Physicists Clarify Exotic Force

Azazel writes "A research group, including Purdue University physicist Ephraim Fischbach, has completed an experiment which shows that gravity behaves exactly as Isaac Newton predicted, even at small scales. Unfortunately for those in search of the so-called "Theory of Everything," the finding would seem to rule out the exceptions to his time-honored theories that physicists believe might occur when objects are tiny enough."

Comments

Re:Did I miss something?

[Nos.]

Well, this is the first time I've heard of the "Casimir force" force, but reading the article linked to in the article (how's that for RTFM) explains that pretty well. Now, the prevailing "ToE" is to the best of my knowledge, string theory. This theory was developed to explain the inconsistancies with Newton's and Einstein's laws when you got down to a sub-atomic level. This study is basically saying that string theory is wrong, and that Newton and Einstein (for the most part) were right.

Now, the interesting there here is the "Casimir force" which basically, is the force of photons striking an object. We touched on this actually in high school physics. We were experimenting to find out if light was a wave of a particle. (its a wave of particles). I started to ask questions like, if that's true, wouldn't most stationary objects eventually gain mass due to a build up of photons. We never quite got into that... probably a little advanced for most people in high school physics. Sorry, back on topic. This force, becomes very powerful (comparatively) at sub-atomic levels. The force of a particle travelling at the speed of light can become very significant. In fact, it becomes more significant than gravity. So, everything as usualy, I'm not sure I'd agree, but it hopefully does get us one step closer to the ToE.

Gravity at small length scales

[dr. loser]

IAAP (I am a physicist), and here's the deal:

There are suggestions out there that one way to test for the existence of extra "compactified" spatial dimensions (the kind of stuff needed in string theories) is to look for deviations from Newton's 1/r^2 gravity at small distance scales. See, for example, here.

The problem is, it's very hard to measure just the gravitational interaction between two objects separated at micron scales. Gravity is incredibly weak compared to common forces like electrostatics and magnetic interactions, and even more exotic things like Casimir forces (related to the van der Waals interaction).

The Purdue team has shown that the measured Casimir force in their experiment acts just as expected, setting a new limit on how screwy gravity can be at these distance scales.

For what it's worth, there are two other big efforts in this area. The one at Stanford is led by Aharon Kapitulnik, and is so sensitive that their apparatus can detect the different forces on Au and Si in the earth's magnetic field due to diamagnetism (!). The one at Washington is reportedly even more sensitive, and there are rumors circulating that they may have seen something exciting.

The really cool thing here is how table-top solid state experiments may have something profound to say about high energy physics, without any big accelerators.

Re:Gravity at small length scales

[thermopile]

IAAAP (I Am Also A Physicist), and let me (humbly -- your explanation was really good) add some more meat to your description.

Physicists have a really, really hard time explaining *why* gravity is 10^42 times weaker than all other forces. (If you really want to split hairs, it's about 10^38 times weaker than the Weak Force, but what's an order of magnitude among friends?) Gravity appears to be a completely different manifestation than the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces of nature. This irks many, and they try to rectify that by a Grand Unifying Theory (GUT).

One recent shot at explaining all this was well laid out in this article in Physics Today (subscription required, sorry) from 2002. In short, it theorized that gravity exists in 11 dimensions, not just 3, over short distances. Over some distance, the force known as gravity would "collapse" back down to our traditional 3. The fact that it acted over 11 dimensions, not 3, made gravity drop off as something like 1/r^10. This could help explain the apparent weakness of gravity.

IIRC, the authors predicted that gravity would get measurably stronger at small distances, as it was acting in many dimensions at once. Towards the upper end of their estimates, they predicted that gravity could be measurably stronger at distances around 3-5 millimeters.

As I read this latest discovery, it appears to throw water on that attempt to unify gravity with everything else. Back to the drawing board.

Accumulation of photons

[jd]

Actually, that is a really important point and is partially answered by the photoelectric effect predicted by Einstein. (Photons have mass, they strike electrons, this generates current, the photon is not absorbed but now has much lower energy)

Particle/wave duality is not fully explained by thinking of light as a wave of particles, as this conflicts with observations of diffraction gratings at extremely low light intensities. It is my understanding that a "refinement" is to describe light as a single photon that exists with varying probabilities across the wave. (The wave is then a probability wave.)

QM allows objects to exist at multiple points or in multiple states simultaneously, until directly observed. If you do try to directly observe a photon, you do indeed see a single packet of energy. But if you look only at the results, you see a wave.

By looking at light as a probability wave, a lot of apparent paradoxes don't "go away" but do fit a lot better with other known apparent paradoxes, which (to me) indicates the phenomena are related and not distinct.

Getting back to gravity, we could be in for an interesting dilema here. With no variations so far detected, the theory of gravity being an exchange of particles seems less likely. Einstein's model of a distorted space/time would seem to be the more probable, at this point.

This is important, as the predicted QM model for gravity could not be compatible with Enstein's model of gravity. They could not coexist, one had to be wrong. At this point, it seems likely that the particle-exchange model is the one that is wrong, which means QM in its eventual form will likely not be 100% particle based. It may need to be a heterogenius model.

As an aside, let us assume gravity does bend space/time. Since information cannot travel infinitely fast, and as no two events can occur simultaneously, when a massive object moves, space cannot restore itself the moment the object has left. Thus, there must be something analogous to a restoring force within space/time, and therefore some parallel to Hooke's Law.

By implication, an object moving fast enough should leave a trail, where the effect of gravity on space/time is apparent, even though there is no longer any source of that gravity present. A massive-enough object may even leave some sort of "wake", similar to that of a boat, only in gravity rather than in water.

Hooke predicts an upper limit to expansion, though. Something stretched beyond a certain point cannot be restored to its original dimensions, but will rather be restored to some other state, with a much lower restoring force existing.

By implication, a sufficiently massive black hole should result in a region of permanently deformed space/time, as the expansion would exceed the Universe's ability to restore.

As far as I know, no such "massless holes" have been found, but the more the Einstinian model is verified, the more certain I am that such a thing must exist.

Correction to the above....

[dr. loser]

I succeeded in tracking down the actual paper from the Purdue folks. What they've really done is come up with a clever experimental scheme that measures the gravitational interaction independent of the Casimir force - basically it's a background-free measurement. Very slick.

What?

[HerbieTMac]

Sorry, but you are misinformed. Gravity does not warp space-time, gravity is the warping of space-time.

So, no, you will not see a "wake" of gravity because you are an observer, you will be affected by the gravity of the object at a point. Since the object itself cannot move faster than the speed of light, the gravity well will always be able to restore faster than the object moves.

You may be thinking of frame-dragging, which is a different phenomenon.

BTW, what moderator decided that this comment was "Interesting"? What I wouldn't give for a "-1, Uninformed" mod.

Re:What?

[jd]

Let's start with the easy one: Is space/time quantized? To test this, you must point a telescope at a great enough distance that the angle produced by the increment is clearly visible and clearly uniform. Have telescopes seen clearly visible and "unnaturally" uniform regions of space? Uh, yes. That's exactly what is seen in the early Universe, despite the obvious problems this would create (such as no way for structures to form). The solution to this problem is to say that we are seeing a small enough region of quantized space that variation is impossible, that we are not seeing the variation that must exist because we aren't looking at a continuun. Ergo, yes, we have observations that can best be explained by quantized space/time.

Now onto the rest of my post: The physicists at Warwick University, for the Einstein Celebration, considered my theories on relativity to actually be pretty good. :) I had produced a summary of the derivation of relativity and from that derived what overall physical phenomena must underpin the entire theory.

The quantization of space/time is guaranteed. Why? Because matter is quantized, and matter and energy are simply different facets of the same thing, energy must be quantized. (Matter is merely condensed energy, it is therefore the same stuff, just in a different state.)

If energy is quantized, then fields must be quantized, as fields define energy. If fields are quantized, then space and time are quantized, as fields are defined over these.

The scale of quantization is extremely small. A Higg's Particle is the smallest unit of matter definable, but in order to have energy to condense, the scale on which a photon itself exists must be smaller still. There may well be smaller particles in the "quantum foam", which is fine as they don't have to be stable. The Higg's Particle is stable and is likely the smallest object that can be stable.

What does that give us for scale, though? Without knowing even the theoretical mass of the Higg's Particle, that is hard to even guess at, but a guesstimate based on existing data would imply quantization of space at around about 10^-50 m, and something comparable for time.

No, you do not perceive gravity as a point source, because you are not a point. That is why objects in a gravity well will stretch. EACH point of you will experience gravity differently and not from "one source" but rather from the composite value.

(If you are between Earth and the moon, you will experience gravity from each. At the right point, you will be held stationary because the interference will produce no net force. If that were not the case, the Universe would be in serious trouble. As would most of physics, as a lot depends on overlapping fields.)

We are talking about energy differentials. It is a grave mistake of the first order to distinguish between phenomena that are, in fact, the same thing. All objects travel at the speed of light, at different angles to space/time. It is the angle that produces relativistic mass, reliativistic length and relativistic time.

This can be proved by simple trigonometry, and is likely where Einstein got the equations in the first place. Relativity is just a restating of Pythagoras, as all equations are based on the same formula: R' = sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2), where R' is the relativistic version of the variable of interest.

When re-written, this becomes R'^2 + V^2 = C^2, which is basically Pythagoras.

However, the consequence of this is both simple and profound. If all objects indeed travel at the speed of light, at different angles to space/time, and indeed relativity is nothing more than the projection onto the plane of interest, then gravity is a direct consequence of this motion through space/time.

(Relativistic mass, by this logic, is simply a force exerted at 90' to space. The distortion of space is the result of this. This means tha

Photons have mass?

[Nasarius]

Photons have mass

No! Photons have momentum. This does not imply that they have mass.

Re:Photons have mass?

[WaterBreath]

In fact, this is how you calculate momentum...
Not for photons.

This is how you calculate momentum for photons:

p = h / lambda, where lambda is wavelength.

Alternatively:

p = hf / c, where E is energy, and f is frequency.

More info here:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Photon.htm l

And here:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Energy.htm l

You can "back-calculate" a supposed mass for a photon, once you know its momentum, by using the p = mv equation. But this often called a "fictional" mass, because it is purely relativistic. If you took away a photon's speed, it would have neither mass nor momentum, and would essentially cease to exist. Mass as an fundamental physical quantity exists even in the absence of velocity. This cannot happen with a photon...

Unless you subscribe to the view that photons do not always travel at c in vacuum. But I will not argue that here. Not enough space, and I don't want to be in a flamewar.

Re:Explaining Gravity

[jpflip]

You're right that we've never observed a graviton. However, most physicists would say that this is hardly a surprise. There's no trouble explaining why - any effects of quantum gravity (any behavior where you'd have to know about gravitons and not just about general relativity) probably shouldn't kick in until the Planck energy scale (the energy scale associated with the observed strength of the gravitational force), which is something like 10^16 times greater than any energy ever achieved in an accelerator. Some theorists have come up with ways in which quantum gravity effects become manifest at lower energies (such as the extra-dimension theories the experiments in this post are designed to test), but your naive guess would be that we shouldn't have seen quantum gravity yet.

What you describe (gravity as pseudoforce) is actually something like the way gravity works in general relativity. In that theory, mass warps the fabric of spacetime. Objects travel in the straightest lines they can in this curved space, and we perceive the bends in those paths as being because of a "force" between masses. This theory has been extremely successful in explaining all sorts of large-scale phenomena (not to mention the fact that it is very theoretically beautiful).

The problem is that general relativity and quantum field theory (the theoretical framework of "particles" being exchanged that works so well for the other forces) seem to be fundamentally incompatible. General relativity is fundamentally a theory of the way the geometry of spacetime changes. Field theory is formulated on a pre-existing, static background spacetime. You get into mathematical trouble however you try to get these together.

You can continue in (at least) two ways. Particle physicists are usually more inclined to think that the field theory point of view is fundamental, and that whole geometry thing is just the way things look on large scales. This leads to string theory and the usual discussion of gravitons. If you treat the geometric point of view as more fundamental, you try quantizing spacetime and get loop quantum gravity. String theory is more popular, but no one knows what the right answer is (both may even be different points of view on the same thing!).