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House Limits Patriot Act Rules on Library Records
xerid writes "From CNN.COM: "WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted Wednesday to block the FBI and the Justice Department from using the Patriot Act to search library and book store records. Despite a veto threat from President Bush, lawmakers voted 238-187 to block the part of the anti-terrorism law that allows the government to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects.""
I wonder when the government will require everyone to have a bank account, ban bank notes, and require all purchases to be made by card.
All in the interests of removing profits by terrorists through counterfeiting, and of course to keep track of terrorists purchasing habits.
PS (OT) -- is anyone else having trouble with IP bans on slashdot? I get 2 downmods on apost and suddenly I'm IP banned! I only got this posted through Tor, but that's not that much better as slashdot blocks most of the nodes there too. Any help?
Making the moon less necessary since 1998.
I don't know... The way I look at it, I have been and will continue to pay for all of my books with credit cards. I want those bastards to know what I read, and that I disagree with their policies. IMHO, it's important that we stand up to them and exercise what little freedom we have left. If we don't, then the gov't will see it as an indication that we either don't care, or are not paying attention and will continue to walk all over us. No more.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
I'm not saying I like the Patriot Act, but I really think that we should be rational in our removal of this disturbance, as we weren't rational with our creation of it in the first place.
The Patriot Act was a fast acting, country sweeping bill that made it to law simply because the governing agencies that wanted it, wanted it now, and nobody was going to stand in their way in the wake of what had just happened in our country.
That being said, if we act too strongly and remove the whole thing at once, we are setting ourselves up to the whole situation again, perhaps worse; next time they will have access to our bank statements, our cars (onboard nav computers telling the government where we are going, where we've been, etc), our schools, our whole livelihood could be changed.
That being said, if we are slow about pulling this law back out, and amending our laws so that such a catastrophy like 9/11 and the Patriot Act won't happen again, we will be more prepared for the next government incursion into privacy.
The whole thing needs to go. But we need to be able to explicitly say why each piece of it should go, and until we are unable to do that legally, the Patriot Act must stand as to keep what freedoms we still have. I have full confidence in our government to restore our constitution to its former glory, but we can't do that by making hair-triggered decisions like the Patriot Act, or its repeal.
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
Not everybody is trying to take his toys away... some are trying to give him better ones:
S .24.IH:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RE
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
Besides the fact that Gitmo and Soviet gulags have NOTHING in common....
True. For example, the people confined in Soviet gulags knew what they were accused of.
Who will maintain their systems then?
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
Checks ceased to be a valid form of payment here in the early 1990s (IIRC) and these days all salaries must be paid as bank transfers. Nothing to complain about it, though. Heck, I get a pre-filled tax form every year because the tax office knows exactly how much money I make, what kind of loans I have and so on. I check it, correct it, sign it and that's the tax report.
The owls are not what they seem
Apparently, since Bush is threatening to veto (although he has never used his veto to date) this legislation unless they put the provision in question back in the bill, they will do exactly that in conference committee.
A poster on the Daily Kos made mention about it, but I can't find a direct link.
Um... Is anyone in this thread aware that the PATRIOT Act came with a 5 year expiration date? If we just sit on our hands for another year-- boom, no more PATRIOT Act. Problem solved. The time limit is part of how they sold it to Congress so easily. Everyone was just like, "Hmm, sounds good. We were just attacked. And hey, it's just 5 years. We should be able to figure who did this by then." The time limit is also why the Bush administration has been pushing for a PATRIOT Act II since even before the Iraq War. Bush doesn't want to lose all his cool new ways to break the constitution, so they've been trying to get it extend for a while.
This is I think is part of the problem with PA: No one, for or against, knows what the hell it is or what's in it. My gut feeling is that some loosening of the rules after 9-11 was warranted, but the PA went too far. But can I go chapter and verse on all the problems with PA? Hell no. And probably 99% of the people commenting on this article can either. That's why it's so hard to get an honest debate about it.
I don't trust government. I think they are liars. They distract the public, to make everyone think they are doing the work of ALL people. Well, not even all, but those who work and have families.
How about this for an idea? Members of Congress hear the outrage of people, about big brother in the library keeping tabs on what you read. So in a public showdown, congress repeals the provision of the patriot act which allows government to obtain your reading list.
Act II. People forget about the other provisions of the patriot act where the FBI can search records without a court warrent, records like your bank accounts, or even your home. And even after the search, they don't tell you!!
Act III. The Education Bill is passed. What is in the Education Bill? A provision which requires libraries to keep tabs on what people read, "to better spend tax dollars".
Act IV. People disappear. Kinda like Guantanamo bay, but Americans this time. Of course, no lawyers allowed. Okay, government will cave, we'll give you a military lawyer.
Act V. Hell folks, if it gets to Act V, we're all doomed. Some say we already are.
SOLUTIONS
#1) We take all money out of politics.
As long as public office can be purchased, we are screwed. Money is being concentrated in the hands of a small minority. If it takes $7 million per Senate seat, and some believe that the NY seat will be a multiple of that amount, then who can run? Even congressional seats are over $1 million each.
If all money was removed from political contests, then it would be a level playing field for ideas. The people own the airways, we could order 10 hours for each candidate to recieve public airtime. But we don't even get ideas, we get marketing.
I think the USA is doomed. The sad part is we are causing war in every other part of the world. We want to bring to them capitalism, so the same system of buying elections can become possible.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
There's nothing to worry about until one of your friends or family members disappears.
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Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
I have several problems with the so-called Patriot Act -- as well as the efforts now undderway to extend it past its original 5-year expiration.
Primarily among these include:
1) Lack of judicial review. If you want to search my house, get a d*mn judge to approve a warrant. Doing it because "you suspect I'm a terrorist" is just flat crap.
2) Removal of freedom of speech. If I DO receive certain requests/requirements under the PA, I am *required* to comply with them, and *prohibited by law* from talking about them. And now it seems that if I *do* mention that the FBI raided my house, I can go to jail for at least a year.
3) In general, the PA goes *way* too far. Any bill which must shroud its activities in a cloud of secrecy is NOT the intent of the people who wrote our constitution. Secret pogroms smack of Nazi Germany. Of course, so does the USA, today.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
Any time they want to request a "secret" search warrent they are required to give a reason why they need to keep it secret and for how long, historicly("secret" warrent pre-date the USA PATRIOT act) this has been limited to a max of 2 months and usally is just 1-2 weeks.
If they want an extension to this they have to re-request the time proving again why it is needed.
name one US citizen that was secretly taken away by the US government never to be seen again, or even not permitted a have a lawyer plead thier cause.
Also the USA PATRIOT act does not cover what you are talking about, it deals with business records.
Funny you say that. In some jurisdictions it's actually illegal to be anonymous anymore. Sure, you can pay cash, but there's a camera watching the checkout line so if *they* want to know who is buying 2600 just look it up on the tape. That's why I "contract" to a random kid at the bookstore to buy it for me for $10 bucks. More expensive, but at least *they* don't know I'm buying 2600.
Seriously though, there was a recent case in West Virginia where a guy was arrested for wearing a Grinch mask. There's a law there prohibiting a person from disguising themselves in public. What aggravates me more than the mere existence and enforcement of such a law is that when I was talking about it with my coworkers they pretty much all said "Good -- I have nothing to fear/hide..."
The point is that this is supposed to be a FREE country. How is freedom supposed to continue when nobody has the balls to stand up and point out that we have laws on the books, namely the Patriot Act, that suppress portions of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments? If *they* can get away with this now then there's probably nothing *they* won't get away with!
You should watch Bowling for Columbine by Michael Moore. He explores how the media have made Americans afraid and jumpy in an effort to have them consume more products. It may not be truly real, but it is an interesting perspective.
How can Bush veto it? Doesn't Congress have to vote to extend the Patriot act? If Bush vetoes this, doesn't that mean the Patriot Act just expires entirely?
The only factor that is different from when the Patriot Act was originally passed is that the power of the President has begun to wane. He is a lame duck President whose Vice President isn't going to run for the top spot. The voices of the people who vote is as loud as it was then but now that voice attaches itself to votes for the next election cycle and money to campaign chests. A change in moral compasses on the part of your congressmen isn't what is happening here. They haven't suddenly decided that it's morally wrong to throw the Constitution aside along with yor rights. Nope, nothing like that. It's that your local Congressmen has to listen to you for a while again - to be reelected. So make noise now and let him know what you think of the Patriot Act. Tell him that you actually like the Bill of Rights and won't vote for someone who lets the President take it away piece by piece. This might be a good time to let your Congressman know what you think of the Guantanamo Bay Prison as well. After all, the weakness of the President in this matter is like blood in the water and those who have problems with these issues need to speak now when their voices will mean the most.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
They were a staple of Russian life. Keep the [others] fearing for their lives by killing a few (or more). Other is in brackets because they weren't killing just Jews.
The Nazis were not particarly secretive about what they were doing. They just had more propaganda about it. (The parts they didn't want you focusing on.)
As for the patriot act... Imagine a world where you CANT get away with anything, on any side. Oh the horror. The HORROR!
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Actually, militant Muslims seem to do a pretty good job of that themselves. Google for Daniel Pearl, Theo Van Gogh, Armenious murder, etc. Not to mention the racist bile spewing from the mouths of Islamic clerics in the middle east, Europe, and America. They are in collaboration with oppresive regimes like those found in Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia to direct criticism from their own failed leadership to the West. Face it - attempting to live according to the Quran has left your people in the dark ages. For example, while the rest of the civilized world has embraced women's rights, you insist on forcing them to cover themselves, walk behind you in public, forbid them to talk to other men, and even surgically remove their clitorises because you're not man enough to take care of business in the bedroom and keep them from going elsewhere for satisfaction.
"...to block the part of the anti-terrorism law that allows the government to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects."
Ah, yes, but who are the 'terror suspects'? Everyone reading books the state deems dangerous?
Eroding ones' privacy and other rights because one is merely 'suspected' is the right way to go, if you want to end up in a policestate.
But, we ALL know the state will ONLY use its powers for the purposes it is meant, without ever abusing it. History has shown this already numerous times in the past, no?
Besides, 'if you have nothing to hide, why care that your private life is being intruded', right?
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Personally, I find it ironic that we are almost totally a bread-and-circuses society already, and yet Congress wants to cut funding for NPR/PBS.
Too much education and too little 'circus' there, I guess.
http://www.moveon.org/publicbroadcasting/?t=1
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!