FFXI Team Working On New MMOG

Gamespot has the word that the team behind Final Fantasy XI is working on a new game in the Massive genre. From the article: "Tanaka declined to comment on whether the MMORPG in development will be a successor to FFXI or a new product. He did confirm that the technical demonstration shown for the Xbox 360 during E3 was one of the experiments his development team had created to see what kind of graphics a next-generation console could achieve."

Comments

Will they learn from their mistakes?

[darkmayo]

I played FFXI and the forced grouping and tedious leveling to be a real determinent to the game.
Definately had some great aspects.. the cutscene style story telling, and the beautiful graphics where a plus as well the class system while was pretty orginal (for a mmorpg)

As well maybe this time around they will put a stop to the farmers off the bat.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

the beautiful graphics
Really? Where?

The graphics might hold you interest for your first 40 levels, but by level 50, you'll realize that they reuse them to an insane degree.

It's been three years. Dragoons are still worthless. Red Mages are essentially gimped Bards and still a freaking stupid class. There are still too many melee classes compared to support classes. Equipment is still more important than anything else.

No, they aren't going to learn from their mistakes. It's Square-Enix. FFXII is supposed to be a cross between FFTA and FFXI. WTF?!!

Just give up on them. Squaresoft and Enix are dead, all that's left is a company content on screwing their corpses for easy money.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Datamonstar]

I can't comment on the class issues too much, since I didn't play the game all the way through high-level. But considering that this game was a cross-platform venture, I gotta highlight there is a reasonale limit to the number of character models they could use, so reusing the models/effects is not so nit-picky as it would be on a PC, or stand-alone console title.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[falcon5768]

while I really had no problem with the force grouping (honestly its a MMORPG, they WANT you to talk to people and not kill things on your own) I would never have called the leveling tedious. Maybe before the last update, but the new XP system requires a lot less XP to hit 75 though merits still are high.

My biggest complaint has always been to get a more multi-national GM force. Even when they are not trying to be dicks, the GMs come off as them because of the cultural differences between Americans and Japanese.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Mandoric]

Dragoons are worthless if you don't know how to use them. As a heavy DD class, they (and everything else but monks on skeletons) will lose to a well-funded ranger. However, what they lack in raw power they gain back in accuracy bonuses (of a level that most other melees are paying millions for), and the capability (especially in later levels) to sub RDM and use wyvern breath to become a fairly-effective healer. Of course, if you've got the "omgwtf must be leet" mentality that was epidemic among the Japanese at NA launch, and is still epidemic among the NA, you'll already have your NIN tank, Taru WHM/SMN, and your three RNGs, and you'll be rushing off to tear 200xp a shot kicking and screaming from IT++ mobs no matter how long or how many consumables it takes you per kill.

Red Mages being gimped bards is, again, a matter of usage. Bards can't debuff in the same ways, can't do decent elemental DoT in melee, can't burst off renkei, can't rapidly heal, and can only have two spells in effect per target at any one time. However, if you're convinced that RDM is there for Refresh and only Refresh, then...

As for melee/support balance... well... slightly over half the jobs are melee. Slightly over half the -party slots- are typically melee. The main issue with melee invites is that, barring endgame monks, the average party has a set short list of places where they're willing to play and mobs they're willing to fight, and the RNG's ability to throw gil at problems tends to be amplified through these. Nerfing TP gain from Barrage like was done to other multi-hits and changing the HQ yield on arrows from 33/66/99 to 33/33/66/99 would probably improve this...
but so would players realizing that if they can't have steak, they're at least better off with a hamburger than nothing. Sadly, there's a good half-year or year to go before this becomes common.

Finally, you're a bit confused about the concept of FFXII. The game engine itself is similar to FFXI with AI-controlled allies, which makes it not too dissimilar from a long list of decent games such as the Star Ocean series, Bioware's Infinity Engine games, and even Secret of Mana.
It's only in plot that relation to FFT-A, and Vagrant Story and FFT, are brought in---it's being developed by the creative team behind all of those games, who have thus far used the Ivalice setting for all their projects for Square and later Square-Enix.

There are a few solid technical problems, or at least unintended effects, in FFXI, such as RNG's damage supremacy on common mobs, NIN's unanticipated tanking ability, and predictable NM spawn times; however, the vast majority of "issues" that the playerbase identify are, at worst, the lesser of multiple evils.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't be so bad if they used two simple techniques to make them look slightly different:

Vertex shading, allowing them to be different colors.

Scaling, allowing them to look like different shapes.

Fighting the same blue crab for 50 levels is just, flat out, lame.

Plus I'm talking more about every single zone looking identical. You have the Generic Grass Zone. The Generic Desert Zone. The Generic Forest Zone. The Generic Mossy Cavern Zone. Every zone can be expressed by a single color, too.

It's all so ... bland.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[0racle]

What forced grouping?

I just started playing last Sunday and I haven't joined up with anyone or even thought about it yet.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ding level 15. Watch as "decent challenge" mobs kill you in three hits.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[falcon5768]

just so you know, bards CAN MB, they like pld and other mages with no attack magic only end up making their songs stick on the mob longer. But my GF bursts on our light skillchains all the time to land a song shes having trouble landing or is getting partial resists on.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[falcon5768]

If your going to troll, you should at least include facts, and not noobish uber l337 idiot banter.

Every one of your points is wrong.

And FFXI made SE a LOT of money nearly 55% of their profits last year, so much money they are looking into expanding into even more MMORPGs.

Sorry SEs got a lot of life left in it.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that explains this story. Or why they're taking the FFXI team off FFXI and are making a new MMORPG.

Or the three various campaigns they're running desperate to get new members.

Or the complete lack of any new game in the past two years or so.

Face it, pal, Squeenix is dead.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

tell me about it, I just hit level 15 and I was fighting off four "easy preys" simultaneously. I thought it was going to be easy but I was seriously shitting myself, especially since with a the multiple hits on me, I couldn't cast cure myself (too cheap to buy potions).

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Yosho]

For what it's worth, everybody is too cheap to buy potions. They're very expensive, and don't really heal you very much. If you really want to play solo, after you've hit 15, the best thing you can do is party until 18, get your sub-job, level that up to 15, get your main job up to 30, and then unlock Beastmaster, the one class that's capable of soloing the entire way.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Mandoric]

Yeah, I should've noted "for damage". Debuffs and other non-damage effects are doable, but weren't really the use I was trying to get at---namely, a Blizzard Whatever for the kill.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[MeFo]

I played FFXI and the forced grouping and tedious leveling to be a real determinent to the game.

Give me MMORPG where you se constant progress, i guess i speak for everyone when you must put a stop to all this unentertaining grinding, killing the same racoon over and over just to win 1% of your level. Games are ment to be enjoyed.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. They're so desperate to get new members that they're now load balancing the servers. Meaning, so many people are playing nowadays, that things needed a little rebalancing to offset the huge load. Walked through Jeuno lately? Wait, you're a pissed-off anti-Square person who probably never touched the game.

Go do your homework.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[djdanlib]

I'm replying to you and the parent poster, so take what you will out of this.

Mmm, Refresh is essential, but Phalanx, Convert and Stoneskin are just as essential for a RDM to understand in many situations. Namely the "Oh crap we're gonna die" situations that are so easy to get into, or HNM battles. What happens when the tank dies (one-shotted) because the Empty NM you're fighting (Promy-Holla anyone?) has massive damage abilities and already slammed three DOTs and debuffs on him?

I play a DRK, so I appreciate the mastery of the elements so many good RDMs have that other mages and bards don't have. Heck, I think NIN sometimes has better elemental knowledge than the average BLM, who seems content to toss nukes everywhere. I also prefer to have a BRD in my party when possible, as opposed to not having one.

There's nothing like getting chain 5 on 100 EXP kills and being ready for more. Am I right?!

I think a lot of the major issues are... get ready for this one... caused by the people who must resist popular ideas because they're simply too popular. I'm reminded of a Diesel Sweeties character. "Nothing is any good if other people like it." Played with a WAR28/WHM6 lately? How about a PLD32/MNK7 trying to tank without PROVOKE, or someone wearing gear that cancels out their other gear? Yeah. I can hear the shouts now: "TRAIN TO ZONE!!!"

Sad how so many people whine when they bought a MASSIVELY MULTI PLAYER GAME so they could play ALONE, and *surprise!* it doesn't WORK that way! You know what I mean?

Graphics sucking? Please! Have you played NES Mario, Zelda, Pac-Man, Wolfenstein 3D or Counter Strike recently? Those are venerable classics that people still love today, and there's no argument about that. Yet their graphics are sub-par by today's standards. Get this: FFXI was developed when DX8 was new, and gameplay and multiplayer aspects were more important to Square than having unique 48-bit uber-high resolution vertex-shaded textures on each instance of each monster you're going to mangle. Gameplay is better! Comeraderie, parties, friends. That's all so much better than packing for an ego trip, which always takes longer than you want it to. Learn what fun is, guys... By the way, how many PS2s do you know of that could support unique hair colors on everyone in front of the Lower Jeuno auction house? Zero, that's how many. The PS2 is the upper limit of the game's capabilities.

Sigh. Kids today, so selfish. Sheesh. Go outside and play if you can't handle yourself properly when you don't like a video game.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Mandoric]

Pretty much agreed.

There're the people who are sure they have the one true way, and in all fairness are probably, within the rules of the game, right, but require the exact proper setup to get there. When they don't have that, they tend to break down due to lack of versatility. The better NA players and, I've heard, most of the high-level better Japanese players tend to be like this---after a year and a half of playing, I'm still only lv.40 on my main, with the other people I get detailed play reports from topping out at 55, so I can't directly comment on endgame.

There're also the people who, whether through self-delusion or laziness, have found a provably "false" way---often, one just as difficult to accomplish as the "true" one, but in any case making some distinctly and obviously poor choices out of ego, mistaken assumptions, or personal style. You've touched on these in your post; they tend to break down in all but extremely rare situations.

Then there's an optimal middle path---the versatility to do things that are uncommonly needed, without sacrificing the ability to function in a somewhat-optimal party. Some of my best XP/hour has come from mage-stacked groups in which the RDM was able to pull out armor and a shield and act as first voke for SATA, or a pair of ninja shared tanking duties and I as PLD was asked to pull out my greatsword and start chewing meat 'kabobs since there were no DDs seeking, or hunting worms in Koroloka with a MNK tanking standing far away and spamming Boost while everyone else, playing either PLD, RDM, or WAR/WHM, meleed and rotated cures so none of us took hate from the MNK.

Is a RDM usually a good first voke? Not really, but when it's the difference between SATA and no SATA, it's worth it.
Is a PLD the best at hurting things? No, but with proper skills, ability use, and equipment, he can certainly have a decent effect.
Is WAR/WHM ever acceptible in a party? When it lets you keep the worm hate on the guy 40 feet away loaded down with +Earth gear, huge HP, and constant Barstone, it's hard to argue against.

Sadly, a playstyle that values versatility seems to be limited to those sated with enough in-game rewards to keep them from craving the absolute fastest advancement possible, yet who aren't completely dedicated to the kind of endgame content where perfect execution -is- everything. While a lot's been made of the difference between NA and Japanese playstyle in the past, I think in the end a fair amount of the "Japanese difference" is the ability to relax and enjoy the game, as I've felt it in a number of LS statics too, even those that I wasn't typically a part of but only a one-session replacement for catching up to someone who'd inadvertently outleveled the others.
It's unfortunate that most of the NA player base hasn't yet reached a point where they don't -need- to progress with utmost speed to feel satisfied; however, judging from the history of the game, that day will come soon; just as it has for many of the Japanese who aren't completely caught up in endgame events and/or drama.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[djdanlib]

Or do the next best thing, and take up WHM, because you'll get a screenful of invites every time you log in or drop /anon. That'll satisfy your need for progress if you can handle it. Playing solo in a MMORPG this big will get boring really quick. Remember: It takes ~40 minutes to chocobo from one city to another, unless you're going to/from Jeuno. That's 2 hours if you walk and DON'T fight anything along the way. Getting a party with teleport-enabled mages is underrated.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[snarlydwarf]

Nerfing TP gain from Barrage like was done to other multi-hits

Oooh, I'd be sooo happy if they did that. Barrage has become better than Meditate... :/

And, yes, I've partied in Garbaige with a level 32WAR/6PLD that had 6mp (hint: Cure1 = 8mp). I was playing DRK (and pulling) and he told me to not melee, but "just do that black magic stuff"...

So many idiots, not enough Serket spawns to train on them...

There are certainly flaws like Barrage's insane TP gain, but as someone who has one of the oldest still-running Diku's, it still impresses me how well balanced and well structured the game is.

And, yes, you can make odd jobs work.. but you have to know what you're doing, and it only works in some situations.

I do agree with DRG's accuracy though... one of my pt's in Boyadah had everyone 2 levels above the DRG.. but the DRG still managed to gain TP at about the same rate as the other melee's. And by that point in the game, skillchains and bursts are essential to getting decent xp, so TP gain is crucial.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, no. Yes, they're trying to spin it like that, but it's just spin.

The reality is that their population has been shrinking over the past year as people wised up to how terrible this game was. They've been losing customers like mad for the past year. However, since they finally released in Europe, they've managed to sucker enough people in Europe to start playing to keep that growth neutral. (Which is the same as saying "it's dead" in an MMORPG.)

This large loss of players has effected the listed "low population" servers the most since those servers had the most Americans on them. Now they're trying to "balance" the remaining population out.

FFXI has the same number of players right now as it did last year, despite having been released in a new market between then and now. That's not the sign of a healthy MMORPG. That's the sign of a game that's on its last legs and is finally starting to decay.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Elsebet]

Designing classes like this is simply lazy and is a built-in, non-creative stretch to the level grind of a game. This also allows the inept or unskilled to level simply due to their choice of class and availability at the time.

Imagine, you are in a party of 4 who is seeking a healer. The only one you can find looking for group is an idiot you've grouped with in the past who barely heals and expends his mana doing damage instead. You have a number of choices, but the only one to get you progressing in your current state is to bring the dork along with you. If you pass and wait, you may not get another healer or another key slot will have to leave.

I've seen this happen in plenty of games where we "needed" a certain class. Since I play healers all the time it was usually another needed CC, tank, or DPS class. If no other suitable "slot fillers" were found, the idiot came along or your progress/fun didn't happen.

Obviously this design is solely tuned for profit, no designer of a "fun" game would build a system in which you had access 24/7 but could only enjoy the fun when certain tight requirements which are out of your control were met.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Pluvius]

Face it, pal, Squeenix is dead.

No, just FFXI. As long as they're not stupid enough to go online-only, they'll be fine. Especially if they've learned their lesson and decided to keep the main FF series single-player, as it's supposed to be.

Rob

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

FF8 - sucked.
FF9 - sucked.
FF10 - sucked.
FF10-2 - sucked.
FF11 - sucked.

Final Fantasy - the real Final Fantasy - has been dead for a long time now.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Pluvius]

Even assuming that your fanboy delusions are correct, what does that have to do with the success of the games? All of the SP games on your list sold plenty of copies.

Rob

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[djdanlib]

I see your point, but you are arguing against something written tongue-in-cheek (or whatever you call it when you type that way.)

However. How can you have a game where people are required to group together to experience the content, if every player can be anything that's needed at any time? It seems logical to diversify and condense the classes or even eliminate the class system altogether until you realize that the point of separate classes is to get people working together as a group, and eventually people will specialize in a specific few "must-have" abilities so often that you'll essentially have classes again. You have to consider what happens after the game's been out for a few years. Look around for Ragnarok character "builds" and see what I mean... getting to choose your abilities and stats when you level up is great but there are only a few often-desired classes of build. So you see, it's not lazy, it's a necessary evil. It's also clever because the job classes are uniquely qualified for their roles, and nobody else can handle it anywhere near as well. If you're horribly inept at healing, your party will die and lose EXP instead of gaining EXP. People will eventually learn to stay clear of you and you will have to retire if you just won't learn to play.

If you want to be whatever you feel like at any time, go play ToME, or make your own game. MMORPGs are about playing roles - not playing generic everymen.

Re:Will they learn from their mistakes?

[Elsebet]

However. How can you have a game where people are required to group together to experience the content, if every player can be anything that's needed at any time?

First, let me explain that I do not classify all of the simple levelling in MMORPG's as content. It really depends on the depth of the levelling experience. In WoW, you can complete quests to level so that is more content based. In Everquest you pretty much sat in one place and slew monsters for hours to level - THAT, in my opinion, is not true content but laziness on the designer's part. FFXI follows EQ's method.

Second, I never stated that every player should be able to do everything. I certainly saw the problems inherent in the old UO flavor-of-the-month templates. However you have that problem with classes too. I saw how popular berserkers were in early DAoC, then how popular the ignored sorcerer became after the Shrouded Isles expansion. Both class and skillset balancing are daunting tasks, and are never quite finished.

as a group, and eventually people will specialize in a specific few "must-have" abilities so often that you'll essentially have classes again.

You are speculating that based on current MMORPG design. I'm talking about an entirely new design that would require teamwork based on what you could drum up at the time, not some trinity of established classes (tank, healer, DPS) that is so prevelant in most every MMORPG out today. I am talking about challenging monster AI that changes tactics based on what the players present, not the ever present "chain heal on the tank" type scenario.

you level up is great but there are only a few often-desired classes of build. So you see, it's not lazy, it's a necessary evil. It's also clever because the job classes are uniquely qualified for their roles, and nobody else can handle it anywhere near as well.

This may be fine for unique situations, raids, important quests, etc. However in my opinion you should not need such specialized players for something as simple as grinding mobs to level (if that is part of your game design). In fact, even tougher scenarios should be able to be accomplished without the typical healer/tank/dps combo. WoW did this rather well in that they spread out crowd control over several classes. That versatility is what I see as good design, rather than "only enchanters can mez, only shamans can slow, etc".

If you're horribly inept at healing, your party will die and lose EXP instead of gaining EXP. People will eventually learn to stay clear of you and you will have to retire if you just won't learn to play.

I wish it always worked like that! :) However in my years of MMORPG playing I've grouped with many who I and others vowed never to group with again. Still they still manage to soar to the highest levels.

If you want to be whatever you feel like at any time, go play ToME, or make your own game. MMORPGs are about playing roles - not playing generic everymen.

You still insist on putting the "anything at any time" words in my mouth. :) Remember even UO was hugely successful during it's time with its "generic everymen" design. Roles are defined by the creator, not some law set in stone (HEALER/TANK/DPS). A Cleric is a role just like a melee fighter with slight healing/magic ability is a role. The laziness is forcing the same roles as every other MMORPG, and building content around it.

Not the same team. but...

[Mandoric]

a new S-E MMO, "a href="http://www.playonline.com/fe/">"Fantasy Earth The Ring of Dominion", has been announced and in development for some time, with release scheduled for 2005. The system itself is described as a fusion of vaguely PSO-style "action MMO" and "real-time strategy"; this seems to be in keeping with S-E's philosophy of limited PvP by faction.

With the announcement of this and the release of FMO last month, as well as the continued support of FFXI mentioned elsewhere in the interview, it seems unlikely that a FFXI sequel is pending.

Re:Not the same team. but...

[ferrx]

Wow, not sure how I managed to miss this game.. can't believe it's an MMO, looks too story-driven to be anything but single player.

Re:Not the same team. but...

[falcon5768]

no its a MMORPG, originally it was only going to be for PC too.

I can see it now!

[Anonymous Coward]

Barren Landscape Simulator 2: The Reckoning.

Now with more tufts of grass!

Could it be...

[OK PC]

World Of Mana?