Genetic Testing For Geekiness?

Paul Johnson writes "MSNBC is carrying an article wondering about how to handle a possible future genetic test for autism. Raising a severely autistic child is a heartbreaking grind, and many people (and legal systems) consider termination to be a reasonable choice where the fetus carries other genetic disorders such as Downs Syndrome. But this might also prevent the birth of future geniuses too. The article flippantly uses Bill Gates as an example (Gates is widely thought to have Asperger's syndrome), although Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison are also thought to have been similarly "different". And there is some reason to believe that "geekiness" in general is actually the place where autism shades into 'normal'."

Comments

best ever headline on msnbc !

[maharg]

Would you have allowed Bill Gates to be born?
Advances in prenatal genetic testing pose tough questions

Re:best ever headline on msnbc !

[Rei]

The whole "would you not have allowed X to be born" argument against abortion is somewhat of a fallacy: there's no way to tell in advance precisely what will become of a person in their lives, so if you want to create "geniuses", by the argument, you should spend your entire life having more children. So what if aborting a child has a 1/N chance of destroying a world-changing genius - having an additional child has that same 1/N chance of creating a new world-changing genius, so you better get started!

There may be some truth in an argument that "culling all people with 'Gene A' before they're born" (with the natural assumtpion that there will be other people born in their place) may have downsides if 'Gene A' has some positive side affects that aren't widely considered. But "would you have allowed (insert person here) to be born?" is a fallacy.

Re:best ever headline on msnbc !

[cagle_.25]

No, no; you miss the point of the argument. The argument is designed to expose the fallacy behind the claim that "this life is not worth living."

Suppose my wife and I have a medical test result which gives X% of a chance to have a child with autism -- no, that's too hard, since autism is a spectrum disease. Let's make it something genetically definite, like hermaphrodism -- are we then justified in deciding that "this life is not worth living", and killing off the baby?

To do so places us in the position of arguing from the probability of a problem to a definite, terminal solution: kill the baby. But other possibilities exist, even if the problem is as severe as projected.

The "would you have allowed (X person) to be born?" argument simply exposes the fallacy of arguing from a probability of lower quality of life to a definite conclusion: "terminate" the life.

Re:best ever headline on msnbc !

[MC68000]

It doesn't necessarily favor the pro-abortion argument if you realize that not everything that reduces crime is desirable. Certainly 24/7 government surveilance of every room in every house of every person in the world would reduce crime, but it certainly would not be desirable.

Or, to extend the above economist's logic, why should we stop at merely encouraging abortions among those whose cultural and socioeconomic characteristics make their children more likely to be criminals? Sterilizing everybody in the inner cities would certainly reduce crime for the same reason that encouraging inner city residents to have abortions does. Should it be done?

What about gay children?

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt this will be modded down, but on a similar note when the genetic test for homosexuality comes out, who wants to bet the current foes of private health care decisions will be first in line to abort their fetuses? They would have aborted Alan Turing and let the Germans win.

Re:What about gay children?

[Adult film producer]

*shrug* I don't know if there is a gene for homosexuality. What I do know is the gay kids in high school were showing signs of their sexuality long before puberty. Everybody knew they were a bit different, by the way they acted, dressed, just behaved in general... Then guess what happened, some of them admitted they were gay during high school... I imagine others hid their secret.

A lot of people say it's a choice.. Well, I never made the choice to be hetereosexual, that's just the way it was. And for those few gay kids that I went to school with, it wasn't their choice either, that's just the way they were. A gene causes this? No clue, I don't think it matter except to the religious & bigotted.

Re:What about gay children?

[Lehk228]

I kill babies for food, other reasons are morally wrong.

The same is true for most inventors and scientists

[WillAffleckUW]

Parents will tend to choose the jocks with five year lifetime careers who contribute nothing to humanity instead, dooming us to a world of know-nothings and really really boring parties - I've been at a bunch of them, and let me tell you, they'll bore the paints off you ...

Genetic testing will probably cause more harm than good - we need to have it screened for medical uses only, such things as fatal diseases, not What's Hot This Week ...

Let the State decide

[Pope Benedict XVI]

Many people believe that "God" alone should determine how many and what sort of babies we have, but I really think that is stupid. Serious matters like this should be decided by the State.

This is wrong

[John Seminal]

Raising a severely autistic child is a heartbreaking grind, and many people (and legal systems) consider termination to be a reasonable choice

So, science is so good now that we can predict with 100% accuracy if someone will be able to contribute OR OR OR live a happy life?

I know so many people with IQ's over 110, well educated, well employed, good citizens who are miserable. I also know one girl who is in a wheel chair, she has some genetic disorder, and she lights up a room with her smiles and laughs.

Re:This is wrong

[Jooly Rodney]

It doesn't have everything to do with whether or not the autistic person in question is going to lead a "happy" life or not, it also has to do with the time, effort, and $$$ spent on said person by the people who become legally responsible for him or her upon birth.

Re:This is wrong

[01000011011101000111]

That's not surprising. The higher the IQ, the more of the crappyness of the world you actually *understand*. And the more you understand, the more miserable it makes you.

Re:This is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually smarter people tend to be better adjusted than most folks. It is a myth that intelligence leads to misery.
Also this entire topic is hilarious. Linking autism to geekiness?
I can only assume most people have never genuinely encountered an autistic or person with aspergers.
They don't function well, and if newton or einstien had it, it is to their credit they achieved what they did, inspite of their condition.

Re:This is wrong

[shadow_slicer]

Have you ever met someone with autism?
My mother is a special education teacher. I've met her students.

You're right, autistic people tend to be less functional in society (loud noises or changes to routine cause them to freak out). On the other hand, they tend to be amazingly knowledgeable about a few specific things. They may not be able to carry out a conversation, but they could write research papers on dinosaurs or whatever their personal interest is (and this is in elementary school).

Autistic people have an extremely strong and narrow focus and tend to think logically. This gives them an advantage in scientific fields.

"Geekiness" does have certain common characteristics with autism (especially milder forms like aspergers). Autistic people have trouble recognizing social cues, causing them trouble socializing normally. They also can adhere to either excessive cleanliness, or its opposite.
They also show a certain social apathy, not showing appropriate interests in other people.

Re:This is wrong

[Dormann]

Also this entire topic is hilarious. Linking autism to geekiness? I can only assume most people have never genuinely encountered an autistic or person with aspergers.

Current estimates place someone with Asperger's Syndrome in every few hundred people. TFA doesn't do a good job of pointing out that Asperger's is what they call "high functioning autism", meaning that most of those with it can function and blend in with society if they choose to.

The correlation seems so reasonable to me, it's barely worth mentioning. I would speculate that a typical layperson definition of geek would be "An intelligent, but socially awkward person. A loner." Autism literally means self-ism. "One who is drawn into one's self."

Given the site you're reading now, I'd say odds are pretty good that you're working with someone that has some form of autism. They probably forgot to mention it to you.

Re:This is wrong

[gim_alelen]

This is also wrong in some parts. As a former special education teacher and currently a social worker working with autistic children, I can tell you that most autistic children do not show the "genius" for one or two things. That is a stereotype. What most people are referring to when they speak of this is neither Asperger's or autism, but a related disorder on the PDD spectrum referred to as savant syndrome.

Your description of the difficulties in social functioning for PDD spectrum children was spot on.

-Jim

Where?

[Malc]

"Raising a severely autistic child is a heartbreaking grind, and many people (and legal systems) consider termination to be a reasonable choice where the fetus carries other genetic disorders such as Downs Syndrome."

The parents I've meet with Downs and autistc children have commented on how rewarding it is. "Hearbreaking grind" is very judgemental and not necessarily true (although for some it might be).

Anyway, what legal systems consider termination to be a reasonable choice? Do they actually spell out different reasons for abortion?

Re:Where?

[damsa]

You can abort a fetus for any reason. Most popular reason is the prom dress won't fit right.

Social awkwardness != genius

[the_rev_matt]

What drives me crazy is all the programmers I've known who make the connection "I'm socially awkward and like computers, so I am a misunderstood genius and I'm better than everybody!"

And this goes hand in hand with every kid who can stack blocks by the age of 3 being 'gifted'. Of course, there's a whole industry dedicated to 'helping' (read: profiting off of) parents who believe their child is gifted.

Gratuitous Dilbert - THE KNACK!

[dsginter]

The Knack!

so sad

[danheskett]

consider termination to be a reasonable choice where the fetus carries other genetic disorders such as Downs Syndrome


That makes me very, very sad. My wife and I are expecting our first child, a girl, to be born in the next 4 weeks. There is a strong chance she will be born with Downs Syndrome.

Our doctors wanted to advise us about our "options". They wanted to run all kinds of tests, including amniocentesis and genetic testing, in order to be sure one way or another,so we could make an "informed" decision.

So, so sad. I just can't imagine anyone wanting to do such a thing - especially since we've seen her in full motion 3D video on two seperate occasions - smiling when we stroke her head, sucking her thumb, yawning when we wake her up after a nap - things that any baby would do.

My point of view -- not a political statement really. It's just heartbreaking. I fear for any culture that so highly values convenience, pride, and "perfectness" that it would cast aside those who we should be called to love and care for even more than the "perfect" little baby everyone hopes and prays for. And for the worst shame of all, doctors who repeatedly promote termination of even marginally defective babies and are constantly harping about options -alternatives! - to life.

I am under no illusions about how painful, difficult, and disappointing raising my daughter maybe if she turns out to have Downs, but believe me, I will love her and treat her as my daughter till I draw my last breath.

I really hope our culture doesn't continue to devolve into one that values only designer, perfect, genetically correct babies.

Re:so sad

[utexaspunk]

don't be so quick to judge those who don't make the same decisions as you. in other cultures a child born with such a defect would be left in the woods, or similarly cast out. there are many of us who would rather invest our parenting efforts and limited time raising a child who will grow up to be independent and able to carry on our genetic line.

not all of us believe that that cluster of cells which has implanted itself in a woman's uterus has a soul, or is even yet a human being with all the rights that accompany such status, and would rather stop a frustrating and problematic situation before it develops into an irreversible one.

don't get me wrong- i respect your choice. it's noble, and all that. but nobody should be forced to live with an avoidable anomalous situation and accept it as "god's will", as not everyone believes that.

Re:so sad

[danheskett]

it's noble, and all that. but nobody should be forced to live with an avoidable anomalous situation and accept it as "god's will", as not everyone believes that.
I said nothing about "god's will", I believe. Niether of us are overtly religious.

it's noble, and all that. but nobody should be forced to live with an avoidable anomalous situation and accept it as "god's will", as not everyone believes that.
Make no doubt about, people who abort because of a Downs Syndrome diagnosis are not doing so at 8 weeks, they are doing so at 22, 24, 30, even 32 and 34 weeks, when the child is developed to an amazing degree, and in many cases could survive outside the womb with no medical care, no life support, and no special treatment. My daughter is 33 weeks, coming up on 34, and without much of a doubt could survive handily with only minimal extra-care at this point. We are well past a "clump of cells".

My point is and was that viewing a birth defect in your child or a handicap in someone as a "problematic situation" that needs to be cured is really not right in my view, and that it's a sad thing when a culture gets to the point that a life is worthless and not worth living without being physically perfect from the day you are born.

And it can only lead to more and more depravities.

Especailly with Downs Syndrome, of all things, which allows people to still live healthy, happy, productive lives.

geekiness is overrated

[circletimessquare]

social intelligence is far more important than iq, and doesn't get the press it deserves.

an average iq kid who has a high social intelligence will go on to make $40 million, and the high iq, low social intelligence asperger type we're talking about here will wind up working for him for $30K/ year.

if the point of this slashdot story is to bring attention to the preciousness of autism/ asperger's and its role in high iq people, then i respond with a big "so what".

genius doesn't matter if it can't be communicated.

a mediocre idea well-communicated is worth 10,000x more than a genius level idea that stays locked up in someone's skull.

so enough of the cult of asperger's. it's overrated. social intelligence is the real deal.

Future whoevers

[Council]

Just want to note -- I have a lot of experience with autism and specifically Asperger's. And before it gets too involved, I want to mention this:

The argument "in doing this, you might stop the next genius from existing", whether applied to medication or abortion, is not simply the last word. It is something to take into consideration.

The parents who have to raise the child are the ones making these decisions. It's true, "he just might be the next Einstein", but it's much more likely that his parents will go through their lives not being able to speak to him, having him attack you for no reason, and not being able to see him ever live on his own.

Asperger's, a mild variety of autism, is a mixed bag. It breaks my heart to see my cousin's family torn apart by their son's inability to control himself, and he's relatively high-functioning. A test for autism would be a tremendous boon for parents facing the prospect of raising a child who will be forever locked away from them, and they from him. High-minded ideals about future genuises are not what they want to hear.

Summary: Serious autism is terrible. Only a small fraction of autistic children are able to lead productive lives. Borderline cases like [famous person here] are extremely high-functioning, if in the spectrum at all, and probably wouldn't fall under any test in the near future.

Re:The same is true for most inventors and scienti

[John Seminal]

Genetic testing will probably cause more harm than good

I agree.

Next, genetic testing before an insurance company will sell you health insurance.

Science is not perfect, it never was. I remember 20 years ago the HUGE butter scare. Scientific test after test came out saying butter caused heart attacks, and to switch to margerin. A few years ago, studies came out saying that margerin is unhealthy, and butter is better? If people listen to science or their studies, they will be eatting eggs one year, avoiding them like the plauge the next year, and then drinking them raw the next.

And like the above example, it was the margerin industry that funded those early scientific studies. They wanted to increase their sales, so they labled butter unhealthy.

Now extend this one step further. Someone HATES jews, there are tons of people out there who are racist. They decide that certian genes, only found in the jewish population, lead to certain disorders. They then use this as an excuse for terminating these pregnecies.

Next... "We think your baby has an abnormally high chance for sickle cell anemia, we reccomend termenating your pregnancy".

Meanwhile... "Yes Mr. Forbes, we agree, if we lighten the shade of your babys hair, it will bring out his eyes, and we'll make sure to add the genes which increase muscle mass, and the genes that increase IQ".

Now, which one will be the more ethical and better human being? That is something science is incapable of prediciting.

I probably would have been aborted

[Vile Slime]

I,

Am a decently successful human being, I run my own business, have held numerous significant jobs, have an advanced college degree.

But, I was born with a small level of Cerebral Palsy.

Just enough to make me limp and trip occasionally.

And other than constantly overhearing 4 year olds asking their parents why does that man walk that way in public I am just as "normal" as the next guy. Ok, normal might be too nice:-) But I'm trying.

When I entered pre-school I was automatically placed in the "special education" (that's what it was called then) class. Not one question was asked of my parents as to my cognitive abilities, etc. My Dad was livid to say the least.

But, what if I had been diagnosed in the womb with my CP would I even exist? Would a doctor have "convinced" my parents to abort?

The kind of testing described should be outlawed as far as I'm concerned.

We have already seen what happened in China, I believe it was, or was it India, when people started getting ultrasounds to determine if they were having a girl or a boy, then aborting the girl fetuses.

It's just a place society shouldn't go, at all.

Re:Don't know about Einstein

[damsa]

Einstein couldn't talk until he was five, and also he married his cousin. I rest my case.

Re:Oh come on, give us some proof...

[Ann Elk]

Many years ago (early 80's), I worked for Tandy Corporation. We had a meeting with Bill and a few other folks from Microsoft. Bill spent most of the meeting sitting sideways in his chair, rocking back and forth, chewing on the leather band of his wristwatch. He seemed to not be paying any attention, but it was obvious from the questions he asked that he was listening to everything.

Re:Let's get something straight: GEEK != AUTISTIC!

[bnenning]

Seriously! FUCK ALL YOU PEOPLE!

For future reference, this may not be the best tone to take when attempting to convince others that you're psychologically normal.

Re:Genetics and Free Will are Mutually Exclusive

[Erioll]

I'm sure I could give you a laundry list of Good and Evil acts, and you'd probably agree with 100% of them, but the moment somebody disagrees, and does one of those heinious (sp?) acts, it's OK because nobody can tell another what is good or bad?

I call BS.

Re:Nuclear Family is better than non-traditional.

[RatBastard]

Kids do better in the traditional nuclear family than in non-traditional setups.

This is not true at all. Children actually do better when raised in extended families: families that include the active participation of grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc... living in close proximity. These additional family members take a lot of the burden off of the parents, especially in the early years and provide a wealth of expirience to help said parents deal with problems that come up.

The "mother, father, 2.5 kids and the dog" traditional family is anything but traditional and is the product of post-WWII America. A short-lived Traditional America where white men were in charge, the women stayed at home, children were the property of their parents, those pesky minorities knew their place, those homos stayed in the closet or were beaten to death and everyone was a propper God-fearing Christian. An America that never was.

Gay/Straight matters to those who are concerned about kids's welfare.

How? What does it matter if someone is gay or straight? If they are allowed to live normal lives and are happy then their orientation is of no matter. I do know that the "for the children's sake" is an argument frequently used to stifle ideas offensive to conservatives who consider everything outside their narrow point of view to be evil.

Re:Genetics and Free Will are Mutually Exclusive

[Qzukk]

Ok, lets take a look at some terribly heinous crimes:

Sex out of wedlock.
Paying for sex out of wedlock.
Sex out of wedlock with someone of the same gender.
Marrying someone of the same gender.
Polygamy/Polyandry.
Purchasing a "mail order bride".
Teaching students that sex using a condom can protect against some STDs and help prevent unwanted children.
Aborting a fetus that would normally survive but be crippled mentally or physically.
Aborting a fetus that would not normally survive, but would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make the attempt at life, just in case it does survive.
Allowing a woman to die after 15 years in a coma on life support.
Refusing to allow the government to pass a law forcing said woman to not die.
Aborting an unwanted fetus.
Copying a song onto tape from the radio.
Copying a song onto mp3 from a cd.
Copying a song onto mp3 over the internet.
Teaching someone else how to copy a song from a cd with copy protection.
Gambling.

All of these and more are "Evil" acts that someone or another thinks is "wrong", and yet those feelings are not universally held, and/or have changed over time. As the grandparent said, some things that are evil and unspeakable to me aren't to others, and vice-versa. Common grounds are few and far between. I wonder what cannibalistic tribes think of other people's revulsion of killing and eating humans.

Vagary's statement that "only creatures capable of evil are capable of good" is itself not logically sound. If someone was born who never once thought of killing anyone, would they be incapable of learning CPR and saving a life? Maybe my CPR training in Boy Scouts was what led me to work in tech support. Driven to evil thoughts by my capability to do good?

Perhaps on a species-wide scale if humans became incapable of breaking laws, starting wars, or hurting one another, there would no longer be "heroics" or other large scale displays of "good" that everyone could point to, but even if we did somehow create a beautiful utopia, people would still be born into the world, cared for as children, and raised into this society... would this not be "good"?