Slashdot Mirror


A Link Between Autism and Thimerosal?

tessellation writes "Environmentalist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has just published a review of evidence for the link between thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative added to vaccines until 2003) and the autism epidemic. It also details attempts by the FDA and CDC to protect the drug industry from litigation by producing favorable results rather than objective studies: '"Four current studies are taking place to rule out the proposed link between autism and thimerosal," Dr. Gordon Douglas, then-director of strategic planning for vaccine research at the National Institutes of Health, assured a Princeton University gathering in May 2001. "In order to undo the harmful effects of research claiming to link the [measles] vaccine to an elevated risk of autism, we need to conduct and publicize additional studies to assure parents of safety." Douglas formerly served as president of vaccinations for Merck, where he ignored warnings about thimerosal's risks." How often are studies successfully altered by funding agencies to conceal negative results?"

153 comments

  1. Experimenter Bias by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take 100 rats. Give 50 to a random selection of students and give them 5 tests to perform. Give the other 50 to a random selection of students and give them the same 5 tests to perform, but tell the students that these are specially bred laboratory rats which have been genetically tested to ensure they are more accurate when testing for human disease (or whatever fairy tale your students are likely to buy). The results from the second group will not match the first. There will be a statistically significant difference between them.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Experimenter Bias by Quixotic+Raindrop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Prove it.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
    2. Re:Experimenter Bias by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's called the Expectancy effect and was discovered by Rosenthal and Fode in 1963. Obviously it is not something that can be proven, but it is something that can be observed and has been time and time again since.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:Experimenter Bias by Quixotic+Raindrop · · Score: 0

      Obviously it is not something that can be proven

      Then it is a matter of conjecture. Subject to debate. Say, like Time Dilation. Oh, wait, that has been proven. Yes, "proof" in the scientific sense means "demonstrated, conforms to theory within established error parameters," but let's have at least that much.

      Put up a link to a peer-reviewed study of these poor 100 rats. Rosenthal and Fode's 1963 discovery may be a world-class observation. Personally, I'm not an expert in Rat Tester Observation. Given that, provide evidence for the effect, that can be verified and reviewed, or at least read and examined, so that I (and any others similarly situated) can decide for myself whether you are blowing smoke or not. [fake_grin=ON]

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
    4. Re:Experimenter Bias by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      seriously, it's a well known problem. I don't mean to be rude but I refer you to the literature as it were. Alternatively you can go ask any phsychology professor who probably performs the experiment every year to show his students that they are just as falible as the next guy.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:Experimenter Bias by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you don't want to put in a bit of background reading then don't talk about psychology. Piss off to some other message board and talk about reality tv or Paris Hilton. Is it too much to ask that the people who don't know what is going on bugger off and learn on their own? Is our society so spoon fed that they can't even participate in educated conversation?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    6. Re:Experimenter Bias by name773 · · Score: 1

      part of it, yeah.
      and i'm guessing the other fellow isn't in that category, strangely enough

    7. Re:Experimenter Bias by Quixotic+Raindrop · · Score: 1

      First, I didn't talk about psychology. You presented an experiment involving 100 rats, and drew conclusions that are not supported by the existing information, whereupon I asked for proof.

      Second, I specifically asked for background material; all you did was provide names, not actual information, links to information, or even citations that could have been decoded.

      Third, this 'learning on their own' thing you cite is a red herring: you expect what, exactly? That a person who is well-versed in, say, Russian Literature to automatically know to what you refer? That your 100 rat experiment is a (seemingly) canonical example of this effect, and that this is common knowledge?

      Instead of arrogantly posting what amounts to a plagarism of the study, you should probably have posted a link to the study, or its conclusions, or at least a useful explanation.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
    8. Re:Experimenter Bias by QuantumG · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I have another suggestion: fuck off and die.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    9. Re:Experimenter Bias by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 0, Troll

      You are an asshat. You may have specifically asked for background material, but one quick hit of the google bong gave me a highly informative set of results on this interesting subject. You are a troll, and should be treated as such.

      --
      People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    10. Re:Experimenter Bias by fbjon · · Score: 1

      What a great scientific debate!

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    11. Re:Experimenter Bias by Grab · · Score: 1

      Dude, he's just given you exactly what you asked for. Name of effect, who discovered it, when, etc. The whole damn works. Now either you are competent enough in that area to look this up on your own or not. If you are not competent to look in the literature and check on it, you are not competent to criticise it.

      For myself, the whole of quantum physics sounds pretty fucking bizarre, but there's no way I'm going to tell a physicist "you're talking unproveable gobbledygook" when they mention Heisenberg or whatever. ;-/

      Grab.

    12. Re:Experimenter Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude you are sound like a Christian fundamentalist. You have you own ideas, won't look up any extra information, and peope listen to you to be polite. Since you have an attentive audience you feel compelled to keep talking. Shut up, read the damn information, and get the hell off this thread.

    13. Re:Experimenter Bias by TheKidWho · · Score: 0, Troll

      Youre a douche, have you not ever heard of wikipedia? it takes whats 5 seconds to do a search on it?

    14. Re:Experimenter Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck is Quixotic? What kind of arrogant fuck uses a word like that without giving an explanation of its origin? Who the hell is this Cervantes guy? Spanish? What kind of gobbledygook is that? I bet there aren't even any translations.

    15. Re:Experimenter Bias by nortcele · · Score: 1, Troll

      Take your spoon. Go to http://google.com/ or http://wikipedia.com/. Feed yourself. It has taken you longer to complain at others here for not feeding you than it would to find it yourself. You're demonstrating the Lazy Silver Spoon effect... (and I don't have the link for that. Sorry.)

    16. Re:Experimenter Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here you go: Rosenthal, R. & Fode, K.L. (1963a). Psychology of the scientist: V. Three experiments in experimenter bias. Psychological Reports, 12, 491-511.

  2. Ow, my head! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


    > And I don't see how they can't be held liable if a link isn't found.

    Could you rephrase that with a few less n'ts?

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  3. How Tall is YOUR Soapbox? by The+Datamangler · · Score: 1

    I often write my elected national representatives (though they are not there due to my vote :( )and rant about general environmental degradation. Do they have a friend or loved one who lives a truly healthy lifestyle -veg head, orgo, exercises, blah blah blah- that got cancer of some kind? Do they wonder where it came from? How 'bout some legislation to get things back on track?

    Evil as the drug companies are, their chemo crap put me not in remission, but cured of testicualr cancer. Now I am monitored for "side effects" of the chemo drugs- like leukemia. The drug companies giveth, and the drug companies taketh away. I love a good conspiracy theory- amazing how many are true. Can't wait to see how this one plays out.

    BTW, whats wrong with an "environmentalist" with name like "Kennedy"?

    --
    sig wig dig jig rig big mig fig gig higg rig pig tig zig
    1. Re:How Tall is YOUR Soapbox? by lbmouse · · Score: 1

      whats wrong with an "environmentalist" with name like "Kennedy"?

      ...usually when a Kennedy is in the news the environment takes a back seat to political corruption and/or sexual misconduct?

    2. Re:How Tall is YOUR Soapbox? by deglr6328 · · Score: 1

      Mhmm, riiight, because very heathy people never EVER get cancer! Don't liet logic or reason sway your righteous conviction! Cancer is always caused by eeeevil environmental toxins!

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    3. Re:How Tall is YOUR Soapbox? by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      People have been getting cancer for all of human history, even when everyone ate "organic" food because there was nothing else to eat and there were no "chemicals" in the environment because we hadn't invented them yet. It happens. Life's hard sometimes.

      Chemo giveth, and chemo taketh away. I know one sufferer from lung cancer who didn't go into remission until he took himself off chemo, which was wrecking everything else in his body, and relied strictly on naturopathy and prayer. So maybe it cured you. Or maybe another less damaging cure was also available and this one just cost more and was more toxic.

      Of course, anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything either way, does it?

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
  4. Forcing drugs on kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Current US govt is so in bed with big pharm that they are putting into effect a Federal plan to mentally screen kids from 5 years on up and prescribe expensive SSRI brain drugs without parential consent.

    Before you suggest a tinfoil hat read some of the story here:

    Site on the left

    Site on the (Christian?) right

  5. Mr Kennedy's a qualified researcher now? by gusnz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This smells fishy. Especially considering most of the authors of the original 1998 study suggesting a link between the MMR vaccine and autism have apologised and had their paper retracted by the Lancet due to a conflict of interest. Furthermore, a recent study of Danish children has shown rates of autism continued to increase even after the removal of thimersol from vaccines (via a MetaFilter discussion of this topic).

    Now, don't get me wrong; it may still be the case that thimersol or some other vaccine ingredient contributes to autism. However, the balance of evidence from qualified medical researchers is against this viewpoint at the moment, and it's unethical of Mr Kennedy to start spreading what is essentially FUD unless he has the epidemiological data to back it up.

    1. Re:Mr Kennedy's a qualified researcher now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to comment on this story, but the parent here pretty much nailed it, and I have mod points to burn.

      After that post, replies should be limited to citation and discussion of the papers supporting or disproving the link.

      Unfortunatly this is Slashdot, so hello flamewar!

      /Lived with my 4 year old Autistic cousin
      //Looking for a cure, not someone to blame

    2. Re:Mr Kennedy's a qualified researcher now? by egarland · · Score: 1

      I've mentioned this before but i'll harp on it again.

      Regardless of what the truth turns out to be, something desperately needs to be changed. Medicine, for a long time now, has been a fake science. They start with the conclusion they want and work from there. Medicine is full of monopolies, conflicts of interest, and hipocrocy. The prevailing mentality that ethical issues are only important for lesser beings is a great example of the view the medical community has of itself.

      Don't believe me? Well.. then listen to the Doctors. Stop eating eggs, stop eating butter, use margerine instead and get all your booster shots. Of course that's the right thing to do. Doctors wouldn't be recommending that people do something that was BAD for them would they?

      Trust your doctor, just don't trust the guy who's telling him what to say.

      --
      set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
    3. Re:Mr Kennedy's a qualified researcher now? by arodland · · Score: 1

      Hipocrocy? What's that? Maybe you mean Hippocracy? I've heard medicine is full of that.

    4. Re:Mr Kennedy's a qualified researcher now? by NateE · · Score: 1

      The Salon article does set off smell sensors. Read this more recent PDF, 66 pages.

      http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/AutismHgPolit ics_6_23.pdf

      I find it hard to believe that people can objectively think that Thimersol didn't cause brain damage in a percentage of kids.

      1) Drug companies are very profitable and are profit driven.
      2) Government workers profiting from industry ties.
      3) Drug company products that turn out to be more harmful than they should be.
      4) Generating smoke to cloud issues in the hope of mitigating your liability in lawsuits.

      I fail to find anything on my little list that is outside the normal course for this country.

  6. Opposing viewpoints and reg-free link by SchnauzerGuy · · Score: 3, Informative
    First, a registration-free link: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/73 95411

    Then some counterpoints to the article:
    And finally, as was posted earlier, the MetaFilter thread is well worth reading before making up your mind one way or another.
  7. Half-truths by jd · · Score: 4, Interesting
    There is unquestionably a link between mercury and brain disorders - mercury is a well-known neurotoxin, and is linked to all kinds of madness and dementia, especially in the hatting industry, where mercury was used to soften felt.


    Autism is not on the list of known effects and many of those who do make the link are involved in expensive remedies that have no established effectiveness whatsoever. As such, I would regard them as being just as dubious as the American pharmaceutical industry.


    Now, it is well established that the CDC and FDA have been involved in gross coverups and scandals - not too long ago, they were caught having forged the results of "studies" in Africa on an antiviral. The results weren't merely "not good", they were utterly bogus. Further research actually showed that patients had a distinct habit of dying from the medication, which was damn inconvenient for those wanting to make a fast buck.


    It is entirely possible that certain vaccinations MAY have untoward impact on the brain - we don't know all of the allergic responses to vaccinations and have no means of predicting them in advance. (Why do you think you're asked to sit and wait, after getting shots? Because they need someone to prop the wall up?)


    However, the link is unproven to be connected with autism and if you look at the mechanics of autism, there is no reason to believe that that is where the link lies.


    Autism involves sensory overload shutting parts of the higher levels of the brain down. This is why a severely autistic child is quite capable of interacting with environments that are relatively slow-moving and over a very small fraction of the field of vision. Anything more simply puts the brain into shock.


    It is also why geeks are commonly associated with higher-functioning autism and aspergers, as computers are generally not moving a great deal. The range a person needs to contend with is vastly reduced.


    Nobody - absolutely nobody - knows the cause of autism, or how to diagnose it except empirically. There are no diagnostics beyond observing a person's responses, which is somewhat medieval. Studies of autism involving PET, CAT, fMRI or EEG devices are limited at best (I know of exactly none), so the amount of neurological data is limited.


    Autism is likely to be genetic, as couples on the autistic spectrum do seem to have a higher chance of producing autistic children, but even that is not really proven. It could equally well be dietary. No gene has been found linked to autism, despite some work in this area, which raises the possibility that there is no gene to be found.


    In the meantime, I don't suggest cutting back on vaccinations over fear of autism, though because vaccinations can have unexpected effects, I don't advise ever taking a vaccination unnecessarily. It is not something to mess with. On the other hand, superbugs, misdiagnosed lethal infections, killer viruses, etc, are considerably more lethal. If a vaccination is a live hand grenade, the pathogens we live with are a live neutron bomb.


    My advice to those concerned about any kind of mental disease is to increase your intake of follic acid to twice current recommended levels, increase your intake of fresh fruits and don't mix citric acid and vitamin C with anything with a high metal content (tea, coffee, swordfish, etc) as those two CAN (under some circumstances) increase your uptake of some of the nastier metals.


    Do that and I don't think you'll have anything to worry about. At least, nothing more than usual.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Half-truths by loose+canons · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...In the meantime, I don't suggest cutting back on vaccinations over fear of autism, ...
      That is the public reason given by CDC for bending over backwards to keep any vaccine on the market: they know, to 3 sigma, what happens if you DONT get vaccinated and, having satisfied themselves of the cost/benefit tradeoff of the vaccination, set about downplaying those sideeffects so the public wont avoid the vaccine. Only problem is, its an incredibly high stakes game for Big Pharma and the poor and poorly publicised protections against conflict of interest between FDA, CDC and Big Pharma [such as have just come to light in this article] makes it possible for the financial interest of the drug company to get better protection than the public's health. In other words, the CDC wants to do good and Big Pharma want to do well and the way our system is working, it is possible to blur the two objectives to the favor of the drug companies.

      --
      You call that a troll? I have a whole beltway full of trolls better than that!
    2. Re:Half-truths by ebh · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Studies of autism involving PET, CAT, fMRI or EEG devices are limited at best (I know of exactly none), so the amount of neurological data is limited.

      True, but this recent one is definitely of interest.

      My son is on the autistic spectrum. Our "safe side" is that we insist on thimerosal-free vaccines, but he still does get vaccinated. Even if this issue gets put to bed once and for all, we're still not going to inject mercury into our kids, for all the obvious reasons.

      The other thing we do, which is not directly connected to autism, is that in cooperation with our pediatrician, we designed our own vaccination schedules for both our kids that gets them all the standard ones, but separated over time, so that they're not getting hit with as many as five antigens at once.

    3. Re:Half-truths by avi33 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't suggest cutting back on vaccinations over fear of autism, though because vaccinations can have unexpected effects.

      The drug companies have not used it in child vaccines since 2002. In the US. As for other countries, most notably third world countries that are accepting "charitable donations" from drug companies, are stuck being guinea pigs until the true risks are discovered.

      So you've got drug companies on the one hand saying "there's no risk" and on the other hand, removing the suspect chemical and lobbying congress to make it impossible to be found liable.

      I don't think TFA would have such a sense of outrage and urgency if this hadn't been bubbling up for some time. It was on the cover of the NY Times magazine back in 2001 or so, and that article illustrated the possible risk and stated that more comprehensive studies were underway. Those studies have since been completed, and no matter how you cut it, suggest a risk. Maybe not the smoking gun that everyone needs to put this to bed, but enough of a risk that the drug companies themselves could no longer claim the lack of risk. So they removed it from the US supply, where the threat of litigation is great.

      The outrageous part of it is that the former Director of the US Pediatric Vaccination program went on record (in 97 or so) stating that we since it's not a critical component of the vaccines (it makes it cheaper to produce), and it may be a risk, it should be removed while further studies are completed. The drug companies refused to consider that possibility, as that would be close to an admission of liability.

      No tinfoil hats needed here.

    4. Re:Half-truths by dryeo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well for me the link was when my son had a MMR shot and stopped talking. His actions also changed a lot and eventually he was diagnosed with autism. There definately seemed to be a correlation.
      Interestingly my sons symptons are much the same as my own just more severe (officially I was diagnosed as oxygen starved at birth though I have an IQ in the high 140s. State of diagnoses in the late 60's)
      One other thing of interest is that my son started talking and mellowed out enourmously after cutting out all diary products from his diet. Even now it is quite obvious when he has had diary, I often surprise my wife by observing that he must of had a diary product that day and being right.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    5. Re:Half-truths by jd · · Score: 1

      That was extremely smart, as school practices are probably amongst the most dangerous outside of the third world. And going for thimerosal-free vaccines is also smart, as although I an not convinced of a link to autism, I am convinced there is a high risk of some brain disorder developing. Taking chances for the sake of taking chances (which is what the FDA does) is stupid.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    6. Re:Half-truths by dasunt · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The drug companies have not used it in child vaccines since 2002. In the US . As for other countries, most notably third world countries that are accepting "charitable donations" from drug companies, are stuck being guinea pigs until the true risks are discovered.

      So, you are weighing a known risk (risk of childhood diseases) against an unknown risk (risk that vaccines will cause autism) and assuming that there is a problem?

      In that case, let me inform you that the US population are stuck being guinea pigs because seatbelts may cause baldness.

      Sure, my critics may say that I'm massaging and misreading the data (they claim that any baldness is probably due to increased life expectency of seatbelt wearers) but do you really want to take the risk?

      Stop mandatory seatbelt laws now!

    7. Re:Half-truths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize that the FDA did recommend that all vaccines go thimerosal-free, and that this is part of the reason that people can get all of their vaccines in this form, yes? I'm not one to defend the FDA, but they don't take chances just to take chances, they take chances because they don't know any better. Same reason that they ban stuff without any evidence of its harm.

  8. Interesting article... by benjamindees · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Searching for children who had not been exposed to mercury in vaccines -- the kind of population that scientists typically use as a "control" in experiments -- Olmsted scoured the Amish of Lancaster County, Penn., who refuse to immunize their infants. Given the national rate of autism, Olmsted calculated that there should be 130 autistics among the Amish. He found only four. One had been exposed to high levels of mercury from a power plant. The other three -- including one child adopted from outside the Amish community -- had received their vaccines.
    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    1. Re:Interesting article... by Vellmont · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yah, I read that too. The problem is the "control" group he found is just terrible. The Amish lead such a different lifestyle, eat different foods (probbably not a lot of foods with preservatives, pesiticides, etc probbably don't eat a lot of high sugar foods, etc) that focusing only on one of the differences (vaccinations) seems to make the whole study meaningless.

      It could also be simply the Amish kids are diagnosed with Autism far less than non-Amish. Do the Amish go to the doctor as much?

      The article is troubling, and I'd be interested to learn more about the whole controversy, but I can't say it's very definitive.

      --
      AccountKiller
    2. Re:Interesting article... by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      People who take "medicine" are stupid and at best cure the result of disease and not a root of it.

    3. Re:Interesting article... by zentinal · · Score: 1

      Another problem with using the Lancaster Amish as a control group is their relative lack of genetic diversity (due to the founder effect, combined with restrictive marriage practices). Remember, these are the folks who had to start having arranged marriages with Ohio Amish, in order to combat an increasing incidence of Dwarfism.

    4. Re:Interesting article... by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given the national rate of autism, Olmsted calculated that there should be 130 autistics among the Amish. He found only four.

      When looking for a good control group (though, you can't really call them that in a post hoc study), you want them as similar as possible to the treatment group.

      The Amish live a radically different lifestyle from your typical American. Does their low Autism rate result from a low vaccination rate? Does it result from using minimal, if any, AC power? Pesticides? Growth hormones in meat? Formaldahyde from common modern building materials? I could go on.


      One had been exposed to high levels of mercury from a power plant. The other three -- including one child adopted from outside the Amish community -- had received their vaccines.

      Here, you have a very strong selection bias. You have four people. Three of them received immunizations; how many others received immunizations? Lower than average, but certainly more than three. One lived near a power plant; how many others lived near a power plant? And if none of them lived near a power plant or received immunizations, do you suppose a motivated investigator could have found other potential sources of mercury exposure? How about a school chemistry lab? An old thermometer? The ever-popular "high local levels" in the ground?


      Personally, I do suspect a link between mercury and autism. It might not even have anything to do with thimerosal, just a side effect of our massive all-around habit of polluting the hell out of our water, air, soil, and food. But a post hoc study of a radically different so-called "control" group with findings justified by a glaringly obvious selection bias - No. Sorry, but even the Bush administration could spot science that bad.

    5. Re:Interesting article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm just an anonymous coward and you have no reason to believe what I say if you don't want to, but I think it might be interesting anyway.

      I am a high functioning autistic, and for many years longed to live with the amish. I never did anything about it, since I am not religiously compatible with them, but if I was I probably would have tried to live with them. I think that somebody like me who lived with the amish would never even know that they were on the autistic spectrum due to the fact that they have a very well ordered and calm life style. For all we know they might have twice the autistic population as normal, but only a small number of them actually have problems because of it.

    6. Re:Interesting article... by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      Good point. I was wondering the same thing about other highly religious groups. The article claims autism arose in the 50's, but could it have existed before then, disguised in monasteries or some such?

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    7. Re:Interesting article... by TheMadcapZ · · Score: 1

      Actually that is why they are the perfect group. It shows that even with a healthy lifestyle of eating organic foods and grass fed meats that children injected with vaccines still developed autism. I find that rather compelling

    8. Re:Interesting article... by relaxrelax · · Score: 1


      The routine life, as well as ideology and possibly lesser trust in doctors, all play roles in possibly making the Amish diagnosis less likely.

      Not to mention genetics.

      And by the way. Why not look the other way? Look at minamata and other mercury-related disasters. Count the autistics there!

      --
      Microsoft is pure dog-ma. FreeBSD is pure cat-ma.
    9. Re:Interesting article... by mbrewthx · · Score: 1

      Well.. I should stop my Plavix, digoxin, Veralan, iron, and asprin that I take because of my Congenital Heart Defect.

      Yes people take medications when they shouldn't but stating it a blanket way that you have tells me that either your uninformed person or Tom Cruise.

      --
      __________ Leave me alone I'm compiling a RPG II program on my S/36...Thanks to metamucil I'm a Regular Meta Moderator
  9. Re:Art Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    While I agree that your typical drug company is about as evil as it gets,

    Such exaggerations don't help anyone and what's worse is that they may discourage the young and clever from going into an industry where such people can do a lot of good.

  10. you're missing the point by cahiha · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I agree with you that the data and results are "fishy". But you are asking the wrong question. Kennedy doesn't have to be a "qualified researcher" in order to publish something in Salon.com, even something with scientific content. Salon.com is not a scientific journal, it's an on-line magazine for journals and writers, and Kennedy qualifies as one of those. Furthermore, anybody who has not been living under a rock for the last several decades will know his background and status.

    As a scientists, I hope the day will never come in which only "qualified researchers" can publish on controversial issues. Voting age citizens are supposed to be able to comprehend, judge, and evaluate information for themselves.

    1. Re: you're missing the point by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > Kennedy doesn't have to be a "qualified researcher" in order to publish something in Salon.com, even something with scientific content. Salon.com is not a scientific journal, it's an on-line magazine for journals and writers, and Kennedy qualifies as one of those.

      Strictly speaking he doesn't have to be a "qualified researcher" in order to publish in a scientific journal either, so long as he does his homework, justifies his method of collecting data, and draws his conclusions by applying sound reasoning to the data.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:you're missing the point by gusnz · · Score: 4, Insightful
      As a scientists, I hope the day will never come in which only "qualified researchers" can publish on controversial issues.
      Relax, I agree he has the right to write articles on the issue regardless of his qualifications; it's a free world. I do, however, think that he should fairly represent the current state of research, or at least acknowledge that the point is undecided, rather than writing as if the evidence is 100% against thimerosal. Quoting Page 2 of his article:

      From the very beginning, the scientific case against the mercury additive has been overwhelming.

      That's not exactly balanced. Furthermore, above that he writes:

      It was only after reading the Simpsonwood transcripts, studying the leading scientific research and talking with many of the nation's preeminent authorities on mercury that I became convinced that the link between thimerosal and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real.

      It's unethical for someone who has studied the "leading scientific research" and talked "nation's preeminent authorities" to so misrepresent the preponderance of evidence and the positions of those who disagree with him; he cites and dismisses "some skeptics" in the paragraph after my quote as believing the increase in autism prevalence is due to better diagnosis, which may be true, but doesn't even mention such "skeptics" may think the cause of the increase remains totally unknown!

      In addition there's a lot that contravenes common sense. For instance:

      In 1930, the company tested thimerosal by administering it to 22 patients with terminal meningitis, all of whom died within weeks of being injected.

      Patients with terminal meningitis died? As in "terminal" meaning "incurably near death"? Who would've thought?

      I could go on and on for a while, but I hope my point has been made. If you're a notable public figure writing on a contentious issue, you have an obligation to present the evidence in a balanced manner, rather than picking and choosing your sources to prop up your own biases and conclusions.
    3. Re: you're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Strictly speaking he doesn't have to be a "qualified researcher" in order to publish in a scientific journal either, so long as he does his homework, justifies his method of collecting data, and draws his conclusions by applying sound reasoning to the data."

      When he does all that, he is a qualified researcher.

    4. Re:you're missing the point by cahiha · · Score: 1

      I agree he has the right to write articles on the issue regardless of his qualifications

      Well, I'm glad that you do. It's not what the grandparent post said.

      it's a free world. I do, however, think that he should fairly represent the current state of research, or at least acknowledge that the point is undecided,

      Sure, but that's a very different statement from the original one; now you are criticizing the article on content, not authorship.

    5. Re:you're missing the point by Grab · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, Salon.com should not be publishing articles which contain untrue information. "From the start, the evidence against it was overwhelming"? Oh yes?

      Scientific journals tend to (or are supposed to) carry out some factual checking on article content before publishing. Salon.com apparently just published without checking. Kennedy is claiming an ability to spot connections which is not backed up by evidence, or by a superior scientific ability.

      If this were an editorial expressing one person's opinion, then fine - but responsible journalism requires that it is made clear this is all it is. This is presented as a factual evidence-based investigation, which it clearly is not. If Salon is just a blog, then fine. But if Salon claims to be a reputable news source, which it does, then it's screwed beyond belief.

      You're correct - anyone should be able to submit stories on anything. However it is grossly incompetent and unethical for a magazine to publish articles of this nature. My beef is not with Kennedy (hell, he can submit stories claiming he's the second coming of Elvis, and I'll not worry about it) but with Salon for printing such easily-disproved rubbish and passing it off as factual content.

      Frankly though, this doesn't surprise me. It's been a very long time since I've seen anything worth reading on Salon. It's just another blog these days. "Online magazine"? Don't make me laugh.

      Grab.

    6. Re: you're missing the point by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to do all that either. He just needs to be reviewed. Of course it helps to get reviewed if he'd have done all of that.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    7. Re:you're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by chance there is anyone in the world who believes that had his name been Schicklegruber, that his opinion would have been published, I have some ocean front propterty to sell at an attractive price.
      I have daughter with a form of autism. Family medical history precluded her from the normal shot regimen. She never saw this additive. The subject is close to my heart.
      If Mr. Kennedy is speaking the truth on this or any other matter, except by accident, I'd be astonished.

    8. Re:you're missing the point by kargis · · Score: 2, Insightful
      As a scientists, I hope the day will never come in which only "qualified researchers" can publish on controversial issues. Voting age citizens are supposed to be able to comprehend, judge, and evaluate information for themselves.


      Although I agree with this in concept, the problem here is not that people shouldn't be allowed to have their opinions and discuss controversy, but rather that when people read stuff like this, that claims geniune scientific method and discovery without having either, they grow worried about vaccines. This not only endangers their own children, which depending on the laws of the state they live in, etc., is their business, but creates a public health risk -- people who are immunosuppressed due to illness, old age/young age, aren't vaccinated due to being too young, or have other immune problems are at risk of dying because people decide not to have their kids vaccinated because of some junk written at salon.com.

      Worse yet, if they don't get the vaccine and the child has a negative outcome from getting measles, mumps, or rubella, I'm sure they can still sue the doctor, even if we beg them to reconsider at the time and document our disagreement with their refusal of the vaccine. Laypeople have a right to information, a right to discussion, a right to refuse care, but then why do they get to retain the right to blame us if their decisions go badly?

      Further, I don't pretend to understand the inside of my car, or the electrical wiring in my house enough to be able to render an accurate judgement. Medical science is not any different from any other technical field -- yes any person of age can read the information (if they're literate), but can they really understand it, and do they know which sources are accurate and which are not?

      Kargis Strong, MD
      (Pediatrician)
    9. Re: you're missing the point by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > When he does all that, he is a qualified researcher.

      Good point.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    10. Re:you're missing the point by cahiha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes any person of age can read the information (if they're literate), but can they really understand it, and do they know which sources are accurate and which are not?

      When these people go to the voting booth and vote on issues like health care, national defense, social security, and the justice system, they need to make the same kinds of evaluations of expert opinions, and they decide over the life and death of hundreds of thousands of other people every year. If we entrust people with that responsibility at the voting booth, they should face the same responsibility within their own family or have to live with the consequences.

      are at risk of dying because people decide not to have their kids vaccinated because of some junk written at salon.com.

      The cause isn't salon.com, it's the lack of critical thinking by the parents. If you want to address that, improve the education system.

      Trying to eliminate undesirable actions based on bad information is hopeless; the Chinese and Soviets tried it and failed, and they had a lot more control than you do.

      I'm sure they can still sue the doctor, even if we beg them to reconsider at the time and document our disagreement with their refusal of the vaccine.

      Of course, they can sue you. Any of your patients can sue you at any time. The question is whether they would win, and I find that doubtful if you did your job.

    11. Re:you're missing the point by arodland · · Score: 1

      I think you should go back and reread the grandparent. "Furthermore, a recent study" ... "the balance of evidence" ... "epidemiologial data to back it up" -- every part of that post seems to be dealing with the article's content; at one point it mentions the author by name, but at no point makes any statement about the author.

  11. irrelevant here by cahiha · · Score: 2, Informative

    First of all, I should say that I don't believe the hypothesis to be true based on the data presented.

    However, while observer bias is an issue in many studies, it probably wasn't one here: it did not involve an experiment in which experimenters could have shown bias; the hypothesis ("thimerosal causes autism") wasn't even known or stated during data collection.

    1. Re:irrelevant here by Intron · · Score: 1

      So there is an objective test for autism? Last I checked, the diagnosis was fairly subjective. That leaves a door wide open for experimenter bias.

      "Four current studies are taking place to rule out the proposed link between autism and thimerosal"

      Sounds like the conclusion of the study had already been decided.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    2. Re:irrelevant here by cahiha · · Score: 1

      So there is an objective test for autism? Last I checked, the diagnosis was fairly subjective. That leaves a door wide open for experimenter bias.

      Come on, don't be so naive: such studies don't involve people driving around diagnosing patients. These kinds of epidemiological studies are based on patient records. The diagnoses were made years ago by qualified doctors who knew nothing then about the hypothesis being tested today.

      "Four current studies are taking place to rule out the proposed link between autism and thimerosal" Sounds like the conclusion of the study had already been decided.

      No, that's the accepted way of doing statistics in the medical sciences: you formulate a hypothesis and you test it.

    3. Re:irrelevant here by Nutria · · Score: 1

      No, that's the accepted way of doing statistics in the medical sciences: you formulate a hypothesis and you test it.

      We all (hopefully) agree that that is the Scientific Method, but since statistics can be made to say anything you'd like, I wonder if bias flaws these kinds of studies from the beginning?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    4. Re:irrelevant here by Intron · · Score: 1

      Have you ever read a patient record? There is no checklist with yes/no boxes for autism. There will be some vague wording like: "mild social interaction disorders and speech problems suggest borderline autism". OK, Mr. Unbiased Researcher, is that a yes or a no?

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    5. Re:irrelevant here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then it will have a diagnostic code like F84.0 (Childhood Authism), F84.1 (Atypical Authism).

      That's how you can search through the journals and get the names/numbers of patients whith authism.

      Quite close to yes or no.

  12. Re:Art Bell by Seumas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Riiiight.

    The RIAA charges $17 for a CD and you call it "over priced" and "evil". Drug companies fix pricing so that they're more expensive than hard core narcotics and they're an "industry that does a lot of good".

    Funding research for you to exploit isn't "doing good". It's just a matter of "doing business".

  13. Re:Art Bell by Curtman · · Score: 1

    "Drug companies fix pricing so that they're more expensive than hard core narcotics and they're an "industry that does a lot of good"."

    What I find interesting is the difference in price of those drugs on either side of the US/Canada border. Why doesn't the US adopt a similar policy of restricting their price? They are addicted to the economic benefits of the situation they have created in selling out their own citizens. Particularly the less fortunate ones.

    You can't trust any corporation to do anything that doesn't directly increase their revenue stream, its just not in their nature. We have to put restrictions on them if we want them to play fair.

  14. Much more research is needed. by lazy+genes · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Many savants lose thier skills when they are forced to improve their socual and comunication skills.Autism is different than brain damage due to toxins.Many high functioning autistic people do not want to be cured.I think that normal people waste too much energy discriminating against others that are different.Too much mercury intake causes brain dammage, not autism.Riding a motorcycle without a helmet may cause brain dammage, not autism.

  15. Re:Art Bell by TobascoKid · · Score: 2, Informative

    Even a layman could have guessed that autism is often (if not always) the result of environmental factors.

    Except that there's a lot of evidence that shows that autism is the result of genetic factors.

    --
    At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
  16. Re:Art Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drug companies fix pricing so that they're more expensive than hard core narcotics and they're an "industry that does a lot of good".

    The fact that people are willing to pay so much is proof that they're doing a lot of good.

    Funding research for you to exploit isn't "doing good". It's just a matter of "doing business".

    It's both.

  17. Some cancer info. by KamaDragon · · Score: 1
    Do they have a friend or loved one who lives a truly healthy lifestyle -veg head, orgo, exercises, blah blah blah- that got cancer of some kind? Do they wonder where it came from?

    Cancer is a natural inevitability. If you live long enough, you will get cancer. While certain activities may reduce or increase the risk of uncontrolled cellular growth, there is no way to be 100% safe.

    Cancer is the result of genetic mutation that leads to uncontrolled cellular growth. By stepping outside you are exposing yourself to radiation that has the potential to mutate your DNA and cause cancer.

    When a cell divides, it creates copies of its chromosomes. There are an incredible number of ways for this process to fail. And though there are a large number of safeguards to prevent this, it is not impossible to have an error in the copying process. These errors most certainly can cause cancer.

    So, while the risk of cancer is increased with certain activities, no one should feel invincible if they are organic vegan exercise enthusiasts.

    --
    -KD
    1. Re:Some cancer info. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you do realise a simple addition to the diet of two apricot seeds per day stalls *all* cancers?. that's something the drug companies don't want you to know. A simple vitamin present in few foods (but concentrated in the kernel of apricots) is all that is needed to prevent all cancers

      try googling it

    2. Re:Some cancer info. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or try googling laetrile. In general it has been discredited, but then again these socks do seem to keep the sharks away from my horse.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetrile

  18. Irresponsable. by vrimj · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Even if Kennedy is right (despite convincing evidance to the contrary) thimerosal is now out of the US vaccine supply.

    I doubt most readers of this article will notice that point. They are probably only going to notice the "vaccines make your kids sick" argument.

    This might lead to more people who are susceptable to serious diseases, the kind of contagious diseases that we have not often seen in my lifetime.

    When I was a teen my city had a minor flare up with Measles, largely among older teen and college kids whose immunity from childhood vaccines had atrophyed. Measels sounds benign, but "as many as 1 out of 20 children with measles gets pneumonia. About 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will get encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave your child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it."

    Vaccines have a failure rate, it is not a concern as long as the general population is well protected so the disease cannot spread. Discouraging people from getting vaccinated puts innocent lives at risk.

    My grandmother died from Hep B, something that a vaccine would have prevented. I wonder how many people might die from preventable diseases due to this article.

  19. Think? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Part of the drug price in the US goes to subsidise the lower profit in Canada.

    1. Re:Think? by Curtman · · Score: 1
      "Part of the drug price in the US goes to subsidise the lower profit in Canada."

      Well thanks very much on behalf of Canadians. If I were a US consumer, I would be mad as hell about that. Especially if I was one who was in need of the medication.

      [Special note for the rednecks: Do not take this to mean you should liberate Canada. Fix your system instead.]
    2. Re:Think? by phoenix.bam! · · Score: 1

      Biggest load of PR garbage ever. Most money drug companies spend is on marketing the designer drugs. Not on research and certainly not because of lower profit. What the hell does lower profit even mean? If you are making profit no matter how much it is you are making back more than your costs so you are making money. There is no need to subsidize something that is profitable!
      Take a look at the chart Chart about halfway down.

    3. Re:Think? by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Fix your system instead.

      Or maybe you should ask any economist slightly to the right of Lenin whether price controls work.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    4. Re:Think? by Curtman · · Score: 1

      "maybe you should ask any economist slightly to the right of Lenin whether price controls work"

      I'll do that. It would also be a good idea for you to look at what other countries do, and see how many of them use the US model of a free market for pharmaceuticals.

      You can worship the free market system if you like. Don't pretend it's the answer to everything though, because it's not.

      Drug re-importation would also help correct your system, but do it from somewhere else. You can't epect a nation of 30,000,000+ to support the pharmaceutical requirements of your nation alone.

      It's a shame you don't have the same right to health care found elsewhere in the world.

  20. My personal experience with my son and MMR. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    All I know is that my son, as a baby, was starting to put blocks neatly in a row (an important developmental step) before his MMR shot. A week after his shot, he couldn't do it anymore and regressed about 5-6 months behind.

    He wouldn't talk until he was 4, then all he would say is "Hi, I'm , I'm 4". Seriously, that's all he would say along with maybe a yes or no. He called both his mom and me "dad" for about a year.

    He's not full-blown autistic, but he is on the autistic spectrum. He's a special case, because he's apparently "borderline" on about a dozen different things, which makes it very difficult to get help because he's not actually diagnosed with autism.

    All I know is that after the MMR, I lost my little boy, and I'm just starting to get him back now. I've really missed him since he's been gone these past 5 years.

    1. Re:My personal experience with my son and MMR. by Dahan · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm sorry to hear that your son's development has been set back by something. However, I doubt it has anything to do with thimerosal, seeing that the MMR vaccine used in the US, MMR II from Merck, has never contained thimerosal. Thimerosal was used in DTaP (diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis), hepatitis B, and influenza vaccines.

    2. Re:My personal experience with my son and MMR. by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Sounds much the same as my and my sons experience except he called my and I mom. At about 5 I tried presserising him to call me something other then mom and I became Ona. Now at 10 he still calls me Ona.
      Anyways the timing of his regression was right after his MMR and he didn't restart talking until almost 6.
      He was also very frustrated with not being able to talk and we even started him on sign language. In school they introduced paper icons for him to use for communication and eventually we cut out all diary products and he started talking.
      One thing I'd advise to anyone with an autistic child is to try removing all diary from his diet.
      I've also heard of good results with removing gluton though it is much harder. Even Apples have gluton on them in the wax.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    3. Re:My personal experience with my son and MMR. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does only one thing cause cancer?

      Just because MMR doesn't contain thimerosal doesn't mean that thimerosal isn't a factor in causing autism.

      The research specifically on MMR that found a link between MMR and autism is actually quite good, when you're not a paid shill for the vaccine manufacturers.

      Isn't bile a common means of mercury excretion? And if MMR were mucking up the intestinal tract enough to allow mercury or other heavy metals back into the bloodstream, rather than out with the feces, couldn't that also then show a "cause"?

      (Not saying this is the case, BTW -- just a possibility, since we're all armchair scientificating at the moment.)

      The research on MMR that implicated it in autism showed that the bodies of these kids were showing an autoimmune response against their own intestinal tracts, and that the modified measles virus (the one in MMR) was thriving in the intestinal tract where the autoimmune response was occurring. Now we need follow up, but *damn* it's hard to get couch skeptics to overcome inertia, and we might as well be back with the church and Galileo, trying to get someone to just look through the fucking telescope! Will you please JUST FUCKING LOOK?!?

  21. It's not limited to /. by QMO · · Score: 1

    Scientific debates often work this way in universities too.

    --
    Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
  22. Chelating? by DamienMcKenna · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of the surprising apsects of autism is the number of people who have had dramatic recovering from it by chelating metals out of their body - quite surprising indeed.

    Damien

    1. Re:Chelating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure?

    2. Re:Chelating? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I suggest you visit this site. http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/t himerosal.html

      Chelation to treat autism is about as useful as a tinfoil hat. Why would you take the word of a site that is clearly for the Chelation industry?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Chelating? by TheMadcapZ · · Score: 1

      Just because some information is posted on a site called quackwatch does not make it the be all end all. People must judge for themselves, look at both sides, analyze the information and form your own conclusion. I personally feel the medical establishment is way off. The medical system is only good for emergency medicine. Humans were not meant to live dependent on drugs. Hippocrates once wrote "Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food" After years of searching for a big chunk of the answer regarding healthy living I believe one man is just about on target. http://www.mercola.com/ The point is use your mind, analyze all the information available and go with what feels right.

    4. Re:Chelating? by MoralHazard · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot.

      Just because some information is posted on a site called quackwatch does not make it the be all end all.

      And just because some information is posted on a site about chelating does not make it the be all end all. But you know what? I'm much more inclined to trust Quackwatch, because they don't have a financial interest in convincing you that anything on their site is true. Whereas the chelating site sells more of their crap for every person (like you) who buys into their nonsense.

      Did you notice something really significant about his "autism study"? There's no control group in the study, and therefore his numerical results are ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS. How are we supposed to know whether the chelating treatment makes any real difference unless there's a double-blind study with a control group?

      People must judge for themselves, look at both sides, analyze the information and form your own conclusion.

      Right. And in your corner, we have this bullshit website you linked to. And in the corner of accurate and responsible medical information, we have EVERYBODY ELSE. But you're free to come to the wrong conclusion.

      I personally feel the medical establishment is way off. The medical system is only good for emergency medicine. Humans were not meant to live dependent on drugs. Hippocrates once wrote "Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food"

      Nice hat--but shouldn't you be a little more concerned about the health effects of tinfoil on your scalp? I hear it causes hair loss.

      Seriously, though... Modern medicine has one incredibly important tool at its disposal that trumps all its other contributions to human health: The double-blind statistical study. That's the only way to know whether a treatment actually works, does nothing, or makes people worse. Anecdotal evidence (which is all a study without a control group is) can never provide those answers.

      Modern medicine is based on modern science: you have to prove your claims through valid experimentation, such that other can repeat your experiments and obtain agreeable results. You have to present a theory to the world as "Come and try to prove me wrong, or show that I made a mistake" with wide open arms. You only get called "right" when a whole lot of learned people try to do exactly that, and can't.

      This is the system that gave us, in less than 100 years: vaccinations (saving millions of lives), effective surgery, genetic engineering and therapies, and birth control.

      Don't like drugs, do ya? Well this is also what gave us the correct idea of how to exercise and eat right. The stuff your doctor tells you about how to live longer and healthier is based on science, nowadays.

      You can distrust the medical establishment all you want. I'll admit that there's profit motivations corrupting large aspects of it, and mistakes get made. But what you're describing is the Dark Ages, man--it's fucking medievalism.

    5. Re:Chelating? by TheMadcapZ · · Score: 1

      Your Right. God forbid anything natural would be good for us, what was I thinking, down with nature, what does it know, it has only been around SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME. Yes the past 100 years have been fabulous, with the advent of heart disease, strokes, cancer, etc.. What a great time we live in. Silly of me to think that nature would provide us with optimum health and immunity with the right combinations of organic foods and grass fed meats. Of course not, sugar, vegetables oils, and especially hydrogenated vegetables oils (yummy) are the answer to long life. Fuck all that shit, shoot me up with drugs so the companies can get rich, so I can have a long miserable life dealing with the side effects that are worse than the symptom it treats. On that note, I hope you enjoy your future bout with heart disease right up till the heart attack gets you, ass puppet!

    6. Re:Chelating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the point in living a long life? Seriously. He'll be dead of a heart attack before long, but you'll be an asshole for even longer.

  23. So true by QMO · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I had scarlet fever in high school, and got completely over it (including rheumatic fever and hives) in a couple of weeks.
    My grandfather had scarlet fever in high school and it took him more than a year to get over it.

    Too bad they made me get a penicillin shot. I probably would have been cured much quicker without it, like my grandfather.

    --
    Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
    1. Re:So true by jthayden · · Score: 2, Funny

      My father always said laughter was the best medicine. That's probably why all of my siblings are dead.

  24. What a waste. by hubs99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The link between thimerosal is shaky at best. There have countless studies looking at populations like the swedes who removed ALL thimerosol from their vacines and still had the same number of autism cases. Autism is not going to be an easy fix. Parents of autistic children focus on mercury and other contaminates because there are pathological similarities between mercury poisoning and autism. Someone is eventually going to bring up the research who found a strain of rats that were deathly allergic to thimerosal so I want to touch on this too. This population of rats was screen for their allergy to thimerosal. It would be like taking a population of dogs who were allergic to cats, and breeding those dogs which had the worst allergies to the cats, Repeat indefinetely as rats/mice can breed every 2 weeks or so. Also this research will not allow any one else to use these mice as they are a patented strain of mice and the last I heard he wasn't going to allow outsiders to use them because he wanted first crack at all possible research from them. This crusade against thimerosal is based on peoples ignorance and inability to erlationally look at the evidence. It is a quick way to blame for a illness that no one is at fault for. 30 yaers ago people blaimed distant mothers as the cause of autism.

    1. Re:What a waste. by FullCircle · · Score: 1

      The fact that you can patent a breed of animal is scary enough.

      --
      If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
  25. Obvious problem really by GeckoX · · Score: 1

    Why are all of the studies that are being funded designed to prove that there is _no_ link between them?

    Who is funding these studies and how can anyone involved claim this to be sound scientific research when the research itself starts off with a bias?

    I'll feel better about this after some proper unbiased research has been done.

    --
    No Comment.
  26. Re:Art Bell by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
    And therein lies the core of the issue. Perhaps it is both?

    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  27. Timerisol - established 100% link to autism by feltdd · · Score: 1

    Earlier research intentionally did NOT include mice which had known immune system defects. In the experiments by Dr. Mady Hornig, the mice which were known to have immune system problems ALL developed the mouse version of autism - 100%.
    Which begs the question - why did the first group of studies use only mice with no known problems, and where did the funding come from for those studies? The earlier studies knew about Dr. Hornig's study, and intentionally did not use it in their work. Sounds as if they knew what results they wanted! This all means that, if a young child does have immune system problems, receiving injections containing mercury is far more likely to cause neurological damage - which the "establishment", protecting the drug companies, does not want known. Why did mercurochrome, a painless germ killer we all used as kids, disappear from the market in the ? 60?

  28. Orac Knows! by benploni · · Score: 1

    And shreds this crap. Read and learn.

  29. Changed Data by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 1

    "How often are studies successfully altered by funding agencies to conceal negative results?"

    From my experience in other fields, this would be a regular occurrance.

    At one time I was a chief engineer for a commercial AM radio station, a new construction in the same area that Marconi orignally used for his US experiments. After construction, field strength measurements showed excellent protection for the dominant station on the frequency about a hundred miles away -- in fact they were so good, they were at the lower limit of the theoretical values based on the data for the area published by the FCC.

    So I signed off on the permit for permanent license. But management would not allow the data to be sent. Their argument was that the values found could not be duplicated by another engineer and might change due to climate change, raising or lowering of the aquifer, etc. and would I raise the values in the application?

    In fact, I was being asked to change the data of an experiment, which data was to be sent to the FCC, where it would be added to the data provided by others. Thinking the pool of data the FCC uses might be polluted by political rather than scientific considerations, I refigured my results using Marconi's old values instead of the FCC's and found Marconi's values fit the experiment MUCH better than the FCC's.

    The answer is, YES, data are changed routinely. I am only glad the atomic clock and the meter stick cannot easily be played with for political gain.

    Trust the governemt's data NOT. It will just get you involved in a metaphorical Iraq, looking for WMDs.

  30. Re:Art Bell by avi33 · · Score: 3, Funny

    And I don't see how they can't be held liable if a link isn't found. After all, if a woman is a crackhead or drinks a lot, she can be held accountable for her child's defects (and negligence).

    A crackhead can't get a rider written into the Patriot Act or an Omnibus spending bill, as the pharmaceutical industry has.

  31. Whistleblowing in Salon?! by freality · · Score: 1

    I feel like it kind of defeats the purpose of breaking a major public health story to release it in Salon, where you have to decide to be advertised to (by perhaps a major pharma? I'll never know) before you can take up arms against overbearing corporatism.. wtf?

    1. Re:Whistleblowing in Salon?! by ate50eggs · · Score: 1

      contrarywise, it's a neat trick for getting corporations to fund negative PR against corporatism.

      --
      not everything is a science experiment!
  32. Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There are no more slow children. They need to get labels like "autistic" or "learning disabled." Now they're special!

    And what's the cause of these age-old problems? Must be the Vaccines! After all, they all have that in common.

  33. Duh! by stevew · · Score: 1

    The son of one of my closest friends has Asberger syndrome ( a relative of autism - sometimes it is classified as a form of autism). Well guess blinkin what. He has a hyper-sensitivity to Mercury which was used as the preservative in his innoculations a few years ago. He has been undergoing treatment for heavy metal poisoning for a couple of years now and it IS helping...though not a cure.

    Further, it turns out that the drug companies continued to use the mercury based preservative for upto two years AFTER they said it was gone from the product!

    Who is at fault here?

    We won't bother to go into what it took to get the diagnosis of Mercury poisoning from conventional medical practitioners here...just say ALOT!

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
    1. Re:Duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      IAAP (Psychologist), and I've worked with hundreds of children with all sorts of neuropsychological problems, many of these being Autistic-Aspergerish in nature.

      I am not commenting directly on your son's friend's case, as I haven't even met them, and all sorts of things happen to cause problems for children. Heavy metals do cause massive neurological problems in children, and I have seen the effects. Having said that:

      It is extremely common in the Autism-Asperger's communities for families to come up with all sorts of explanations, and to be victims of all sorts of charlatanry. These families love their children, and are deeply troubled by the problems they and their children have due to Autism-Asperger's spectrum problems. The children are generally wonderful and normal in more ways than not, but wrestle with serious social and emotional difficulties that pain the families to watch. These families will do anything that might work, and because they often have the money, can do anything that might work. As a result, they become the victim of all sorts of wild speculation and hoodwinkery.

      In my experience, one of the most common examples of this charlantry is heavy metal testing. It's not uncommon that parents will hear about some place to do heavy metal testing. They'll do the test, and some "expert" will send a report to them on it. Generally these reports always claim that there's elevated levels of some heavy metal in the child. However, if you go to some independent source, and have them review the report, they'll tell you that the levels are well within--even well below average levels for children. Often the elevated "heavy metals" listed won't just be well below average levels, but won't be heavy metals at all, or will be metals that are actually beneficial medically or, at least, unrelated in any sense to any documented illness.

      Nevertheless, because they have this "report" to hold onto, parents will explain to others how their child was "tested and found to have elevated sensitivity to/levels of/exposure to heavy metals." These parents aren't stupid, or irresponsible, they're just victims of people who are taking advantage of their distress and desparation.

      You don't have to be a large greedy corporation to make money off of people's misery without scientific data to back you up.

  34. Rate parent up by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 1

    People want something to blame for their troubles and scary chemicals have replaced the fairies and witches that the same people would have blamed 100 years ago.

    To claim that a particular child's disease was caused by mercury in their vaccine is to ignore and disparage the millions of children who were saved from disease by that same vaccine; not to mention it ignores those countries that have stopped using mercury in their vaccines yet haven't seen a drop in the occurrences of autism.

  35. The last study I read said by skintigh2 · · Score: 1

    there was a direct correlation between the amount of mecury pollution in the area and the rate of autism in the area. Here's a randomly chosen link:

    http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/34AD7ABA-F1 F1-4677-9A24-CEB4FA637690.htm

    Anyway, if it really was the vaccines (which I find higly unlikely) then shouldn't we have had a HUGE drop off in autsim rates over the last few years?

  36. for a scientists perspective: by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1
    --
    This space available.
  37. In brief.... by RatPh!nk · · Score: 3, Informative
    Ok, I am a 2nd year medical student and a researcher here at my university. I have a B.S. in Biochemistry, so I'd like to think I know a little about something :) First the molecule itself, thimerosal To say this molecule contains mercury is akin to saying triclosan has chlorine (it does). You are talking about breaking a C-Hg or a S-Hg bond which unless enzymatically activated, may be tough for your body to pull off due to the bond energies involved. Also, you would need an enzyme with some specificity for this molecule, or a specific transporter to move this across the endo/epithelial borders. It raises some questions even at face value, to say the least.
    Here is the brunt of the IOM study/panel:

    A 14-person panel of experts urged more research on autism but said further pursuit of possible links between vaccines and the devastating neurological disorder is probably not worth the money and effort. Reports published in 2001 by the same committee found no connection between the MMR vaccine and autism, and insufficient evidence to draw conclusions about thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative added to multiple-dose vials of vaccine. Since then, enough new studies have been published to confidently reject both theories, the panel said. Especially convincing were a Danish study showing no difference in the rate of autism between children who got thimerosal-containing vaccines and those who did not and a British study showing no relationship between the introduction of MMR and autism rates, or between the timing of a vaccination and the onset of autism symptoms. "The vaccine hypotheses are not currently supported by the evidence," wrote the panel, which consisted of physicians, neuroscientists, epidemiologists, statisticians and a nurse.

    Skeptism is how science progresses. If you have read the "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" (had to do it for a class), you would see this is how science is forwarded. That said, studies has been published in both Europe and the U.S. clearly showing no link. Skeptism, when shown to be unfounded needs to be put to rest. Literally millions of lives have been saved by vaccination programs worldwide.

    The current theory favored by many experts is that autism is a genetically-based disorder that occurs before birth.
    Studies of persons with autism are finding abnormalities in brain structures that develop in the first few weeks of fetal development.

    The original report, published in the Lancet in 1995 included a editorial piece criticizing it, partly due to its very small study population (12 patients). Another facet of the story that is oft left out of the discussion is that the hypothesis, which had no data associated with it, was that perhaps the MMR vaccination prevents gut absorption of minerals and vitamins which caused the autism.

    Anyway, there is alot of data involving this, which I have referenced below. I would like to note that I have been taking this primarily from a piece written by Dr. Barrett. The collection is quite complete and slightly longish. Have a go at it.

    References

    • A question of harm. CNN & Time broadcast, Oct 3, 1999.
    • Liam's mother Shelley H. Reynolds founded and serves as president of Little Angels, an organization intended to "bring the issues of autism from individual homes to the forefront of national dialogue." Dr. Cave is a board member described on the Web site as "a leader and a fighter for the alternative therapies that seem to work with many of our children. She believes in using drugs as a last resort, concentr
    --
    Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
    1. Re:In brief.... by linefeed0 · · Score: 1
      OK, IANAB (I am not a biochemist :D), but there are some questions this analysis raises with me immediately, just as someone who's passed basic college-level biology and chemistry.

      If thiomersal is so safe, how the hell is it biologically effective? It's used as a bactericide, first. Other mercury compounds don't need to be broken down to be bioeffective, and some of them are known to accumulate in the body. What's to say this isn't true of thiomersal? It may be toxic and bioaccumulative without any significant chemical or enzymatic changes!

      Secondly, that autism is a developmental disorder does not in any way exclude that it may be biochemical or environmental in cause -- the wrong exposure at the wrong time. Nor is a genetic association incompatible with environmental exposure -- some individuals may be more genetically susceptible to various environmental factors in development.

      I know someone who is professionally involved with autism research, and he has started taking notes on the mercury/vaccines link. The evidence for it may be increasing. Need to find out more about this though.

  38. Do these vaccines go back in time after injection? by dtolman · · Score: 1

    Because how else do the proponents of this theory explain the inconvenient fact that Autism is actually linked to defects during fetal development? If the concern is about vaccines and brain development - then we should be working on preventing women or are trying to get pregnant, or are pregnant from getting them...

  39. Suicide deaths during anti-depressant trials by aminorex · · Score: 1
    --
    -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  40. The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1

    You seem to be just as much a victim of misinformation, relying, for instance, on a completely debunked Danish "study" for your argument. Just like in the case of Vioxx, pharma reports that draw on publicly available study data tend to draw the exact opposite conclusion of what the data itself suggests.

    Just the fact that a single thimerasol-containing vaccine (such as the flu shot) contains 40 times more mercury than the FDA guidelines allows for adults, and that these vaccines are given to infants ought to set off some warning bells.

    My firstborn son was diagnosed as autistic last January, at the age of 2 1/2. We had been increasinly concerned about his language delay, and specific stereotypical behaviors (hand flapping, head banging, etc). Looking back, we believe that these behaviors started appearing at around 18 months of age. Well -- guess what - during a 1-month period at that time, he had received 8 vaccines in 6 shots (including 5 vaccines in 3 shots on the day he got his MMR, and a flu shot 3 weeks later).

    My wife had also received some dental fillings (amalgam) during her pregnancy. Despite denials by the ADA, there is also statistically significant data that shows that recent dental fillings in pregnant women will cause autism. I participate in various discussion groups related to autism - and this, too, seems to be a recurring theme: Multiple dental fillings around the time of pregnancy.

    Then there is the genetic component. Some individuals are more prone to mercury poisoining than others. In partciular, individuals with a high level of early cognitive activity ("intelligence") are susceptible - because they tend to have higher releases of the peptite "glutamate" in their brains and nervous systems. (Glutamate, if not properly converted to GABA, and without proper levels of glutathione, will cause sensory overload - and over time kill a large percentage of nerve/brain cells in the body. Glutathione is normally produced in the liver, but this production is inhibited by mercury. For more scientific detail on this subject, see articles by Dr. Amy Yasko at www.autismanswer.com.

    The only reason there is any controversy around the link between mercury poisoning and autism (and for that matter, asperger's, ADHD, ADD, alzheimers, and parkinson's) is political: the self-interest of pharmaseutical companies like Merck, coupled with unwillingness to face the reality as seen in bodies and organizations like the Centers for Disease Control, National Institute of Health, and American Dental Association.

    1. Re:The link is definitely there. by stevesliva · · Score: 1

      I'll admit I don't know, but isn't the FDA standard for elemental mercury, while it is part of a chemical compound in themersol? I believe I've heard that distinction made elsewhere, but you don't mention it.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    2. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1

      This distinction, though maybe worth noting, has no bearing on the levels of mercury absorbed into your blood stream (liver, nervous system, etc). That's because the mercury in thimerasol (methyl mercury) is 90% absorbed by your body, wheras that in, say, fish & seafood (ethyl mercury) is only about 10% absorbed.

    3. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 1
      Your post is misleading. You are lumping in exposure well after Autism starts with exposure prior to birth. Autism is a disorder linked to pervasive developmental problems in the brain that start prior to birth, or _immediately_ after:

      http://www.unc.edu/~cory/autism-info/orgautsa.html

      http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/short/ awh330v1

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd= Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1593599 3

    4. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1

      What you say is a misinterpretation of the articles you quote. The vast majority of autistic children have no signs of autims until around 18-24 months of age (so-called "late onset autism"). Only a few children are autistic at birth or soon after.

      Only the first of the articles you point to talk about genetics at all - and this article in the context of predisposition. 20 years ago, individuals with the same facial characteristics (e.g. low corners in mouth) did not normally develop autism.

      My son, for example, was very alert, very playful, very communicative, and had very good eye contact until around 18-20 months. In fact, everything about him indicated that he was going to grow up to be a very bright kid. Gradually, from then on, symptoms started appearing (e.g. language delay, stereotypical behaviors). This, too, is consistent with the symtoms of mercury poisoning, which often take months to manifest.

      To explain this point: Autism is always accompanied by "gut" issues: Yeast overgrowth in the GI tract, damaged liver, inability to break down specific proteins/peptides (such as gluten and casein, which in turn results in glidaorphine and casomorphine - optoids for the brain). What actually happens is that the mercury inhibits specific metabolisms, such as the MTHTf cycle (see: Pathway diagrams). Once e.g. the production of glutathione is compromised, it will take months for the results of the glutamate/glutathione balance to affect the nerve cells to the point of killing them.

    5. Re:The link is definitely there. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Thimerosal contains ethylmercury(a flu shot contains about 25 micrograms mercury). The federal guidelines are directed mainly at methylmercury(<0.1 micrograms/per kg bodyweight/day) because that is what shows up in the food and water supply, and is where most people get the bulk of their mercury intake from. Hence, that is where most research has been directed. On the other hand, not much is known about the effects of ethylmercury because people don't take in very much of it. (On a side note, Tor's 90% vs. 10% absorption ratio for ethyl vs. methyl mercury is wrong even after correcting his mixing up of the two compounds.)

      If you look behind who is offering all of this criticism of thimerosal you are likely to find lobbyists(like Safe Minds), or profiteers(like the Geiers, a father-son duo who appear to be nothing more than shills for attorneys hoping to bilk the pharmaceutical companies for lots of $$$), or parents who think they have a chance at a slice of the pie. Some faction of the Republican party seems to turn up behind this shit as well. I have no clue how that happened. I thought trial lawyers were supposed to be in bed with the Democrats. At any rate, there isn't any good research yet showing a link between thimerosal and autistic spectrum disorders, and there is bunch of research that seems to indicate that the link just ain't there.

    6. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1
      Sorry, there are a lot of flaws in your statements (including the idea that there is any money to be had from suing the perpetrators, such as Ely Lily and Merck. Congress took care of protecting these in a piece of special interest legislation in 1988).

      Indeed, families with autistic children (such as ours) tend to suffer a large financial burden as a result of the government's negligence. My wife had to stop working to administer his special education program at home; this is more typical than not. We are spending a lot of money on various supplements (to restore liver health, and as a consequence mental health) and literature.

      In addition, this affects tax payers. As of 2005, 1 in 150 children in the USA is autistic. This puts a huge burden on school districts, and their special education budgets (which in order comes from state, and ultimately federal funds).

      I have a lot more to say on this topic, but
      • You hinted that you are a conservative Republican, of the kind that I have rarely found letting facts getting in the way of their ideology. You probably would not be persuaded by my first-hand experience with my son, nor by available research (not just studies, but actual science) that supports the Thimerasol-Autism link, and
      • You post as an AC. I don't want to spend too much effort and time in responding to someone who will not stand behind their statements.


    7. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 1
      I completely disagree. What happened to your family is tragic - but it wasn't infant mercury poisoning. The cause of his condition is not related to the shots, even if that occurred when symptoms first started to appear.

      Even though Autism is usually diagnosed at 1.5 to 2 years of age (or older), the condition itself is known to start at or before birth. It is known to not be caused by damage to the brain - but by developmental problems - studies from the past 5 years have consistently shown there are measureable differences which can be found prior to behavioral symptoms - in cranial size, distribution of grey/white matter in the brain, even measurable differences in proteins (which can be identified via blood tests currently under development).

    8. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1
      Maybe you can illustrate for me why mercury chelation (via TD-DPMS) does wonders for him, if this has nothing to do with mercury?

      Again, not to get too bogged down in a lengthy discussion (I have better things to do), but you ought to know that Autism is a multifactorial disorder. This means that - yes - genetics, such as large amounts of white matter in the brain - has a role, but that there are other factors as well. One of these is mercury. Another one is the part of the Thimerasol molecule that is left behind once the mercury has been dissolved into your bloodstream (this "turd" looks to the body like a DNA molecule, and thus gets absorbed in the body's DNA). Another one is the DPT and MMR vaccines themselves.

      I suggest you look at some of the science that lies behind these issues - not just the slanted interpretation of studies that is provided by NIH, CDC, or Merck. Good places to start are:
      • www.autismanswer.com - a bit on the technical side
      • www.generationrescue.org - more for lay people - but with a wealth of literature, references to studies, etc.


      Also worth noting is that there is not a single scientifically valid study that shows that Thimerasol is safe.

      -tor
    9. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 1

      Chelating... great... I have a gluten free diet and a bridge to sell you also.

      I hope you've also enrolled your son in an ABA program while you pursue a "cure".

    10. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1
      Yes, he has been enrolled in an ABA program, with OT and Speech Therapy as well, ever since he was diagnosed in January. This is helpful, no doubt, but where we really saw a difference was with biomedical treatments (such as carnintine supplements to repair the liver, and specific probiotics to help get rid of yeast in the GI tract), as well as - yes - chelation. Not only did his behaviour and language improve, but he no longer gets sick (he used to have frequent stumach flus etc), his stools are much better, and the dark rings under his eyes are gone.

      May I ask you: What stake do you have in this? Or to ask a different way: What qualifies you to have an informed opinion on the matter? What background do you have, and what literature do you read?

      Please refrain from statements like:
      Chelating... great... I have a gluten free diet and a bridge to sell you also.


      These do nothing to portray you as someone who is informed on these issues.
    11. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 1
      Stake? I have no *personal* stake, except for a desire to be as informed as possible on a variety of issues. As such, my personal knowledge comes from scientific journals, and reading over my wife's shoulder as she completed her doctorate in Pschology (plus reading the professional journals she brings home).

      As for being informed... I'll stick with serious journals instead of the delibrate misinformation that is put out there by "informational" websites. Why is it that the sites that mention the "1 in 150" nationwide incidence of Autism are the most likely to offer "cures" or offer to sue a drug company? Do you know where the "1 in 150" figure comes from? It comes from a delibrate misinterpretation of a CDC study that estimated 1/160 to 1/500 children have an Autistic _Spectrum_ Disorder (Full blown Autism was estimated at 1/1000 to 1/500). And this data was based off educational treatment needs - so its possible this isn't even fully accurate for medical diagnosis.

      I also notice that a large number of these "informational" sites overlook a number of documented, and peer-reviewed findings that indicate that whatever caused the problems started long before they were born. Did you look at the conclusions of studies I posted earlier? No? Let me sum up:

      -Autistic children showed signs of unusual head growth patterns that were detectable as early as 2 months! So at 2 months old (4 months before the first vaccination you can get), most autistic children are already showing signs of some sort of developmental disorder.

      -The brains of Autistic children do not form properly in early development. This isn't brain damage - its the result of improper brain growth! The brains of Autistic children are putting brain cells in the wrong places - and the balance of white/grey is completely wrong.

      -Autism has been linked to problems during the 4th week of embryonic development.

      So the unscrupulous still tell parents that Autism is something that only starts when the behavioral patterns are noticeable, even though researchers have known for years that Autism starts well before its possible to diagnose.

    12. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear - I have no doubt that there are Autistic children who suffer from immunological problems or digestive problems - and that they may get worse as a result of excessive exposure to gluten or mercury. But the idea that they *cause* Autism, or that removing them once the brain is already malformed can somehow cure it, is laughable, and completely goes against any serious study I've ever seen.

    13. Re:The link is definitely there. by MadAhab · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Don't be an idiot. Any parent who has had a kid with medical issues knows that before very long, you become far more aware of the daily ups and downs, ins and outs of the child's condition than any medical professional anywhere. And pretty soon, you get to know the little corner of science that affects your child very well.

      Hey, dummy, how do scientific hypotheses get formed? Scientists turn casual observations - "hmm, these dietary changes seem to improve symptoms of autism" - or logical conjectures - "hey, mercury is really fucking poisonous in general - shouldn't we look for negative effects from giving so much of an untested mercury-containing substance to babies?" - into formal studies blah blah blah. This takes time - but the observations of parents will be a critical link in this chain. Those parents report chelating to have a positive effect very consistently.

      Something else I'll tell you about parents and their children's medical problems: if you knew anything about dealing with a sick child - clearly you don't - you'd know that very easy in talking to parents to distinguish between overzealous, overoptimistic people who fool themselves and/or blame doctors at every opportunity and latch on to every quack cure in sight and those parents who are thoughtful, powerful agents in their child's care.

      The suppression of information reported in the Salon article is fucking scary - large scale epidemiological databases showing dead obvious connections, then said data is removed from public view permanently by officials with deep industry connections defending their own policies. Whether the thimoseral connection shakes out or not, that public health policy was made this way is incredibly fucking stupid. But you don't care as long as you can take the lazy pose of a skeptic.

      Science wouldn't progress quite so quickly without the parents observations being given credibility. Did you know that until the 1970s, most infant surgery - from circumcision on up - was done without anaesthesia? Why? Because scoffing skeptics like you (only with MDs) insisted their nervous systems were to immature to feel pain. In retrospect, we can see pretty clearly how stupidly obviously wrong that was. Striking a skeptical pose doesn't make you scientific, it just makes you arrogant enough to believe your version of things is "obvious" and others are "fooling themselves".

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    14. Re:The link is definitely there. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I have a lot more to say on this topic, but
      you would rather attack me based on your(incorrect) assumptions about my political affiliations and my choice to post anonymously. Your post hoc analysis of the causes of your childs autism are unconvincing. Your links to people quoting Safe Minds and the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons are unconvincing. I still see no credible science or research backing the autism-thimerosal link. I do see groups driven by various agendas trying to manipulate and misrepresent research in the area to their own ends. I am ideologically opposed to such dishonesty regardless of whether it is carried out by pharmaceutical companies or people attacking pharmaceutical companies.
    15. Re:The link is definitely there. by dtolman · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Idiot eh? I can tell that you did a really good job fact checking the article. Oh wait. You didn't - you just swallowed the whole thing without any critical thought. Maybe you should do some research before making YOURSELF look like an ass.


      The only thing that is "scary" about that article is what a serious hackjob and scare piece it is. The sad thing is that I had a lot - a lot - of repect for RFK Jr before that article.


      And don't take my word for it - please. Look it up for yourself. Take a look at the actual transcript of the meeting that RFK Jr sliced and diced from. Or if you're too lazy, look at the many blogs out there that have done the job for you. Autism Diva is a good place to start.

    16. Re:The link is definitely there. by Tor · · Score: 1
      The fact that you still point to genetics as the only cause of autism means that you did not at all get (or even try to get) what I wrote earlier.

      One more time: Autism (or more accurately, Autism Spectrum Disorders, ranging from full-blown Autism via Asperger's, to ADHD and ADD) is a multi-factorial disorder, or if you will, disease. One of these factors is genetic predisposition. But if that was the only factor, you could not explain why:
      • The number of autistic children has grown so epidemically over the last 20 years, even 10 years (Between 1992-2002, the Department of Education estimates that there has been a 714% increase in the number of autistic children. Today, the CDC acknowledges the number is about 1 in 166, even Eli Lilly, the maker of Thimerosal, says it's 1 in 150. In my neighbourhood, there are 3 autistic children, including my son; all of these are aged 2-4 years old).
      • Nearly all autistic children you'll meet were born in the late 1990s and early 2000s (coincidentally, as more and more vaccinations were added to the list mandated by the government)

      To put it differently - there is no such thing as an "genetic epidemic". Autism is by far and large an enviromental issue. The only thing that has changed so rapidly over the last 10-20 years in terms of environmental exposure is the number of vaccines that these kids are given.

      It is also a fact that the levels of mercury in these vaccines exceeds the levels approved by the FDA for adults 30-40 times. These vaccines are given starting at birth - to infants that do not even have fully developed liver functions. Moreover, ethyl mercury (found in vaccines) is probably more harmful than methyl mercury (found in seafood, and forms the basis for FDA's recommendation).

      To address your points one by one:

      • If your wife's degree is in Psychology, the professional journals she is reading are not very likely to deal with biomedical issues related to autism, such as the role of exitotoxic agents on the glutamate receptors in your nervous system. For this type of information, you are better off trying to understand some of the biomedical science that is performed in this area, such as that provided by Bernard Rimland & others at the Autism Research Institute. Another excellent, though somewhat technical, explanation of what is going on with regards to thimerasol, specific viruii in vaccines, and the body of autistic children, is provided by Dr. Amy Yasko. Unfortunately, only a fraction of this information is on her web site - but if you are really interested in this subject, I strongly recommend her books ("The Puzzle of Autism", and "The Power of RNA") along with her conference presentations (available on DVD via the same site). She boasts a near 100% recovery rate of the patients she is seeing - which are often the hardest ones - those for whom traditional chelation (via DPMS or DMSA) failed to work.
      • Beware that there are siginifcant amounts of "bad" science conducted under direct or indirect sponsorship of pharmaseuticals, such as Merck, that will seek to discredit links between Thimerasol and Autism (just like they were doing "resarch" do discredit the link between Vioxx and heart failures in some patients). For instance, referalls to the so-called "Danish Study" are often used to "prove" that there is no link - wheras in reality this "study" (actually it was not a real study, just a snippet of government data extracted by the main Danish producer of Thimerasol-containing vaccines) would show the opposite. See this link for a more detailed explanation.
      • Thimerasol has never been evaluated for use in humans by either the manufacturer (Ely Lily), the pharmaseuticals that use it (Merck, Avent
  41. Link Correction by Tor · · Score: 1

    That site should be:
    www.autismanswer.com

  42. Re:Art Bell by TheMadcapZ · · Score: 1

    So genetically, a shitload of the population just happened to mutate at the same time when previous generations had not autism? Use some common sense, what makes more sense, genetic mutation on a grand scale, or environmental effects on the whole population? And where is this genetic evidence that you speak of??

  43. Chelation IS the key! by JPyObjC+Dude · · Score: 1

    Thimerasol is a source of Mercury as is many other sources. Mercury is known to cause autistic symptoms caused from nurological degredation, nutritional deficiencies and digestive imbalances.

    The issue with all the research is the assumption that all bodies are the same and we all know that this is not the case with the human body.

    The key process that is extremely important is Chelation which is a natural process. Some of us are better than others at it. This natural chelation process, if missing will greatly increse the potential to build up mercury, and other toxic substances in the body.

    The problem with all this research is that they are currently unable to measure this chelative ability of test subjects and as such have a sketchy baseline to form any conclusions on.

    It may be possible to avoid issues like autism by doing the following:
    - Avoid mercury and other toxic substances from getting into the body
    --- Avoid Thimerasol, fatty meats, large body fish, other specific seafoods ...
    - Increase natural chelators to assist the body in removing these toxic substances from the body --- Silantro is a fantastic natural chelator and should be in everybodies diet.

    Use your common sense, If a particle is known to be toxic, you should remove that substance. That is what chelation is all about.

    1. Re:Chelation IS the key! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So...if mercury is so bad, have you replaced all your mercury amalgam fillings with ceramic/porcelain/resin ones?

      Probably not.

      Just another parent yelling at his kids to wear their bike helmets when he doesn't...

    2. Re:Chelation IS the key! by JPyObjC+Dude · · Score: 1

      Do not assume that everybody is a hippocrate.

      I had all silver amalgm fillings removed 6 years ago!

    3. Re:Chelation IS the key! by arete · · Score: 1

      Not a field I'm an expert in, but my recollection is that there are now silver fillings containing no mercury.

      --
      Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
  44. Re:Art Bell by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
    Funding research for you to exploit isn't "doing good". It's just a matter of "doing business"
    Maybe you missed economics 101. The whole point of capitalism is to rig a society so that in order to make money you need to do something that other people want in order to convince them to pay you. So there's absolutely no incompatibility between "doing good" and "doing business". Pharmaceutical companies need to do decades of expensive research to find good drugs. Record companies just need a recording studio.
    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  45. Name Your Poison by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    So pharmacos get to count "marketing" their poison drugs to the FDA as part of their "marketing" budget? Because they claim that marketing costs are the majority of the costs of bringing new drugs to market. Including the ones that fail in the lab, but pass the boardroom with flying colors.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  46. Amish by azav · · Score: 1

    How many Amish get autism? ow many Amish children get vaccines?

    Using this approach, there is a strong link between vaccines and autism and between vaccines with thimerosal and autism.

    I do believe there was a 60 Minutes report on this recently.

    --
    - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
  47. Thimerosal? by mangu · · Score: 1
    Isn't the name of the compound Thiomersal?


    The radix "thio" comes from the greek "theio", meaning sulphur. Thiomersal contains both mercury and sulphur and is the active ingredient in Merthiolate, a shortening of "mercurothiolate".

  48. Re:Art Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Assortative mating + selective pressure. Thanks to the computer age, suddenly Asperger's isn't such a bad thing any more. So you have all these bright people moving to Silicon Valley and other tech meccas, marrying each other, and giving birth to a surprisingly large proportion of Autistic and Asperger's kids.

    Not just my opinion. There've been studies on this.

  49. There is no spoon by n54 · · Score: 1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectancy_effect
    1. go
    2. read
    3. profit
    p.s. it took 5 seconds to find
    --
    this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
  50. Re:Art Bell by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    A crackhead can't get a rider written into the Patriot Act

    Well, GW isn't talking about his past drug use, so we're not sure if that's true or not

  51. Re:Art Bell by jthayden · · Score: 1
    I have seen many claims that essentialy the drop in mental retardation matches the rise in autism. Essentially we've exchanged a generic diagnosis for a more specific one. Nothing in reality has changed, simply what we call it has.

    Also, there is some cursory evidence to suggest autism is at least affected by something on the x chromosone. The rate of autism in boys is much higher than in girls, but when girls do have it, it tends to be much more severe. Essentially the belief is that if you have two x chromosones, and one of them is bad the other can compensate and you just end up on the low side of normal. If you are stuck with XY, it is more difficult to compensate and you end up diagnosed as autistic. If you have two bad X, you're just diagnosed as severely autistic.

    It is likely that it is neither purely genetic nor purely environmental but some combination of factors needs to arrise. Hence it is so difficult to diagnose exactly what is going on.

  52. Another point... by Tor · · Score: 1

    I forgot to mention this, based on my personal insight:

    Both my own son, and one of the other kids in our neighbourhood who is going through DMPS chelation, are now "dumping" large amounts of mercury from their bodies (as seen in urine tests, and more informally via so-called "detox rashes" on their skin). Simultaneously, they are both acquiring language and social skills at a rate that would not be possible by ABA, OT, or ST alone.

    One more point of data for your reference.

  53. uh... you're arguing about views I don't have. by dtolman · · Score: 1
    I can see that you have a lot of strong feelings on this. But uh... what are you actually responding to? Your points don't address anythign I talked about... please - hear me out - let me try again - I'll try to boil down what I'm talking about. And please - please - please - read everything twice before responding. I'm really trying to have a meaningful discussion, but it seems that you're projecting some sort of viewpoint on me that I don't have.

    First off - I wrote about that "1 in 150" figure already. Its a misreading of the CDC data. See my post up the chain on that. But forget about that - its a tangental issue.

    Second - I'm not disputing that Mercury could be responsible. But I do dispute that childhood vaccines are the cause - though they could be accelerating or compounding the problem - they CAN'T be the ultimate cause. (please read ALL my other points before responding).

    Third - You have this bizarre idea that if something goes wrong before birth, its genetic. Fetal Development issues DOES NOT mean Genetic. In fact - a rise in rates imply ENVIRONMENTAL reasons. Yes - environmental. Such as Mercury, or other toxins.

    Fourth - My main point - Is that studies from the past 5 years show that Autism starts during fetal development. As in, before they were born, their brains were forming incorrectly. And I don't mean slightly wrong, or have tendancies that may not become Autism. I mean that Autistic children are now known to be already long down the path long before behavioral issues are noticed. So children can seem perfectly fine for a while - Just like Alzheimers - which starts well before it is noticeable - Autism may need some time to compound before the brain abnormalities interfere with behavior.

    Fifth - I've posted the links, and summaries before. For some reason you just won't read them, or automatically assume that these articles about development issues = genetic problem. There are plenty of infants out there with gross deformities and perfectly fine genes. Fetal Alchohol Syndrome is a well known example.

    Just to summarize - thanks to new research, Autism is now known (not just suspected) to start before birth, though still only detectable once children are 1-2 years old. If Autism starts before birth, then childhood vaccines can't be the ultimate cause. I have posted links to studies and articles that are undisputed. Mercury could be responsible. But at worst vaccines given to infants are just making a bad situation worse. They can't be the ultimate cause.

    1. Re:uh... you're arguing about views I don't have. by Tor · · Score: 1
      Here is a direct quote from you:
      Chelating... great... I have a gluten free diet and a bridge to sell you also.

      I hope you've also enrolled your son in an ABA program while you pursue a "cure".


      What was that? When you mock chelation, gluten free diets, and "cures", aren't you inferring that:
      • This has nothing to do with mercury? (Hence, chelation is a ridiculous thing to do)
      • Autism is incurable (something which is proven to be incorrect), and
      • The only thing that works is therapy (like ABA)


      The one in 150 figure is correct enough for the purposes of our discussion. We are not talking only about full-blown traditional autism, but about a spectrum of developmental disorders with the same/similar causes. In fact, I would not say that my son has classical "autism", though his professional diagnosis was Autistic Disorder.

      All this said, I agree with your point that autism is not caused by vaccines alone. (Specifically, in my son's case, a part of the picture is proably that my wife had dental amalgams placed in her teeth while being pregnant with him - causing some release of mercury into her system over the next few days and months). There is also a genetic aspect, as well as an susceptability caused by strep infection at the time when vaccines are given. Hence my reference to the "multifactorial" aspect of it.

      There is no question, however, that the trigger that caused the overt symtoms (i.e. the "autistic" classification) are 3-4 factors found in vaccines:
      • Mercury release from Thimerasol
      • The remaining part of Thimerasol, which mimics RNA and DNA in your body, and thus become stably integrated into cells
      • Live viruii from the DPT vaccine
      • Live viruii from the MMR vaccine

      Anyway - I think at this point we are probably just debating semantics. Unless you have something new to add, I'll stop after this post.

  54. Please remember... by relaxrelax · · Score: 1


    The unethical truth-dodging of the vaccine industry and the numerous conflicts of interests running in the 10000 times the typical researcher's salary are NOT proof that vaccines causes autism. ...only proof that the industry doesn't know for sure that it is safe, so they don't take chances. It could be safe; they just don't know.

    And by the way. The vaccine-strain smallpox found in the gut of some autistics could be just that autistics have porous gut. Could be related to autism but not the cause at all! Same goes for any peculiarity of mercury metabolism including the famous metallothionen study.

    Do not see "proof of cause" where there could be only statistical correlation!! ...but be weary anyway; it is afterall a non-watchdogged monopoly who attaches liability immunity paragraphs to Homeland security type bills at the last minute without telling the politicians before the vote.

    Just don't be surprised if mercury is proven non-cause of autism someday (but still causes mercury poisoning).

    --
    Microsoft is pure dog-ma. FreeBSD is pure cat-ma.
  55. Re:Art Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MadCapz, your assertion is false. Ever read a reasearch journal article? Try it sometime.

  56. Very old news by bob_calder · · Score: 1

    If you can call it news, it's really old.

    --
    Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)