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Share FIles? Get Fired.

The_Other_Kelly writes "The Guardian is running an interesting story, 'File-share defender fired over TV show', where a news organisation, upon discovering that someone who spoke publicly elsewhere to defend p2p file sharing, was one of their employees, promptly fired him. "

31 comments

  1. He didn't get fired for sharing files by slavemowgli · · Score: 5, Informative

    He didn't get fired for sharing anything. He got fired because he earlier run what seems to have been a BitTorrent tracker in his spare time, was sued over it (in a civil case, not a criminal case), and didn't tell his employer when they interviewed him, so they only found out when he talked about it on a TV show.

    He argues that he didn't have to mention it since it doesn't have anything to do with his employer, and I think depending on how the interview went exactly, he's probably right. If they actually asked him about whether there were any civil cases pending against him and he lied and said no, then it's understandable that he got fired (it's not like it's a personal question, after all); but if they didn't, then I really think it's their own fault, and he's right in any case when he says that the whole thing simply doesn't affect his employer in any way.

    In any case, it's important to note that he did not himself share any files.

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    1. Re:He didn't get fired for sharing files by sycotic · · Score: 2, Funny


      In any case, it's important to note that he did not himself share any files.


      Suuuuuuuuuuure he didn't, we all believe him...

      --
      -- If I were a fish, I'd be wet
    2. Re:He didn't get fired for sharing files by cbreaker · · Score: 1

      You can't be asked whether or not there's any civil cases "pending" against you. In fact, in the US you can only be asked to disclose any felony charges that have been *judged* against you.

      Even asking the question is illegal, and both asking AND denying employment because of it would be doubly illegal.

      Not to mention, until you've had a judgement ruled against you, you're innocent. If I sued you for stealing my PC (even though I don't know you, or I'm mistaken,) would you go and tell everyone you interviewed for that you have a civil case pending against you?

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
  2. Interesting legal question by Sanity · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To what extent can an opinion about intellectual property (or any other law) form grounds for dismissal?

    IMHO it is the right, indeed the obligation of anyone living in a democracy to question the laws that govern them. Intellectual property laws are increasingly valid targets for such scepticism.

    There would be an uproar in most countries if someone was fired for expressing their opinion on abortion, or religion, why should someone's opinion on intellectual property law be any different?

    1. Re:Interesting legal question by NexusTw1n · · Score: 3, Informative

      If the company was an abortion clinic and the opinion expressed by the employee was anti-abortion, then there would be no uproar if they were fired.

      He expressed anti copyright and IP views, while working for a firm that relies on copyright and IP. In addition he was only working there for a week, all companies insist on a probabtion period of at least a month to see if your face fits, with instant dismissal if you don't. So he is going to have trouble winning his case.

      Yes it isn't nice that your freedom of speech is curtailed by your employer, but there are plenty of precedents for it - from the aforementioned abortion example, through to the Police in the UK at least not being allowed to express racist views even when not on duty.

      --
      It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
    2. Re:Interesting legal question by fuzzybunny · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry, but it's disingenuous to compare racist comments to what this guy was saying. Frankly, unless these comments were made in a work environment, it's none of the employer's business if the gentleman in question is a card carrying member of the national front, american communist party, or whatever other radical group you can think of, unless he commits blatantly illegal acts and is prosecuted for it.

      Last I checked, the UK has several anti-hate speech laws, and I imagine that police (and other similarly sensitive) employment is tied to fairly stringent standards of personal behavior. We're talking about a civil suit, not prosecutable views.

      Similarly, the idea of comparing anti-abortion statements made by a hypothetical employee of an abortion clinic to this is a huge stretch. Naturally, the man's company "relies" on IP. Most companies do, it is in the nature of many technical companies. He is, however, not questioning the fundamental nature of IP, nor can you compare the issue of IP in any way shape or form to the abortion debate, no matter what side of it you are on.

      As far as being allowed to dismiss him for whatever reason, although the UK has fairly lenient employment laws, I do not believe that it has the equivalent of what in the US are called "at-will" states, in which you can fire anyone for any reason (assuming the reason is not discriminatory or otherwise against the law.) In this case, you could, for example, ditch an employee for having a sticker of a political candidate you do not support on his/her car in the company parking lot--IANAL, so feel free to correct me.

      --
      Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
    3. Re:Interesting legal question by Sanity · · Score: 3, Interesting
      If the company was an abortion clinic and the opinion expressed by the employee was anti-abortion, then there would be no uproar if they were fired.
      If the employee had not allowed their opinion to affect their work performance, then I see no justification for firing them, and I strongly suspect that the law wouldn't either.
      He expressed anti copyright and IP views, while working for a firm that relies on copyright and IP.
      Ah, so you can only be fired if your boss happens to disagree with you. Right...

      My firm relies on copyright, and I am extremely critical of intellectual property law. I believe that many aspects of intellectual property law hurt my company.

      all companies insist on a probabtion period of at least a month to see if your face fits, with instant dismissal if you don't.
      Um, wrong, mine doesn't. Either way, having a probation period is not a license to fire someone for whatever reason you like.
      through to the Police in the UK at least not being allowed to express racist views even when not on duty.
      Ah, because criticising intellectual property law is just like expressing a racist view. Is this were you accuse me of being just like Hitler?
    4. Re:Interesting legal question by NexusTw1n · · Score: 0
      Frankly, unless these comments were made in a work environment, it's none of the employer's business if the gentleman in question is a card carrying member of the national front, american communist party, or whatever other radical group you can think of
      I used the Police and racism as a random example. If you want others - the Police and Armed Forces are not allowed to be members of any political party, they are allowed to vote of course, but not be card carying members of any political group.

      If you want another example, your career wouldn't last long if you went on TV and said Product X by Company Y is the best product on the market, when your firm was making a competing product.

      Appear on TV as a campaigner to have dogs banned as pets while working for a Dog Food company and see how long you last.

      There are a thousand examples where your free speech is curtailed by your employer even outside of work.

      I do not believe that it has the equivalent of what in the US are called "at-will" states, in which you can fire anyone for any reason
      No, which is why most companies stipulate probationary periods, at the end of which, if you haven't been satisfactory, you can be fired.
      This period may cover punctuality, technical abilities, dress code, and personality (hidden away under "effective team player"). In this example, they would argue he wasn't sufficiently "on message" regarding the corporate view on IP, making him a rebel, and a poor team player.

      It's crap, but it's been the case since the concept of employment was first thought of.
      --
      It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
    5. Re:Interesting legal question by takeya · · Score: 1

      He probably signed a contract accepting that he could be terminated at any time for any reason that his employer saw fit.

      Private companies do not have any obligation to keep employees, and can fire them on a whim. The government just doesn't have the right under the constitution to regulate the private sector's hiring and firing.

    6. Re:Interesting legal question by NexusTw1n · · Score: 1
      Ah, because criticising intellectual property law is just like expressing a racist view.
      Well no, I never said that, it is just one of thousands of examples the exist. Any sane company will have a clause in their employee contracts that covers bringing the company into disrepute in or out of work.

      Is this were you accuse me of being just like Hitler?
      Good grief. Over react much? Congratulations on invoking Godwin's law. This thread is now over.
      --
      It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
    7. Re:Interesting legal question by Sanity · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well no, I never said that, it is just one of thousands of examples the exist. Any sane company will have a clause in their employee contracts that covers bringing the company into disrepute in or out of work.
      And such a clause would be unenforceable if used to stifle employee's political opinions.
      Good grief. Over react much? Congratulations on invoking Godwin's law. This thread is now over.
      You haven't actually read Godwin's law, have you? You probably should before you start accusing people of invoking it.
    8. Re:Interesting legal question by adoarns · · Score: 1
      If the company was an abortion clinic and the opinion expressed by the employee was anti-abortion, then there would be no uproar if they were fired.

      Anti-abortion -> no abortions for anyone.
      Anti-copyright -> people still make creative works and profit by them.

      Plus, I wouldn't fire someone in my abortion clinic just for expressing anti-abortion opinions; if it interfered with her ability to provide safe abortions to women who choose to get them, then she'd be gone, but until then, meh.
      --
      Tenemus pyrobolos atqui jacimus cognitiones.
    9. Re:Interesting legal question by cellaboy · · Score: 1

      Probationary periods in UK companies are fairly standard and usually from 3 to 6 months. During this period it is relatively easy for any firm to get rid of an employee they feel they have made a mistake hiring. After that period, _even if you then get a contract_ (which while the law, frequently is delayed for as long as the firm feel they can get away with it), you effectively have absolute minimal rights until you have worked for the company for 2 years continuously.

      Even then, in the UK it is standard to include a clause in the contract of employment that states that the contract can be changed or added to by the company at any time just by posting a notice on the designated notice board (v small writing, covered by people selling sh1te etc). Very often there is the "standard" notice (and or clause in contract) saying that all policies must be adhered to... i.e. make bl33din well sure you read your email and the noticeboard properly and sign nothing, ever, burn the lawyers, make them scream :-)

    10. Re:Interesting legal question by Dave114 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If the company was an abortion clinic and the opinion expressed by the employee was anti-abortion, then there would be no uproar if they were fired.


      If the employee had not allowed their opinion to affect their work performance, then I see no justification for firing them, and I strongly suspect that the law wouldn't either.


      Here's a story that erupted up in Canada some time back , regarding the cancellation of a hospital cleaning contract which seemed to result from the fact that one of the company's owners was opposed to abortion. In this case, the location being cleaned was not even that of an abortion clinic. (The story was in the major papers around here, but given that this happened probably at least a year ago now, those papers no longer have copies of their articles online and hence I've pulled something from another source - if you find a better article feel free to post it)

    11. Re:Interesting legal question by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      It really depends if they are an "at will" state. You can lay anybody off for any reason (which means govt unemployment insurance) BUT firing means they have to have violated certain state regulated principles. STuff like stealing, injuring, and that sort of thing are usually on at-will state mandages.

      --
    12. Re:Interesting legal question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, yeah, sure, any protection the government gives against injustices to the small people is communism. Go to hell, you fucking fascist. He's not trying to excuse underperformance, he's trying to fight being fired for a fucking OPINION. Rights don't do anyone any good if the government is the only one prevented from taking them from you.

    13. Re:Interesting legal question by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 1
      Plus, I wouldn't fire someone in my abortion clinic just for expressing anti-abortion opinions; if it interfered with her ability to provide safe abortions to women who choose to get them, then she'd be gone, but until then, meh.

      Yes, but... I would have some nagging doubts about why she wants to be there.

    14. Re:Interesting legal question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what? Fuck the small people. I'm not responsible for your underperforming ass either. Just quit your shit and go on welfare if you need the handholding so fuckin bad. Getting fired because your employer doesn't want you working for him anymore isn't an injustice, it's fucking life. You goddam leftist whiners always want people that can make something out of themselves to make something out of you too. Fuck your lazy shitass commie bitch punk bullshit.

    15. Re:Interesting legal question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy isn't based in the US!

      He's a one of us Brits and as such, we have pretty good employment law which means you can't be just fired on the whim of an employer!

      I can see a court hearing for this.........

  3. I shared work's OpenOffice ISO image... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...and I got fired, too.

    Er, no, wait...

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  4. Yo Hemos! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    How about acting like an editor for a change and getting rid of the capital 'I' in the story title?!

    1. Re:Yo Hemos! by DrSkwid · · Score: 2, Informative

      Y, because we lIke you

      Jeesh, now "editors" can't even type!

      http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/04/115 252
      In SIlicon Valley: Profits up. Employment Down.
      Businesses | Posted by Hemos on 04/07/05 12:45

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  5. Nothing is going to change until we shoot the bast by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 1

    Nothing is going to change until we shoot the bastards.

    Andy Out!

  6. RFTA: He didn't just speak; he ran a tracker by ToastyKen · · Score: 1

    The /. summary is misleading. He didn't just express views; he actually ran a tracker at one point and was sued over it.

    Now, you can argue about whether or not it was right of the employer to fire him for that, but they did NOT fire him merely because he spoke out in support of file sharing.

    1. Re:RFTA: He didn't just speak; he ran a tracker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the article on The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/04/brit_sacke d_for_newsnight/, you'll see that he was sued *before* he got the current job. So, I would presume his recent employers knew of this before even hiring the guy. It's therefore unlikely they'd fire him for it - seeing as it was all over with before he'd been employed in the first place.

    2. Re:RFTA: He didn't just speak; he ran a tracker by The_Other_Kelly · · Score: 1
      Sorry! "Upon mature reflection", I phrased that quite badly. The article itself is fairly clear ...
      • He ran a Torrent tracker site
      • He got subponaed
      • He ignored the subponae, on the quite reasonable basis that he is not subject to US law
      • Yes, he did not inform his new employer, that he could be party to a civil lawsuit in another country.
      • He gives an interview on TV covering the issue.
      • His employer (or just the IT director) sees this interview and freaks, kicking him out.

      Perhaps he should have informed his employer, which is what I hoped to hear other people's opinions on.

      But, in what is now common, his employer, without any discussion, simply terminated him (within trial period or not).

      Which brings me to my point, and comment on the "Zeitgeist":
      Dissent is now simply, not tolerated.

      --
      (R)ule in Hell or (S)erve in Heaven [R]?
  7. Defamation ? by mge · · Score: 1

    From the Article:
    "Mr Hanff has declared that he is opposed to copyright and intellectual property laws. Since much of our business is based around the protection of our copyright and intellectual property, we consider our dismissal of Mr Hanff entirely justified and appropriate."

    If true, then they have a good reason;
    else begin defamation case

  8. legal questions by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 1

    "If the company was an abortion clinic and the opinion expressed by the employee was anti-abortion, then there would be no uproar if they were fired."

    Huh? If that was his personal opinion, yes, it *would* cause an uproar.

    "all companies insist on a probabtion period of at least a month to see if your face fits, with instant dismissal if you don't."

    O, I see, you are talking about the anglo-saxon system. That explains a lot of your reasonings.

    Well, since it's in the UK: fair enough.

    Note, however, that most of your arguments are completely unvalid if you place them against the employement-ethics and laws of most european countries on the mainland. So, there is nothing 'obvious' or 'natural' about it; it's just that the system is pretty fucked up in the neo-liberal free-market, anglo-saxon style. I would say caution is needed, and not blind acceptance of a mentality that deems it's OK to dismiss an employee because his personal opinion doesn't stroke with that of a company.

    But, I know, in the UK and USA, it's the corporations that have the most sway, not the people.

    --
    --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
  9. dupe! by suttree.com · · Score: 1

    At least my story got more than ~80 replied!

    :-p

  10. dupe! by suttree.com · · Score: 1

    At least my story got more than ~80 replies!

    :-p