Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa

wbren writes "Bill Gates and Vietnam's Prime Minister Phan Van Khai have signed two 'memoranda of understanding' regarding Microsoft's presence in Vietnam, according to this AP story. They met Monday at Microsoft's Redmond headquarters for a closed door meeting and a tour of Microsoft's "home of the future". The agreement reached is expected to strengthen Vietnam's IT industry, as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers. Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record."

Comments

Re:Horrific

[I confirm I'm not a]

I'm not so much disagreeing (I agree with much of your argument), just picking up on your comments about Linux being used in places with poor human rights records: a central tenet of the GPL (and some other free software licenses) is that *no*restrictions* be placed on where the software is used. This sounds absurd, until you recall South Africa: I believe that there's still software kicking around that technically can't be used in South Africa "because of Apartheid".

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.

people look happy in Vietnam

[dario_moreno]

I just spent two weeks in Vietnam, and people look quite happy to me...and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore, especially not in shops selling bootleg MP3 and software CDs at 1$ apiece ! There even was very expensive engineering software like Patran. The good thing when you buy a Windows CD there (or DVD for 3$ ) is that when you install it, Office magically appears already configured in several languages with all extensions, as well as Photoshop or Acrobat, Norton and so on. So Microsoft is actually able to put on the market distributions competitive with Linux, usable out-of the box ! Very interesting also in Saigon-HMC : the museum of american war crimes in Vietnam (called now the Museum against war or something like that for political correctness). The very disturbing pictures of agent-orange children or torched villages help to relativize the alleged human rights violations...

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[greendot]

Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

They don't call it "Communism". That is our label. And from a political point of view, I don't know if they really see voting as that much of a benefit. The fact that you state it this way shows that you're still stuck in the 1970's.

They see their political ladder as a series of steps fueled by corruption. And guess what, they see ours the same way. And maybe they're better off because they're not dupped by lies.

I spent a year there and never once had a good argument as to why democracy was better. The only thing I could think of is that we have the freedom to protest and complain.

When you sit down with a Vietnamese person and compare notes, the USA is not the land of milk and honey. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Just start going down the list of all the different the US/state/county/city governments can enforce their will on you and I bet your list will be longer than theirs.

In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state.

I don't think that's true. I know three people who have moved within the past few years and I never heard them mention having to get cleared by the gov to do so. Maybe they did but it's such a no-brainer that it doesn't bother them.

Let alone running a successful business.

What is that supposed to mean? The business world is completely different there. There are a lot of private successful businesses... and there are successful state-run businesses. But, just like anywhere, you have to know your market. I hope you're not implying that everything is state-run.

No real criticism of the state is tolerated.

Right now, this is probably true. And to a point, it is understandable. They had a civil war. The people involved in that civil war are still alive. Most of the youth (under 30) think the government is just fine and don't complain anyway.

When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

yes, this is what you are told. They're also searching for things like child pornography. But, I don't know how thorough this is. I ordered a laptop and had it shipped to VN and was told that it would have to be inspected. It never was. It was never even turned on. And, unless they're really good with repackaging thing (and I doubt they are), it was never even opened. I only had to grease some palms to get it through w/out having to pay taxes on it, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

And about every Viet would love to move to America, if he/she could.

Nope. That is not the case. Not one of the many friends I made over there wants to come to America. One girl did arrange a marriage so she could come over and work for a few years but she is going back as soon as she can.

When I was there, my wife and I asked this question a lot, just to see how they felt. She taught English and was exposed to, what I would think would be the most prone group to want to go, students in their 20's. Most of them love American products but would not want to live here.

A few do, yes. And most of the people who do want to move here view America as a big utopia where you can do whatever you want and make as much money as you want. I'm sure if you talk to somebody in the small towns, they'll wish they could. But that is the same in any country.

No, I'm not American.

I am.

I hope you're not Viet Kieu. Before I went to VN, a lot of Viet Kieu (and older Americans who lived thru the war) tried to tell me how bad it was and how it was going to be one of the hardest years of my life. How wrong they were. It turned out to be the best.

Workaround: xtSP violator model

[Donny Smith]

>Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

Lets remind ourselves that $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR can use the loophole in (L)GPL that allows xSPs running GPL apps without abiding by the license (as they do not re-distribute the code).

Here are some workarounds for opressive governments worldwide:

a) have xSPs (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo et al) do the dirty work fo' ya (Microsoft a bit less likely to use GPL software for that, but still).
Motto: We're snitches so you don't have to be.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles /2005/06/20/tech_firms_help_tyrants_keep_their_gri p/

b) outsource IT operations to multinationals who will run GPL-ed code in any way necessary (including assisting in human rights violations) as long as it helps them make money.
I can wholeheartedly recommend IBM as they have related experience and references stretching as far back as World War II.

Re:no sense of irony

[superyooser]

You expect someone whose rights have been quashed to all of a sudden have the unimpeded right to talk about it? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In fact, you should conclude the opposite

Yes, yes indeed. Makes you wonder how we hear so many tales of torture and abuse coming out of Gitmo. You'd think they'd all be dead or shut up in dungeons never to be heard from again.