw social security with their bogus IDs and SSNs.

      Many Indian and Canadian guest workers are sending just that much more money back overseas to their families instead of spending it here.

      There are also illegal immigrant white collar workers (like a Canadian I met) who get paid under the table at good jobs the states, thereby avoiding even more taxes than the $3/hour people.

      It's a two way street and it's not always simple.

    3. Re:Gates Request.. by KingJoshi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Instead of moderating your post, I'll respond.

      MANY Mexican illegals have fake SSNs and pay all those taxes you think they don't. And many don't get returns or anything. A recent article in the NY Times was title, "Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions" and that all future IRS and government income assumes that these numbers will continue to rise.

      Second, it's IMPOSSIBLE to close off or secure the border with Mexico, while it's much easier to check people at airports.

      Another, many Americans go to college and seek those IT jobs. People aren't flocking to work those fields in Idaho, do construction around Las Vegas, etc. North Carolina is growing in population largely to the illegals and the state's economy is seeing the effects.

      And they don't work for $3/hr. sure, some do. I had friends working for $4/hr for 12 hours a day for a while. but that was 10 years ago and non-taxed. But I'm working illegally for $7/hr (fast-food cashier). All on the books, and the Federal and States are getting a piece. And I know others doing the same.

      I think the immigration policy seriously needs to be looked into. But there are so many ideological blow hards (on various sides of the spectrum) that changes are taking way too long.

      Personally, on some level, I'd be happy with a change since I'm seeking a software engineering job and need sponsorship. But I don't think it needs to be increased. If companies start leaving the US to be based elsewhere, then maybe..

      --
      In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
    4. Re:Gates Request.. by azmeith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      " Sounds like he wants a bunch of foreign workers who wouldn't quibble over a $20,000-30,000 salary where a US coder would expect a bit more."

      When was the last time you even got to know about how foreign workers on H1-Bs are employed and paid. I get tired of this typically ignorant bullshit everytime the foreign workers issue comes up. FYI, everytime a visa is granted, the applicant/employer has to get a prevailing wage certificate either from the state EDD or agencies like www.erieri.com, whoch cost about $350-$450 for a single page with three lines of typed text. These certificates state the prevailing wage for the position for which the employer wants to hire, which includes the min, median and max. The data for that is calculated every year or every other year, depending on the survey by polling employers for specific geographical areas. The applicant/employer then HAS to pay the foreign worker at least 5% more than the minimum in the certificate. Without this the application for a visa will not even get accepted. Get your fucking facts straight before you go off on the $20,000 salary.

      Moreover the very same foreign worker has to pay social security, income and FICA taxes which he will probably never get to use. H1-B terms are a max of six years (extensible under very special circumstances) and AFAIK, to collect on social security foreign workers need to have paid taxes for at least 10 years in the US. At least they come in legally and contribute to the society that provides them the opportunity, inspite of the fact that the american (for that matter most western) immigration processes are quite demeaning to most third world applicants, not to mention stupid and farcical. It considers every application an application for immigration and then they have to walk in to the interview and convince the colsulate that they dont want to immigrate (wtf!!!).

      People like you seem to like globalization only as long as it profits your fat asses at the expense of some third world or developing country. The moment it threatens you, you whine. Capitalism/free markets are a double edged sword, they can cut off your head just as easily as make a path for you to prosperity. Is it the foreign workers fault that half the country chose a self centered ass whose understanding of free markets and competition are limited to nepotism bordering on corruption? This administration is the reason why you dont have or did not have till recently a job, not the foreign worker. Its called competition, its here to stay and it can only grow more fierce. Learn to live and adapt with it.

    5. Re:Gates Request.. by Alioth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I worked in the US for a while as an L-1 then an H-1B worker. I was paid considerably MORE than my co-workers (I used to work for IBM). So much so I banked my entire home salary and lived off my international service allowance.

      Of course, since I'm not brown skinned I was accepted immediately. Most of these rants on Slashdot seem to be thinly veiled racism.

      --
      Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
  2. Trouble? by DarthVeda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it hard to believe that it is difficult to find qualified individuals within the United States. Especially after the last four years the industry has been through.

    1. Re:Trouble? by jcknox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe you should review the process you use for screening resumes. If its anything like the one most large companies use these days, it discards anyone that honestly protrays a solid skillset or good transferable job skills in favor of idiots that know how to pad a resume with more skillset buzzwords than they could truly learn in three lifetimes.

      Of course, most of these resumes are crafted to please the ridiculous job descriptions mentioned in an earlier post. What an awful cycle...

  3. Call me a conspiracy nut... by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...'cause I probably am, after thinking this one up.

    Maybe he wants to import the tech intelligentsia of other countries in order to train them to be be knowledgable in, and advocates of, Microsoft software? Give them a contract that says they'll work in the US for five or ten years, then send them home.

    Side benefits including being able to seed developing nations with pro-Microsoft software development houses,

    --
    tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
  4. So let me get this straight by ErikTheRed · · Score: 5, Funny

    The head of a corporation that's sitting on ~US$50 Billion in cash yet whines that it doesn't have the resources / capabilities (they really mean "financial interest") in fixing major security defects in their less-than-current products is whining that they need cheaper labor?!??

    I'm a fairly pro-immigration guy, but in this particular case Bill Gates can fuck himself in the ass with a cactus.

    --

    Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
  5. Key quote. by TheOriginalRevdoc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft is having a hard time finding skilled workers within the United States, and the lack of H-1B visas for skilled workers is only making the situation worse, Gates said in a panel discussion at the Library of Congress.

    Translation: "the available labour wants more money than we want to pay."

  6. Re:Cashing in on ... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Funny

    I recommend that Microsoft fire Ralph Reed and replace him with one of the Iranian mullahs with which he is interchangeable. Ralph is pulling in $240,000 per year from MSFT, and while I don't know what kind of cash a mullah pulls in, no way is it six figures.

  7. Same old, same old from wealthy business owners by Teckla · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wealthy business owners will always complain that labor isn't cheap enough or plentiful enough. This is just more of the same, and very predictable.

    As almost anyone in the software development field can tell you, there is no shortage of software developers. There is, however, a shortage of companies willing to invest in their employees by properly training them. There is also a shortage of companies that advertise open positions with reasonable requirements.

    Just hop on over to your favorite job site, and take a peek. "Candidate must have a BS in Computer Science, and 20 years of experience in the following technologies: C, C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby, Perl, Fortran, SQL, Oracle, DB/2, SQL Server, Informix, stored procedures, COBOL, point-of-sale systems, grocery store management, garbage collection, be willing to travel frequently, and willing to divorce spouse if spouse demands too much time.

    Companies can then use the excuse that nobody meets the required qualifications to show the need for more H-1B visas, or worse, offshore outsource the work.

  8. Bullshit by Vicissidude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you have 500 resumes and you can't find 12 candidates, then you're just too damn picky. Period.

    This is supply and demand folks. If you can't find the supply, then demand less. Don't screw us all by attempting to artificially increase the supply.

  9. Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he by keraneuology · · Score: 5, Insightful
    if we keep the wage-earners inside the US, the residual income from the job will stay (for the most part) inside the US

    Entirely untrue. Over $15 billion is sent home to Mexico from US migrants every year - Mexico's 2nd largest source of foreign revenue (behind oil). H1B visa employees virtually invariably have family remaining in the old country and large sums of cash will be wired back home.

    There are more than enough skilled, talented tech people in the US to fill all the jobs. There are even enough to replace the slovenly incompetents who blow enough smoke to convince the non-techie managers that they need to stick around. It has been this way for years. Shortly after my position was shipped to Mexico City and I was politely encouraged to leave the building 's CEO gave a speech about how was in dire need of good, qualified tech people. I promptly sent a letter pointing out that I was willing to relocate anywhere in the world, work any shift and reminded them that I had a perfect employment record as a sub-contractor on an project, aced every aptitude/performance test they threw my way and quickly mastered every new system/process they created. My request was ignored, so I could only conclude that 's plea for capable, productive workers was just a smokescreen so they could argue for more H1B workers. Meanwhile dozens of contractors were shown the door while the ex-Xerox salesman who got a friend to make him project manager then promptly declared backups for the mission-critical database to be an unnecessary waste of resources got to pick which 80% were laid off, then collected his bonus for reducing labor expenses.

    --
    If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
  10. Re:Cashing in on ... by Vicissidude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IT companies have been bleeding workers for the last five years. During that time, new college graduates have also been unable to find entry level work. There are excellent workers in both of those groups.

    This has nothing to do with finding the best employees and everything to do with finding the cheapest employees.

  11. Re:Cashing in on ... by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    SF = big city = high cost of living + California = even higher cost of living. If you were making 38k in a more rural area, you could live quite comfortably.

  12. Re:Cashing in on ... by sheddd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's his job to make money for Microsoft. The dot-com boom earned some low quality workers large salaries because they were (or seemed) computer savvy.

    I do feel bad for the talented and/or hardworking ones who got taken for ride after ride with startups...

    But face it, there are foreign workers willing to work harder for less money; tech workers in the US are generally spoiled IMO (with many exceptions)... In '89 you could be virtually ensured $50k/yr with a MSCE.

    The market's adjusting, and foreign labor is generally cheaper now.

    I say let the genuinely talented or hard working into the US and give 'em a green card. I think it would make our country a better place (though defining 'talented or hardworking' would be tough).

    (I don't limit the above opinion to tech workers... construction, engineering, professor, janitor, cabbie, whatever).

    The US immigrant policies have really bad problems; politicians get votes if they're 'tough on immigrants'... they get $ if they're 'ignoring the illegal immigrant problem.'

    It's a two faced, dishonest system at the moment... immigrants can get in and when their visa expires noone looks for them... if they get pulled over for speeding (after paying 10 years of social security and other taxes), they're deported without a chance to return.

    Businesses are pushing for cheap labor, and citizens are generally pushing for less competition for jobs... the immigrants get caught in the middle :(

  13. Re:Here's a tip. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In a technical field it is very easy to reject candidates in a phone screen interval - total lack of knowledge, unwillingness to solve problems, lack of interest in the job, all these things can kill you within 45-60 minutes.

    I think a technical quiz phone screen is a total B.S. way to determine the potential value of an employee. You are attempting to quiz somebody on formulaic stuff most of which can be found in 5-10 minutes online anyway. The real value of an employee comes from skills that cannot be demonstrated in 30 minutes, but rather how they handle complex issues like influencing the attitudes of their coworkers, solving issues that are complex blend of personal relationships and technical problem, whether they have a good sense of when a problem can be solved vs. when it should be left alone.

    Quizing people on off the cuff regurgitated technotrivia on the phone is unfortunately easier that really understanding what kind of employee they will be, so it is the path people tend to take. But it isn't the way you get the best employee. It's how you get somebody with a the ability to sound knowledgable on the phone.

  14. Offshoring / H1B killed me .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    H1B visas should be drastically cut with an onerous method of getting someone approved for a H1B position.

    The current method of providing a 1/2 page job advertisement with impossible skill requirments just to qualify an already know offshore worker is unethical and should be made illegal.

    Those job ads are easy to spot since they are much larger than other ads and they have 2 or 5 impossible skills only a few hundred people have.

  15. Re:Unfortunately, Gates is right by NaruVonWilkins · · Score: 5, Informative

    I live in Seattle. I don't code, I'm a PM - but I know plenty of out-of-work coders who aren't even offered an interview because they don't have the right bullshit "keywords" on their resumes. Some of the people I know can write assembly, build synthesizers from scratch, and handle kernel mode Windows coding. Guess what? They aren't finding jobs. It's not because they "aren't looking hard enough", it's because they're being offered $40-50k for $70-80k worth of work, and they won't take that shit.